REZZ Boxes, advantages?

It's not a good parallel, Jessica. The space on the RL neighbour's land exists - just as the space on his/her SL land exists. Both spaces can be pointed to. The prims in a sim don't exist until they are rezzed. They are only potential.

I don't disagree with that and, as I said, I'll add to my documentation.

I agree with you, Min. But if the sim has 5000 free prims, which of those are yours? If I use a temp rezzer to rez 50 of the free ones, over and above my normal prim allowance, you can still do eactly as you want. I already said that, if there's a possibility that a temp rezzer will affect people's prim allowances, then it shouldn't be used.


Kitty:
I have no argument against your hypothetical example, as you can see from several of my posts in this thread, including this one.

And the cars don't exist until they are parked/built. I agree it's not a good parallel (nothing from RL to SL is), but it does fit within the realm of the discussion and morality theory. Debating semantics doesn't get the point to those reading this thread for informational purposes.

A landowner OWNS the prim-allotment attached to their land. And NO more. Wether you can use the others or not, is beside the fact that it is wrong to do so.



{Appollogies for using caps to highlight. With BBC still turned off by LL I can't use bold as should be. Not yelling, only stressing key points.}

The point most are trying to make, Phil, is that using 50 of those "free prims", or even all 5000 for a ONE TIME use of a TEMPORARY rez is allowed. This is the intent of the rezzers. [Example: To showcase a prefab house one at a time.] The effects last a temprorary 60 seconds.

It is when people use a TEMP-rezzer to make TEMPORARY prims PERMANENT that there is a problem. At that point, people are stealing prims from others, and cheating the system. That those 5000 prims are not being used, is of no matter. They are not owned by the person using the temp-rezzer.

Say, for this hypothetical example, that all 5000 free prims came from one landowner's plot (unlikely, but possible). Let us also assume, for this example, that a person is using a temp-rezzer in this same sim, and is temp-rezzing close to all 5000 prims (again, unlikely, but I have seen worse). Now say the landowner, who pays tier to LL for the privilage of having the use of those prims, wants to rez a 5000 prim statue of Philip Linden (I figured I might as well stay with the unlikely examples ^.~). Well, they can't. Because the temp-rezzer is preventing them from using the prim allotment they pay for.

So there is always the possibility of affecting other peoples prim-allotments, starting the second you go over your own.

The only prims you can claim use on, are the ones in your prim-allotment through your tier. NO MORE than that. Period.

You MAY use prims from that "free prim pool" TEMPORARILY for certain purposes. One of those purposes is NOT going over your prim-limit for extended timeframes. (I could even see using them to host a party on your plot, though I would concider it a curtousy to tell your neighbors, so as to avoid problems.)

~Jessy

True. We specifically warn our tenants not to use temp rezzers. It's an eviction offense.

lmao! Thanks Jessica

Okay, who's going to make me a 5000 prim statue of Phil for Jessica's birthday

We'll have to agree to disagree, Jessica. I understand what you are saying about using temp prims temporarily, but it's still using them from the prim pool if you go above your parcel's allowance. So is it ok to "steal" them if it's only for a short time? I'll think we'll have to disagree

I've added to my documentation, btw.

Well, the thing is I can see your point, Phil.

If you look back about a year and half ago in the (now archived) General Discussion forums, you'd find a LONG thread on temp-rezzers. In that thread I myself argued their use. Ordinal and Rei spent a good while explaining issues to me about them.

Because of this, I went and did a LOT of testing (yeah, I'm a geek at times ^.^). I spent prolly about a month playing with different rezzers and differnt objects to rez, and settings for both and talked to a lot of the "oldies" to get their imput. This is how I came to learn what to look for and what they can, and can not, effect.

The reason it is okay to "steal" from the "free prim pool" temporarily is because it is temporary. 60 seconds later, the temp-prims aren't there (unless they are being continuously re-rezzed).

Bullets for combat sims are a prime example (though not the only one. Just easy to understand.). These actually de-rez via a script after jsut a few seconds. 10 seconds being average. This allows for more bullets to be fired as needed. Why I use this example is because if the weapons are fired in a sim that is fully using their prim-allotment, the temp-bullets will simply not rez. As there is no "free prim pool" left. This can also ahppen if too many temp-bullets are fired/rezzed at once without a sufficient pool to pull from.

