Should Linden Lab require certification for these SL 'Therapists'?

I believe you all are assuming this. LL is very serious about the credentials of the people they have listed as working with teens. And I believe man of the higher education organizations in SL.
Linden Lab has invested alot of time, energy and money into supporting real educators (recall the $10,000 USD grant they offered educators?). There have been no known education scandals in SL thatI know of. Perhaps that is because LL alighned themselves with this group and encouraged proof of certification.


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unless you can show me proof that LL checks each and every "school" in sl, and checks each and every person who claims to be a teacher, then you are also the one assuming.

And what the heck does this have to do with teens?
At this time, we are still an adult grid, and whether it is educators, non-profit, or therapists, it has nothing to do with teens.

Not sure why you brought the teen comment into it, that is a whole different thing.

bottom line is....
you asked a question and that was...

do we think that LL should require certifications for these SL "therapists"?
my answer (and it seems other agree) is no, I do not think LL should. I think it is up to each of us to know who we are dealing with, and if said person is not willing to share info we request, why the hell would we feel comfortable sharing anything with them?

For some reason you keep counteracting it anytime any of us have any comments that do not comply with what you think and feel.

Then you bring in all this stuff about educational and non profit and now teen grid stuff...

Maybe you need to heed your own advice....



I personally do not want LL controlling any more of my Second Life than they already do.

(it is supposed to be our world our imaginations... what if I want to imagine I am a therapist? or a school teacher? or god forbid, someone who pretends to be a doctor?)

IF people wish to believe that is what I do in my RL, without checking me out, asking me questions and not even requesting to see some RL credentials, then sorry, they need to seek more help than a therapist in SL can give them, and if they then, continue to believe my word, without proof and spill their life history on me... again, they need professional help in person, not over a virtual game.

Whoa, there. This is a different matter. LL *does* vet the adults they allow on the Teen Grid very carefully. It's not that they care if they are an effective teacher, though. They want to be sure that they're not turning a sexual predator loose among the sheep. Making sure that a person is actually an accredited teacher, a member of some organization that does work with kids, does not in and of itself guarantee this...but it's about the best they can do.

So...so far we have LL "regulating" educators and related people for only two reasons:

1. To make sure they aren't getting a price break on a sim under false pretenses, and
2. To make sure they aren't going to scr..er, mess with...the kids.

Both are done solely to protect themselves, not others.

But they don't "regulate" in any sense that says, "this person is qualified to do this thing they are doing". That is still (thank gods) a matter for the client to determine for themselves.

I listed a link to the Linden Run group of RL teen educators. It does not matter what grid we are on - It is all LL policy.

And some of us believe LL should involve itself in some regulation as they do with educators. Educators cannot do as much harm as fake therapists. LL partnered with a outside group to bring us voice and anothe rgroup to plan the future of the mainland. Partnering with a oversight organization is not out of the question.


you edited my advice. Live. Learn. *Be Proactive. Proactive meaning to look into regulating these therapists (even requiring anyone claiming to be a therpist or in that field in SL to post a disclaimer when advertising)

Then you need to go to Brigadoon Island and play Vampire cowboys. There are some people in SL and use it as a platform for the extension of their RL business or activities. RL business survives because of regulations to stave off fraud. LL is very serious about making LL a relevant platform for real business (you see the PGing of SL happening now - cleaning the place up for business) and we all see the writing on the wall. But something positive can come from all of the changes LL is making.


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and again lias you are repeating yourself.

I guess that was mainly my point...

you have seen our points of view, we have seen yours, I am not trying to convince you that my point of view is right. You asked, I answered.
so did others.
but every time someone answered in such a way that it was not with what you wanted, you counteracted with the same argument, with a little bit added to drive home your point.

Do you think we do not know you want it regulated?
That is blatantly obvious.

Do not try to convince me it is the right thing to do, and I will not try to convince you that it a useless thing to do.

I will restate again though, in case you missed it.
You asked if we wanted it.

I do not.
As for my leaving out part of your quote, um yeah I did that on purpose. I guess it went over your head though, sorry.


oh and um, you will not tell me what I need to do or where I need to go in SL. Please keep those snide comments to yourself.

