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Traffic Bots Against the TOS of LL?

Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
09-04-2008 18:59
From: Chris Norse
If they don't care about bots they won't be turned away. What is wrong with educating them to your practices?


Because some will care!

:eek:
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
09-05-2008 00:17
From: Phil Deakins



From: Sling Trebuchet

So it's OK to abuse something until you are caught.

No.

From: Sling Trebuchet

So it's OK to spam a search engine until they delist you.

Yes.



Interesting.
So the search engine wouldn't be delisting you because they considered the spamming to be an abuse.
They would be delisting you because it was Tuesday?

OR
Is it that even if the search engine considered the spamming to be an abuse, it's not really abuse because..........
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
09-05-2008 02:32
From: Chris Norse
If they don't care about bots they won't be turned away. What is wrong with educating them to your practices?
It's just a stupid idea. And they know about my practises. I am ranked at or near the top of the results, and I see what my listings say I sell. What's more to know?
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Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
09-05-2008 02:37
From: Sling Trebuchet
Interesting.
So the search engine wouldn't be delisting you because they considered the spamming to be an abuse.
Correct.

From: Sling Trebuchet
They would be delisting you because it was Tuesday?
You harm your cause with such frequent sillinesses.

From: Sling Trebuchet
OR
Is it that even if the search engine considered the spamming to be an abuse, it's not really abuse because..........
First, let's see a search engine say that it's an abuse. The opinions of people with axes to grind are unreliable.
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Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 02:48
From: Colette Meiji
Because some will care!

:eek:


They're more likely to find it boring.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
09-05-2008 03:06
If some would care, then they should do what some people here point to a lot - look at the green dots. Perhaps those who would care already do that, and they never enter my store. Am I supposed to wipe their behinds for them - those who might care?

The vast majority don't care one way or the other. The majority don't even know what traffic bots are. Perhaps I should write a lengthy notecard for them, explaining it all in detail - and boring the pants off them. The idea is so stupid.

Another reason why it's stupid is, suppose that a few do know about traffic bots, and prefer not to shop at places that use them. What business person in their right mind would push the info into their faces and lose their custom? If they care, it takes only a few seconds for them to check the map for green dots. If they don't do that, it's their own choice. Don't expect a shopkeeper to stand at the door and tell people that they may not want to shop here because of this or that. It's such a stupid idea. If they can't be bothered to spend a few seconds opening the map, why should anyone else be bothered for them?
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Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Patasha Marikh
Here to watch the show
Join date: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 294
09-05-2008 04:04
From: Phil Deakins
The word "spam" is used for unsolicited email and such, but that's not it's original use on the web. It was first used by the search engines themselves - .


Actually not, the first wide use of it was when a law firm in the southwest begin cross posting their ads for imigration aide in the early 90's. It was around before then, actually from the BBS days, when there were no search engines.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html

google is your friend.
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
09-05-2008 04:52
From: Phil Deakins
If some would care, then they should do what some people here point to a lot - look at the green dots. Perhaps those who would care already do that, and they never enter my store. Am I supposed to wipe their behinds for them - those who might care?

The vast majority don't care one way or the other. The majority don't even know what traffic bots are. Perhaps I should write a lengthy notecard for them, explaining it all in detail - and boring the pants off them. The idea is so stupid.

Another reason why it's stupid is, suppose that a few do know about traffic bots, and prefer not to shop at places that don't use them. What business person in their right mind would push the info into their faces and lose their custom? If they care, it takes only a few seconds for them to check the map for green dots. If they don't do that, it's their own choice. Don't expect a shopkeeper to stand at the door and tell people that they may not want to shop here because of this or that. It's such a stupid idea. If they can't be bothered to spend a few seconds opening the map, why should anyone else be bothered for them?


So you are saying if I read this right you prefer customers that are ignorant of your business practices? Or are you saying you are focused on those that don't know better, which implies possibly that you want the consumer to be kept in the dark about things so you can get the money.

Because anyway I read that it's profit > integrity in regard to your customers.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 05:00
From: MortVent Charron
Because anyway I read that it's profit > integrity in regard to your customers.


If Phil didn't respond to his paying customers then you'd have a point. For example if they were delivered the wrong item, or the item didn't work as described. That's where Phil's customer service is important.

Attracting customers to his store is an issue between Phil and other business owners, the same as any business anywhere in SL or RL.