The same happens with permanent prims (as in my Philip statue example above). However, in that case, it is infringing on the landowner's privilage to rez their own prims. If the statue is rezzed first, then temp-prims can't be. However, permanent prims can only be rezzed on your own land, and only within the limit of your prim allotment.

So IF there is "Free prims" in the "prim pool" then using them for that 60 seconds is acceptable. Obviously, those using temp-prims can not complain if they can not rez due to lack of a "prim pool". Conversely, a landowern CAN complain if they can not rez their prims due to temp-prims pulling continuously from the "prim pool" and impacting their prim-allotment.

And I'm not discussing to slam you. I admire that you look out for your sim and see if there is a script performance usage, and to make sure there are free prims, and also to update your own rezzer for sale with information on proper usage. The continued discourse here is mostly to educate anyone who would read this.

Using a temp-rezzer to "push" the prim-allotment is VERY tempting. Prims are something we'd all love to have more of. It only needs stressed that we all must always watch to ensure we are conciderate of our neighbors. In prims, in scripts, in avatars, etc, to ensure we do not infringe on other's privilages even as we enjoy our own.

Oh, and I'm far from perfect in that aspect *grins* I am human (I think lol), but I do try. And it's not the people that know and do it anyway that I hope to reach. It's those, like you said, Phil, that don't know, so think it's just the way things work.

And Min,
For a 5000 prim statue, I'll need that on a temp-rezzer ^.~

~Jessy

I know that, Jessica. I never thought for a moment that you were. In fact, I haven't seen any slamming in this thread - none that I recognised as such, anyway

This is the addition to my information notecard. It's the 2nd paragraph, so it's very prominent:-

Reasonable?

Temp rezzers do cause sim lag, it is noticable, and not a myth. I used them myself in my store, I had 6 going at one time. The spikes of lag were terrible. As soon as I changed the rezzers from using temp prims to normal prims, the lag ceased. Fast forward 6 months, I see huge lag spikes return to my sim, only this time I know my rezzers haven't been set to Temp prims. I check on some of the other renters in my sim, and sure enough, the fellow with the car dealership has switched from prim boxes to temp rezzers. I explain to him the issue, and he sets them to not rez as temporary prims, and like magic, the lag spikes go away. I guess I must live in some fairy-land dream world, if in fact Temp rezzers rezzing temp prims cause no lag.

I'll do some more extensive testing. I need to see it for myself.

The information in your note is correct, though I, personaly, don't like to see them advertised as a means to get around prim-limits in any way. If that is going to be the use, then, yes, your warning is well worded, and hopefully followed.

I would deem it wise to also note to check the client FPS, Sim FPS, Time Dilation and Script Time for several minutes for EACH rezzer. Setting out only one at a time to look for trouble.

While you state yours cause you not issue, there are many things you can put in rezzers that are just plain BAD to do. I found things in testing rezzers that I never thought would have the impact that they do. Putting a seemingly harmless item in a rezzer can, at times, turn the sim to crap. Conversely, there are things you would think would be very bad to put in a rezzer that really don't cause any issues. Like all things in SL....blame Philip, heh.

Truthfully, you could write a book on rezzers for your. How much you want to add is completely up to you. Though as a thought I jsut had, you could add the HTTP address for this thread in the notecard. Not all would be able to read it (you need Payment Info on File to be on the forums), but it is a possibility to think about.

As you can prolly tell from my long-winded posts *cough* I'm a fan of the old "no such thing as too much information" ideal.

My advice is to put enough in the notecard where you feel you have done your moral obligation to help people understand your product and use it in a mannor that they can enjoy continued use of it, without fear of ARs or simply causing problems without knowing they are. The point you are satisfied with is the point you need.

~Jessy

That's the reason I sell them.

I'd be very interested to know a few examples of apparently innocuous objects that cause bad effects, and vice versa, Jessica, if you can remember any.