Um, Rhaorth you quoted me (kind of) and asked about three questions. I merely responded to your inquiries. Chill out, man.


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OK, let's all stay civil, even if we disagree.

Lias, I'll make a closing statement too, then let it lie.

I understand your point about professions having regulations and certifications to prevent fraud. Or more accurately, to try and set some minimum level of competence for practitioners.

My point is that no certification program can do that, not reliably, but people tend not to remember that. They put their faith in a piece of paper instead of doing their homework.

In a world where there are no governing boards, diploma granting institutions, or regulatory bodies, people HAVE to do their homework. Caveat emptor, as another poster said.

Competence is where you find it, and I'd rather have a competent person than a certified one any day.

No need to chill out, and I am not a man, stop presuming to know me, the only part of your comment that miffed me was your snide remark about where I should go in SL
you have no knowledge of how I live my SL, what I do, or what interests me.

As I said before, for all you know, I could be a licensed psychologist or therapist in RL, you have no way of knowing who I am. Yet you seem to assume an awful lot.

Your comment was both snide and demeaning as I think it was meant to be.

That is all.

Oh, and I left out the one place where Linden Lab has very strict regulations - The people who exchange Lindens. If your not a member of LLs risk API group then you can be sanctioned quite severely. And you could say if anyone is dumb enough to buy their Lindens from anyplace else than the Second Life website that they get what they deserve - but Linden Lab does not agree with you in this point.

I say to stave off rampant fraud some regulations can be devised by LL - since this population of therapists is growing in SL.

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then you should know Lias, from the example of 'Financial Regulation' that LL has no interest in regulating anything except under the following two conditions

1) it might improve their bottom line (reference GOM and Xstreet)
2) it negatively impacts their bottom line (reference Casinos, Ginko, virtual child porn, and the whole report your neighbor idiocy)


now from these two criteria we see that their reactions tend to very different responses depending one whether it's a positive or negative impact to their own bottom line. they either replace/take over, or blanket ban.

given that the extra onus of administering licensing for professionals, gains them no profit, it's easily concluded that IF it becomes a PR issue then LL will likely issue a blanket ban on people claiming professional licenses when they don't have them... or just point at policies that already support such a ban, and ban accounts of individuals that engage in this practice as they are reported.

LL's only social conscience stems from PR. even if they have a moral obligation to institute your idea (and I'm not convinced they do), it's just not going to happen.

actually I beg to differ.

Linden lab doesn't give a damn about the person who might buy lindens from a fraudulent source, if they did, then they would not do this...



If that is not LL saying the person got what they deserve, then what is?
The person loses their RL dollars and their linden dollars...

As for the therapist etc subject
I highly doubt that LL wants to put their foot in the water on that one, leaves too much open to problems.

What happens if someone trusts someone because LL said they passed the "regulations test" then that person sues the other for malpractice, where would LL stand on that, being that they are the ones that "okayed" the "therapist" to begin with.

Heck there might even be legal issues to consider as to why they would not do something like this.

and even if they did regulate it or whatever, it doesn't mean that the "therapist" is any more trustworthy than another. That is something that seriously should be dealt with in RL, not a virtual world.

Again, if you are serious in your proposal then don't use the word "regulation" indiscriminately. LL does not have regulations: It has POLICIES and the TOS. It has a policy about banking; it does not regulate the banking industry.

And policies regarding real money are easier to implement than those regarding professional licensure for the service industry, e.g., psychotherapists. You really don't want to understand how difficult it would be for LL to have a policy that weeds out charlatans?

From your responses and mental walls you've erected, should I guess you were deeply hurt by such a charlatan?

Support the efforts of people whom you find are legitimate therapists, but don't assume that licensed professionals walk on water and can do no harm.

A psychiatrist once wrote: "The brighter the light, the darker the shadow." Be wary of those of proclaim their own self worth and how much they are admired. Cum grano salis.

Don't be blinded by the elegance of degrees and training and dismiss those who are trained to help but see not the need to be regulated and policed.

