Should Linden Lab require certification for these SL 'Therapists'?

Everyone always says the thing they are concerned about is more important than the other thing someone else is concerned about. I am gradually coming around to Chris Norse's viewpoint: NOTHING is deserving of government regulation. Banking? Government regulation got us into the current mess. Gambling? Don't make me laugh. The casino owners corrupted the regulators long ago. Health care? Government regulation is strangling the development of new drugs. Education? I'd rather learn from a knowledgeable, gifted amateur than any teacher with "credentials" but no subject knowledge. Speed limits? Let people drive at the speed they want. If they can handle it, fine, go 200 mph. If you kill yourself, welcome to the Darwin Awards. If you kill me, my heirs will avenge me.

Hi there ~ I'm a little puzzled by your response, more than a little puzzled really. The poster I quoted from was chiding me for not recognizing that LL had involvement from agencies for banking, gambling and child welfare [and educators and charities are under the watchful eye of LL.]

My point only was that with human services the regulations are state to state specific, so your point is that LL is suppose to be somehow responsible for regulating an industry that has a near impossible time regulating itself?

Gambling and banking are both federally and state regulated. Child abuse is a crime anywhere in this country - real and virtual.

Not being licensed as a therapist is not federally regulated, nor is it possible for state agencies to tackle problems arising in the virtual realm stemming from such matters.

I'm not whining at all or moaning for the good old days whatever they were like. I can advertise my therapy services in the local phone book without anyone blinking an eye regardless of my credentials. On the other hand, I could not list a service as a bank or casino without someone investigating.

What real world body/agency is there that oversees human services on a national level? There ain't none. None like the IRS at least. Unless you expect LL to contract with each state and local agency that does license professionals? Or, is LL to judge what therapy is allowed and must be credentialed? The way they would handle it is just say, "No therapists allowed." End of story.

If I have misinterpreted what you said, I apologize, and will crawl back under the rock from whence I came. [I need an icon representing brain dead. ]

Edit: Once again, I repeat my earlier statement, licensing and credentialing in human services has to do with the person's ability to be reimbursed from insurance carriers [private and government]. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with one's ability to perform/provide quality services. The DSM exists as a code book for licensed professionals to fill in a blank space on the insurance reimbursement form.

VAT is regulated by Linden Lab for millions of its customers. VAT is country code-specific. We Americans have zip code that tell where we are located. The same VAT procedure can be applied easily.

I believe there are fraud cases in American courts arising from therapists that falsified their background and credentials. Banks in SL were looked at because of all of the fraud cases.

Why not? LL devises their own rules everyday.

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I'm lost on this: How is VAT comparable to the topic of providing psych therapies? With VAT, you are talking numbers contained in a database which is real easy to calculate and charge. And yes, I understand that we Americans do have zip codes, but am not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China [my last neuron is on overload, sorry.]

Fraud cases are brought continually before the courts for falsifying credentials, no argument there, and often because the "therapist" applied for insurance reimbursements. But . . . as long as one does not falsify credentials local jurisdictions will not act. Again, let the buyer beware. Don't falsify credentials, don't apply for insurance reimbursement, and there is little anyone will complain about. Hang a shingle out and make a "suggested donation" amount. Hmmm, maybe I should do that . . .

Yes, LL does quite well at creating their own rules. Wuvs them for that as they always keeps us guessing what their combined creative genius will come up with next!

You mentioned that regulating each State would be impossible for LL when it comes to therapists. BUT LL pulled off the impossible around the world when they applied the correct amount of VA Tax to millions of its customers.

The bank guys thought the same thing. If these people were just handing them money then LL would it care. And LL did not care for a very long time. Until the scams hit the net and LL's good name got sullied.

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I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I I wa-nna be-e-e-e ...
A-A-A-N-N-A-A-R-R-R-R-K-E-E-E-E-E-E!!
That's what it boils down to, with all due respect.


I'm truly sorry for missing that but ...


Can I just say once and for all that no, this is not my point!

If the Lindens are not in a position to regulate these services within SL, which I fully understand is something of a tall order for them, then ...



Or, if that is not feasible (which I doubt), then ...


My argument is only that it is not good enough to accept a laissez-faire approach where just about anyone can mess with someone else's head on the pretext of providing a professional service. We're not talking about deleting 200 lindens worth of jeans here because the texture is an amateurish piece of crap. We're not even talking about a relatively inexperienced player getting in over his head in a bit of RP that has turrned into a nasty mind game (bad enough in itself).