Well, my experience says otherwise, but anecdotes are anecdotes. Fact is, they CAN and DO cause lag problems; they CAN and DO cause legitimate prim rezzing problems. The Lindens HAVE returned other people's temp rezzers which more or less are griefing their neighbors.

Yes, I am aware that temp-on-rez feature can be used responsibly, but the general intent of most temp-rezzers on the market is SPECIFICALLY to get around parcel prim limitations, which are there for a reason, and that use is NOT "responsible".

They aren't necessarily any worse than any other heavy lag-inducing object, in as much as they are misused by people ignorant of their effects, but you also have to look at how the products are marketed; "Get around prim limits!" doesn't seem to be very enlightening concerning the problem, either.

Show me a problem, Talarus. That's all I ask. It's very easy to say they cause problems, but show me. Or even demonstrate it with mine. I'm happy to use them for a demo, but I want to see. Is that too much to ask?

Already did.. read my first post in this thread. ^^

Ok. Can you take me to it? Or give me an LM?

The whole point here Phil, you just come across as a I don't want to see it. You have rezzers, they will be causing problems for christ sake man you even have a sign in your shop explaining how to remove bent knees from your av, I rarely have that problem in SL, but certainly have it at your place.

Then you don't land in the sky very often, or when you do, you have an AO on. It's a well-known SL bug, Dekka, so don't be trying score points because of it.

Look, Dekka, if I'm going to stop selling temp rezzers, I want a darned good reason to do so. If me asking to see the stated problems for myself comes across as me NOT wanting to see, then I'm sorry that you don't understand too well. Or perhaps you think that people should just accept what a few people say without questioning it - just because they say so. If that's how you think, I'm sorry, but I'm not like that at all. Can YOU show me an example? Or do you accept it blindly, just because few people say so.

sorry late at night, 3.30am now to be precise. my experience is that when I managed a island, everything was cool, no problems, rezzers where banned, then the rules were relaxed and rezzers appeared everywhere, so the SIM became a lag mess, objects mysteriously started to get sent back to lost and found, some just went missing, we banned the rezzers once more and everything became hunky dory again, that's my only direct experience/evidence. Also as you can see that's difficult to illustrate, its a gradual erosion over time that you notice, it doesn't happen in 5 minutes or even day, so no one can show you the problem.

And yes I do land in the sky often, I build for one and I build mostly at 500 meters on a daily basis, my friends build too on skyboxes, no problems there.

My first home in SL was a rented skybox. That's where I learned about feet in the floor and bent legs through landing in the sky. Since then, I've rented skyboxes out and the same phenomenon occurs. It's nothing to do with the shop itself - it's entirely to do with how SL lands people in the sky. How on earth could anyone make something that causes people's feet to be in the floor, and/or their legs to be bent? It was a low blow.

Incidentally, the feet/legs phenomenon occurs when TPing into the sky - not when flying up. Take your AO off and TP to some very high places and check it out. (I wonder if landing on huge prims makes a difference. I'll have to check that out)

The thing about objects being returned and going missing is a new thing for this discussion, so I can't comment on that. It sounds almost as though the temp rezzers on the island were filling the sim, and if that's the case, we've already gone through that, without any disagreement.

What's left is sim perfomance, and that's the effect that I want to see in action before I accept that there's a real problem. If I see it, I'd have no difficulty whatoever in stopping selling temp rezzers. Heck, I'm tempted to stop anyway, because people are very good at not following instructions correctly, and they can be more trouble that they are worth.

Jessica:
I want you to know that I have every faith in the results of your past experiments. It's just that I'd like to see the effects for myself - just as you wanted to see them. I'm not disbelieving you.

The sim i live in has had fluctuating TD for awhile now. I noticed that the number of objects in the sim is always changing every second. I'm wondering if a neighbor is using a temp rezzer. One had her entire house in one but she is gone now.

Phil,

Not entirey what i said. When people know that they use prims they are not entitled to, they cheat. When they don't know that they are using prims they are not entitled to, they don't cheat. Just that, nothing more Example:

1) I buy a rezzbox, thinking that the 50% extra prims I use up above the ones I pay for, are temp and come above the 15000 a sim can hold. So one ones prims are in fact used up, in my idea.