Linden Lab themselves engage in practices that annoy their customers for what they see as the greater good of their products and services as a whole.
eku Zhong
Apocalips = low prims
Join date: 27 May 2008
Posts: 752
09-05-2008 05:02
From: MortVent Charron
So you are saying if I read this right you prefer customers that are ignorant of your business practices? Or are you saying you are focused on those that don't know better, which implies possibly that you want the consumer to be kept in the dark about things so you can get the money.

Because anyway I read that it's profit > integrity in regard to your customers.

sounds a lot like NIKE... :eek:
I suppose you dont own a pair, do you? ^^
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
09-05-2008 05:07
From: Ciaran Laval
If Phil didn't respond to his paying customers then you'd have a point. For example if they were delivered the wrong item, or the item didn't work as described. That's where Phil's customer service is important.

Attracting customers to his store is an issue between Phil and other business owners, the same as any business anywhere in SL or RL.

Linden Lab themselves engage in practices that annoy their customers for what they see as the greater good of their products and services as a whole.


So a company can use any techniques they want to sell a product, and as long as they handle issues from that product it's all good for the consumers?
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
09-05-2008 05:07
From: eku Zhong
sounds a lot like NIKE... :eek:
I suppose you dont own a pair, do you? ^^


nope
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 05:09
From: MortVent Charron
So a company can use any techniques they want to sell a product, and as long as they handle issues from that product it's all good for the consumers?


Within the bounds of the law yes and if you think they don't then you're very naive.
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
09-05-2008 05:16
From: Ciaran Laval
Within the bounds of the law yes and if you think they don't then you're very naive.


Well I just want the ones saying what they are doing is good for the consumer to admit it's not for the consumer, but their greed.

I know companies are driven usually by greed, but even so there are many that limit what they do simply because they have business ethics they rely on that don't include anything for to make a buck.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
09-05-2008 05:26
From: Ciaran Laval
If Phil didn't respond to his paying customers then you'd have a point. For example if they were delivered the wrong item, or the item didn't work as described. That's where Phil's customer service is important.

Attracting customers to his store is an issue between Phil and other business owners, the same as any business anywhere in SL or RL.

Linden Lab themselves engage in practices that annoy their customers for what they see as the greater good of their products and services as a whole.



Lying for the greater good of us all ... how ... noble.

And of course no one should have to be made aware they are being lied to... that would just confuse the poor consumer wouldn't it? No profit in that now is there?

I am utterly aware that I am naive in the nuances of subversive business practices. But somehow it hasn't stopped me from being a successful business owner IRL. Plus, I get to sleep at night knowing I make my living being upfront and honest with the people who give me money. Shitty business practice, maybe, but definately better for the people I serve.

From: Phil Deakins
Another reason why it's stupid is, suppose that a few do know about traffic bots, and prefer not to shop at places that don't use them. What business person in their right mind would push the info into their faces and lose their custom?


The crux of the matter in point... I make more money lying and I'd be a fool not to lie. Besides, I lie for the greater good of everyone, because after I lie to them and take their money I offer them excellent customer service.

But you don't have to lie first to give excellent customer service. And by not lying, you don't have to worry about driving away potential business.

So... not lying can be just as good for business, can be profitable, and doesn't offend anyone.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 05:29
From: MortVent Charron
Well I just want the ones saying what they are doing is good for the consumer to admit it's not for the consumer, but their greed.


Ah now that's a fair point. I also think those arguing against the usage of bots and paid picks should admit that their motivation is financial too, they don't like the practices employed, won't engage in them but the bottom line is often that they think they should be making more money. I don't see this argument from either side as being about anything other than making money.

Consumers need more options in search to be able to make comparisons between products and services.

From: MortVent Charron
I know companies are driven usually by greed, but even so there are many that limit what they do simply because they have business ethics they rely on that don't include anything for to make a buck.


There are certainly some business ethics that are cringeworthy, the cheesier ones generally get exposed and sometimes the truth comes out, Gerald Ratner is a classic example there.
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 05:36
From: Pie Psaltery
The crux of the matter in point... I make more money lying and I'd be a fool not to lie. Besides, I lie for the greater good of everyone, because after I lie to them and take their money I offer them excellent customer service.

But you don't have to lie first to give excellent customer service. And by not lying, you don't have to worry about driving away potential business.

So... not lying can be just as good for business, can be profitable, and doesn't offend anyone.


Where's the lie? He doesn't lie about using bots. A lie would be listing a product that you don't offer or trying to pretend he doesn't use bots.

He'd be a fool to stop using bots at this point in time? Absolutely. I don't like traffic bots, I don't see what they add to the world as a whole but I can easily see why someone using them isn't going to want to stop using them at this moment in time.