We're talking about the potential for someone with very real issues to have his or her problems exacerbated by another resident who does not have appropriate training - effectively someone who is playing at being a therapist.

I could still be missing something here but I have yet to see it.

I still do not see how your cool with Linden Lab regulating and certifying educators from all over the world in SL (by using their own criteria) and still say Linden Lab could not apply a criteria they feel comfortable with to therapy services within SL.

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Could you do me a favor and educate me as to what aspects of SL education/educators are regulated by LL and why are they regulated? I really don't know.

As an RL psychotherapist and SL counselor, in-world for 2.5 years and doing this , it can be done within some very strict and clearcut restraints. If we are credentialed, we can and should be able to prove that (yes, it can be checked and should be - I do consumer education on how all the time). There are many aspects of RL therapy that simply cannot be done ethically and responsibly in SL. However, legitimate therapists can provide support, "talk therapy" about issues like communication and relationships, offer psychoeducation, and above all provide a bridge to RL help when it is needed. We should not, imo, diagnose or treat. And we should refer refer refer to RL when needed.

There are unfortunately hordes of fake "counselors" and "psyckiaters" in SL. People offering to cure cancer and everything under the sun. I am approached by people every week asking how they can open counseling centers. "What is your graduate work in?" "Oh I don't have any training. But I am a good listener so I want to be a counselor here until I learn how in RL." Those folks scare me. Linden Labs knows these issues. In the Health Education Consultants group we have a committee working on a credentialing verification service and I believe it can and must be done. Those of us with credentials generally follow the Code of Ethics and guidlelines of our own states/countries.

People may be unable to contact a RL counselor due to their location or other constraints, like disability or just feeling scared to. Again, with *some* issues, there is help for them in-world. It's knowing when you can help and when you can't that makes the difference. Learn more about in-world support before making a judgment. It's not for everyone, but for some, it's helpful.

Come to Wellness Island and check out the library, counseling center, etc. We sponsor the Groups: Medical Ethics, Mental Health Network, and now Guiding Lights, offering free training for those who want to be peer supporters in a virtual environment. Yes, it's not the usual kind of thing you see in SL, but social services is part of the grid, and hopefully some of us are trying to do it well.

Edit: Part of consumer education in SL for mental health services has been to provide information on licensure, what degrees and credentials mean, and where to report if there is a violation. Where we run into trouble is the people who have no RL training or certification. They read your aura or realign your energy or do some active listening and with any luck they don't mess with your head too much. But to whom are THEY reported? LL? I am not sure that's the answer but at the rate they are opening "centers" I imagine we will see it become an issue sooner than later.

/me nods.

Some really good points made in this thread.

"Therapist" is a nebulous term, and even more so is "counselor." You would expect people to inquire more. They don't.

In SL though, people use the terms psychologist, medical doctor, nurse, and others with very clearcut definitions. I have seen Photoshopped "degrees" and "licenses" on virtual office walls. Even in RL, clients can be vulnerable and trusting to their own detriment, not wanting to ask what someone means when they say they are qualified.

Those who know me know I am not a professional and have gone to great lengths to make sre folks know that. It's interesting teh persepective a lay person has in being able to observe what's been happening.

First off a cerit check is going to be a moo tpoimnt because there are so many fake schools out there now that folks are sayingthey are a part of. A lot fo them say they get their degree's from an online school. Yes there are legit schools that are not online accedited but are acreddited with a reliable and long standing credidation agency. if you do nto know what you are looking for it's easy to be decieved by who's actually legally licensed.

SL is a place of anonimity. If a therapist is legit why woudl they hide behind an avatar and not whaire who they realy are so it can be easier to check credntials with a creidtation agency or school? wouldn't that make sense for buyer beware threads.

it's easy to fake a cert. becausae of the anonimity of SL .. photo copy any cert and call it yours.. who's gonna know.

Any legit therapist will and would know you CANNOT treat over the internet, yet even the ones who advocate it should not be done they go ahead and do it anyways. What is teh motivation? First do no harm. That's pretty universal yet risks are taken by profesionals every day I see in SL.. not only the risks but the competition in the helper community is getting rediculouse becuase of the territorialism. That in itslef is a harmful trend. nto sure where folks are looking at the true heart of this issue. iF you have a practice in RL why take a chance with someone by treating or counselling over the net??

You are only licenses in your duristiction, not over the internet to practice all over the world which is what you would b edoing and that is techinically breaking the law in yoru state/country/province/ There is no way LL can legitmately credidate Therapisits, doctors or any other credited person, whether you are legit or not.