2) I buy a rezzbox, knowing that I use up prims I didn't pay for. The fact that I do, doesn't bother me, I do not see it as cheating, since LL does give me the possibility.

First example is not cheating since I didn't know better. Second example is cheating, since I know what I am doing.

Then the fact you want to see the effects demonstrated before you would consider stop selling them. That is something I do understand Because me neither would stop selling an item before knowing very sure that it has negative impacts. And the best way to be convinced, is to see it happen. Which would not be too hard to demonstrate I guess.

Greetings Marcel

Phil's absolutely right about the 'bent legs' bug, it's been around for a long while and effects avatars TPing into a point that's not on the ground, e.g. a skybox. It's not a consistent bug, i.e. it won't always happen, but it does happen. I believe it's something to do with your avatar being at a slight angle after the teleport. Sitting on something and standing up again fixes it.

I'm sure I've seen some results people have posted here from experiments relating to lag. Although I've done a search and can't find anything under temp rezzers. Is there anyone here who could help us set up a test? I imagine we'd need an empty sim to really test this thoroughly?

Good news is that, according to LL's latest podcast, the Havok 4 and Mono projects will increase sim stability and script processing times. Perhaps these issues will be eased when they are implemented.

Well, first off, I'm not one advocating for you to stop selling the rezzers. They have valid uses. The only thing I mentioned was that I, personally, do not like them advertised as to be used to "get around" the prim-limits. Technically, this is telling people to violate the CS by using resources alloted to others. It's a "grey area" issue and one only enforced if the rezzers DO cause issues with prim rezzing or sim-performance.

As for seeing the examples; I would have to go through and retest again (not something I really want to spend the time on again). The things that effect rezzers are much too varied. What's in the sim? What prims? What scripts? How many avatars? How many avatars TPing in and out and how much? How is the script designed in the rezzer (different modles gave different results)? What scripts are in the rezzed object? What textures are in the rezzed object? Is ther texture-flicker or build-incongruities in the rezzed object? What basic prim shape is the rezzed object? Is the rezzed object cut/hollowed/twisted? The list goes on and on and on, and repeating results is nearly impossible. Perhaps on a stand alone server, with no other people accessing it in any way, but not within the confines of the live grid.

It's why I played with them for months. I kept getting conflicting results. One day I couldn't temprez a plywood cube, and then next I could temprez greifer cubes without lag.

The only thing a person using a rezzer can do is to continually watch the sim-performance data. Time Dilation, Script Time, and just an all-around "feel" for the lag and effects. Seeing a rezzed item flicker is bad, seeing it "fade" in and out when the re-rezzing should be seamless is bad.

My biggest thing is for people to talk to neighbors. They may not like a temp-rezzer, but if told it's there, and asked for them to report any problems to the owner so they can adjust or remove it, things tend to go more smoothly, and neighbors tend to forgive minor lag issues until things are worked out perfect.

The same can be said for mega-prims, or rotating scripts, or particle scripts, rain/snow making machines, etc etc etc. The seller should simply tell the buyer of the things that can go wrong and how to watch for, and prevent them.

~Jessy

Marcel:
I don't see any disagrement between us concerning your last post, except the use of the word "cheating". We agree that a person who thinks that the extra prims are over and above the sim's normal limit isn't cheating. We differ in how we judge the action of the person who knows that the extra prims come from the sim's 15000. I would judge someone harshly who used temp rezzers, knowing that the sim isn't all that far from being full, but I wouldn't find fault with the person if the sim is half empty, for instance.

After I logged off last night, it occured to me that a sim on the Beta grid would be a good place to test. The last time I looked there were both Havoc1 and Havoc4 sims, and I imagine there still will be. If anyone would like to join in testing, I'd be very pleased to use my temp rezzers for it. It would great to get some figures and discuss them here.

I forgot to mention...

Before I turned in last night, I turned around 2 dozen temp rezzers in one sim off, and watched the Statistics bar for noticeable changes. One thing that did change noticeably when they were off and on is the Scripts IPS. They were lower on average when off, and higher on average when on. But my understanding is that scripts have a minimum slice of time to run in, so they can't be slowed to a virtual halt, unless there's a huge number of scripts looking for time in the slice.