I guess. But, if people don't investigate credentials, perhaps they will end up working with this "psychologist":
http://www.slpsychologist.blogspot.com/

Whose credentials (other than the obvious ones of 'loving people', not being able to spell, and liking Beyonce), are not in evidence on her blog, or in her advertisement today in these forums, classified/services.
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If she's a psychologist and qualified to be offering to treat people, I'm an astronaut.
Anyone want a ride in my spaceshuttle? It's only L$1000 a time, payable in advance. You won't get rates like this in RL, I tell you.

But seriously, where any professions and disciplines are regulated and/or certificated in RL and being offered inworld it's up to:
a) the customers or clients to check out the credentials of anyone they consult with and report any breach or malpractice to the governing body concerned, and
b) the RL regulating authorities to treat online services provided in the virtual world as seriously as they would otherwise.

I can't see why LL needs to be overseeing this as yet another authority, except insofar as these "professionals" are operating within the TOS.
--
Aes

The whole point of "let the buyer beware," is exactly that you don't enter into a professional relationship with someone you haven't investigated, e.g., obtain references, look at licenses/complaints, etc. Never have I suggested, hinted at, or otherwise recommended that one just willy nilly blindly point a finger at the adverts in the psychotherapy section of the phone book.

As regards to that blog posting, it is rather humourous, and as it was just dated today I wonder if it is a reaction to this thread rather than anything serious. And, even though I'm a guy, I do like Beyonce. Hmm, maybe it is a legit advert.

Sure, I do, and you don't even need to like Beyonce! [But then I live in an airship.]

Wow. *I* assume much? I relayed a bit of a story, you inferred and extrapolated it out to make a charlatan into a victim and me into culturally ignorant, professionally arrogant, subjective, and just flat-out mean. I don't think you are crass and stupid in the least, another assumption on your part. I don't know your motivation and probably won't give it much thought - your reasons for your post are more about you than about me. You have a great deal of creativity, though, I will give you that

I assumed very little in the exchange I shared a bit of. It was not brief. The person was upfront about what had been taken and what it would be used for. I was not asked, I was told, after the fact. I don't think that's cool. Multiply him by a couple dozen, sprinkle in visitors using my office to "see clients" and I accidentally walk in on them or mulitlevel marketers standing in my landing point to catch visitors as they TP in and tell them how herbal supplements will cure any mental illness....yeah. A small percentage of what goes on in an overwhelmingly positive environment, and I can't even say you asked for clarification or facts, but there some of them are. fwiw. I still wouldn't change a thing and believe there is a place for mental health resources in SL.

As for those "desperate for resources" - check things out in-world. I have been active for years in-world in providing anything I am asked, for any group or individual, from teaching, mentoring, speaking to groups, or sharing materials - all free of charge.

My standards are pretty high, you've got me there. If a person claims to be ready to see clients in SL and treat them for mental illness, and they are not qualified but that's okay because they can just use what I have until they catch on (and again, I am not inferring - I have been told this more times than I can list) - I do have a problem with that. That concerns me more than the fact that they take both my original written work as well as materials I worked for years to obtain permission to share. But yep...even therapists have opinions, likes, dislikes, and can get pissy when we see what we believe to be wrong. In other words, human. But not quite the demon described in your post. (well, maybe some days... )

If you are ever interested in learning more about what actually happens, or my character, or my cultural background, or the lack of horns protruding from my noggin, feel free to ask in-world or email...I get a lot of questions and welcome them.

Well said. I think a lot of people feel this way. Sometimes you can have both, but the issue is the fit, the ethics, the way the two people work together. The other side is that sometimes people want someone with formal training, and this can be because they are in RL therapy and want us to work with their RL clinician (which a SL counselor can certainly do - it can work very well if the RL therapist is open to it), they have a specific theory they have used and they want used in counseling, or they have a psych diagnosis in RL, they are in RL treatment, and they want us as an additional support for SL issues.
Peers and those who do not have advanced degrees can be invaluable in helping others. That's why we started the Guiding Lights training - to help find those competent people and give them a chance to show their strengths. Or provide them support along the way if they ever need it.

I was actually hoping for horns, but am use to disappointment . . .

Partly, the intent of my response was to show how easy it is to assume facts not in evidence. If you had shared in your original post about the encounter with "that" person what you just shared above I would have understood your position. However, your posting made you sound rather grumpy and unprofessional. My sincere apologies as I did place you closer on the chthonic side of the world. In defense, my original post consisted of questions, albeit garnished with a touch of venom, but you graciously answered. Thank you.