By not using bots at this point in time he's more likely to lose more customers than he currently does because of his use of bots. That's due to the system currently in place.

However there are many ways to skin a cat and people should do what makes them comfortable. When they cross lines and start gettng AR'd people need to shape up or ship out.
Gabriele Graves
Always and Forever, FULL
Join date: 23 Apr 2007
Posts: 6,205
09-05-2008 05:41
From: Ciaran Laval
Ah now that's a fair point. I also think those arguing against the usage of bots and paid picks should admit that their motivation is financial too, they don't like the practices employed, won't engage in them but the bottom line is often that they think they should be making more money. I don't see this argument from either side as being about anything other than making money.
Wrong assumption. I am a case in point. I argue against the use of scummy business tactics here to drive business and yet my SL business is not dependent on traffic, keywords, picks or in fact search. It is mostly word of mouth and I have only a very small vendor presence. Incidentally I also do very well and can sleep at night knowing my customers are not deceived in any way by me.
It is not necessarily financial the motivation for those opposed.
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Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
09-05-2008 05:48
From: Ciaran Laval
Where's the lie?



Name: Prim Savers
Traffic: 31807


That second line there would be the lie. Unless you consider trafficbots deployed by the greed of the merchant to be equal or greater then an actual person's interest in his product.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 05:52
From: Pie Psaltery
Name: Prim Savers
Traffic: 31807


That second line there would be the lie. Unless you consider trafficbots deployed by the greed of the merchant to be equal or greater then an actual person's interest in his product.


We've been through this, it's not a lie, it's artificially inflated. That is the traffic number that parcel has generated, it has been generated by genuine avatars and traffic bots, traffic bots equal artificial inflation.
Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
09-05-2008 06:14
I'm really sorry, you will never convince me that an artificially produced number isn't a lie.

It's a lie at Phil's store, it's a lie on the SL homepage where it lists concurrant users.

If it's not real, and it is artificial inflated , then it has been fabricated with the intent to decieve, and deception is a lie.

Spin it anyway ya wanna... trafficbots as advertising tools, trafficbots as the saviour of SL business, trafficbots as REAL traffic as oppsed to "artificially inflated" traffic...

A lie is a lie.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
09-05-2008 06:22
From: Pie Psaltery
If it's not real, and it is artificial inflated , then it has been fabricated with the intent to decieve, and deception is a lie.


It's horses for courses, in Phil's case I don't really see it as an intention to deceive because the intention is to attract people to Phil's store. I personally don't buy the line that if a store has high traffic it means the quality of the goods is high, that's not how I shop, but that's me, others can base their purchasing decisions on their own criteria.

If Phil were running a mall and renting out space, then I'd see it as an intention to deceive because in the case of a mall, traffic is very much a selling point. I'd rather it wasn't and I know from my own experience that traffic is extremely subjective to many other factors.
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
09-05-2008 06:42
From: MortVent Charron
So you are saying if I read this right you prefer customers that are ignorant of your business practices? Or are you saying you are focused on those that don't know better, which implies possibly that you want the consumer to be kept in the dark about things so you can get the money.

Because anyway I read that it's profit > integrity in regard to your customers.
You didn't read it right. What I said was that I am not going to wipe people's arses for them. If anyone is concerned about a place using bits, it atkes only a few seconds to find out. If they can't be bothered to do that, why should anyone else be bothered to do it for them. That's the gist of what I said - it was rather obvious too.

It is the job of a shopkeeper to serve those who want to be served. That's it.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
09-05-2008 06:46
From: MortVent Charron
Well I just want the ones saying what they are doing is good for the consumer to admit it's not for the consumer, but their greed.

I know companies are driven usually by greed, but even so there are many that limit what they do simply because they have business ethics they rely on that don't include anything for to make a buck.
You seem to have an irrational thing about greed, Mort. Businesses that try to increase profits are not normally accused of greed. They are normally accused of being businesses that try to increase profits; i.e. normal businesses. But if it's greed to you, the chances are that your very livelihood depends on greed, so don't knock it ;)
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Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Pie Psaltery
runs w/scissors
Join date: 13 Jan 2004
Posts: 987
09-05-2008 06:53
From: Phil Deakins
Businesses that try to increase profits are not normally accused of greed. They are normally accused of being businesses that try to increase profits; i.e. normal businesses.



No, you're right, normal businesses trying to increase thier profit aren't accused of being greedy.

Just those businesses using shady business practices bear that distinction.

That's the difference. Honest and true vs. greed and subversion. Both common business practices. One's just a little more respected then the other.
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