Character, humanity, compassion, and experience are traits I value most in a professional, and for you to admit that maybeeee you were being a bit less than professional tells me quite about the authenticity of your intentions. I am always interested in learning, but I am not much in-world, but maybe some day our paths will cross.

I do admire the process you are undertaking bringing legitimacy to your chosen profession for SL, much like the SLBA, and training lay people. But, I never see LL stepping in to make policy specific to the myriad fields within psychotherapy.

And well aware are you of the charlatans and licensed professionals who will sell you herbal remedies, or phyto gummy bears, as the cure all. How will you, or how do you, differentiate competency from the snake oil salesman?

This is where hubris sneaks in, that somehow, I am better than all others because of my degrees, licenses and certifications and I neither "sell" nor claim a cure, just my professional insight to provide you with the tools for a well adjusted life. Look at all I have built, and all who admire my work! Surely, you must realize and see all the good I do so come follow me.

All that can be just so much snake oil. This is not pointed at you as being arrogant, just a point, no more, perhaps a tale of caution for all in positions of responsibility and also for those of us who admire and rely on those people for our welfare.

So before I dig a hole for myself any deeper to the chthonic realms, I'll behave and cover my mouth and say no more.

Just noticed there is a post from a "psychologist" who is also an escort and on top of that will teach you how to be a hooker ..opps sorry escort.

Have to wonder does being a psychologist not make enough money in here or is her specialty sex therapy.

NOw in this ones case should her psychologist be checked out or should it be checked that she is a real escort and knows what to do so she does not rip off or harm the men she is with?

you're a troublemaker.


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Thanks for the response, Paracelus. And the allowance that even therapists can be human, grumpy, happy, silly....this is a bulletin board. Not my office. And yep...I get grumpy when my work is stolen. Not enough to lose sleep or to rant or to go ballistic, but it's annoying. Am I "on duty" professional 24 hours per day? No way. What a miserable existence that would be. On the other hand, am I going to tell you about a client? Break confidentiality? Take on something over my head just for a couple of Linden or some attention? No way, no how. Hey! Maybe I can be grumpy AND professional! Authentic for sure, arrogant - well, I am about the biggest goofball you will ever meet, I learn something new every day, say I am wrong/sorry pretty easily, and find kudos and admiration kind of...uncomfortable. (my mini resume was for your benefit, in response to your inference that I didn't help those who need it)

I am not one who promotes LL stepping in to "regulate." I don't see how it would work. I don't work for LL, I am a little fish in a big pond. But maybe I can do something in my small area. I hope to see more groups and individuals address this.

You asked an excellent question about differentiating competency from those selling snake oil. My first thought is "intent." Why is the person there? To make money? (there is no money to be made in SL in social services, and they would be far better off taking a Photoshop class and learning to make hair, but that's another issue) Do they want to "rescue" others? I think competency starts with intent.

I do see value in formal training, I won't lie. Not as something to brag about, but as additional tools in the toolkit. That's my bias, but it most certainly does not exclude peers and lay helpers - they are vital. I see a huge potential in peer/lay support. It's not about being "better than" because of a degree, because we are all in agreement that degrees and licensure are no guarantee of competence or fit. My concern is those with ill intent, who are openly setting out to pull the wool over the eyes of folks who are already vulnerable. My hope, though, lies in those who just want to help. There are far more of those. At the end of the day, that's a good thing. (did I mention that I am also an optimist?)

Take care, all - this has been an interesting thread. /me poofs back to work

With this in mind, in a profile I looked at moments ago, I saw this "...Real Help in a Virtual World-
Helpful, non-judgmental support by a RL board certified counselor. Verified in SL. Help for anxiety, depression, relationships, coping mechanisms, relationships, trauma, identity, addiction, & more. When you need real, effective help - no gimmicks, no roleplay - we're here."

What exactly does 'Verified in SL.' mean?

Absolutely nothing.

Probably.

If it means nothing, why is it there? It may mislead some poor vulnerable person who really can't afford 1500 $L for a 50 minute hour....

It must have some meaning for the person who wrote it.