Where does that place LL if someone attempts to counsel/treat/advise and someone ends up killing themselves or ends up suing LL because they are on the accepted credidation verification list. People wil assume that folsk are apart of LL themselves instead of you being ou as trianed individuals. Folks this is not a game when it comes to lives here.. Leacve RL issues in RL and referr folks to RL help.. that's where they live their lives and where they need the help the most.

Amaya

To clarify:
Again, treatment and diagnosis are not recommended over the internet. In *some* instances, people can be and have been helped by communicating with someone, getting resources, and most of all, bridging to RL.

Verifying credentials means more than looking at a possibly Photoshopped texture. It means contacting the licensing RL organization to ensure the person is legitimate. Every licensing body I know of provides this service. As I said, many even offer verification online - it is free, it takes just a minute, and you have your answer. If I say I am a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of CA, for example, you can contact the APA and find out. Hopefully those doing the verifying know what they are looking for. Saying you have a Masters from "Jim's Happy Time Therpy Skool" is not going to hold much water with someone who knows the field. Whether or not a college is accredited may or may not affect the ability to get a valid license. There are many factors to look at in credentialing.

Verifying credentials does not mean a guarantee the person is competent, in RL or SL. There are many degreed, licensed clinicians who do harm in their Real Life practices. There is no substitute for educating consumers to make their own informed choices. A verified credential means yes, this person HAS the degree they claim to, the license they say they have, because someone who knows the field contacted the RL organization and checked. I don't see LL doing this anytime soon. So those of us in the field in both worlds are trying to help. It's one option, and seems preferable to doing nothing.

Nearly every licensing body now also has guidelines for internet therapy as well, including limitations and clear warnings about ethics and client safety. There is not yet any clear-cut "THAT'S ILLEGAL!" precedent as far as *forbidding* internet or phone therapy in every case. I can refer you to the guidelines of the American Counseling Association, the American Psychotherapy Association, the APA, the Calif BBS, and dozens more. They are aware of this trend and they keep us informed, educated, and it is a work in progress. Pretending to be a therapist in SL is a different story, and one that we are all watching play out.

Personally, I take the chance to offer support with some issues for some residents who ask because it may be of help. All of them? No, and I'd be suspicious of anyone who claimed that. But if someone, for a variety of valid reasons, has no access to RL help and I can give it responsibly and ethically, I will do so. If I cannot, I will clearly and unequivocally say so, and will do anything I can to help them find the support they need. I talk to other SL supporters, I have a huge list of RL resources, whatever may be of assistance. I think that's what those of us who want to help others should do. And with that will get off MY soapbox...anyone wanting more info, please feel free to IM or email me, I'd be happy to chat more!

I have a question. What is an SL counsellor by chance? to me that sounds like a whole new entity body of specialists? Is there a set of criteria for being named an SL counsellor? I have seen this term floating around quite a bit lately. And I am now seeing this term in profiles quite frequently?

Is an SL counsellor an employee of LL? Are they paid, as I see many sL counsellors seem to want payment for services. ARe they paid by LL or by the individual seeking counsel?

I have seen this lately as well. "SL Counsellor" is not an official or even well-defined term. The only thing one can say definitely about these people is that they are NOT employees of LL (LL would not permit their employees to make any such claim). They are simply residents who have chosen to put those words in their SL profile - no one imposes any criteria or qualification for them to do so. Just like you could say in your profile that you are a billionaire ... who could check?

Most of these people offer advice on RL issues, informal counseling, in SL. Some offer counseling on SL issues. Some do it for free ... in which case their advice is probably worth what you paid for it, unless they are an extension of a RL agency. Some do it as a business in SL, hoping to be paid by the avatar using their services. In this case it would be best to check out their RL credentials, as per the discussion above, before beginning with them.

Your mind is one of the few completely irreplaceable possessions you have. Here is my free consultation to you: do not permit random avatars to mess with it.

When these people are using 'SL' they mean virtual.

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So, has this sL counsellor verification process started already?

Right after they have age verification working

Pep (give it a decade or so)

This is just a discussion on whether or not some mechanism should be put in place. As usual, we would appear to be very much divided in our opinions on the issue. C'est la deuxième vie.

The OP only asks whether Linden Labs should require certification. I personally have no problem with unregulated forms of 'lighter' therapy such as meditation and talk groups. I also accept that it would be difficult for a small company like Linden Labs to regulate the more serious applications and practices of psychotherapy and counseling.

However, I expanded the argument to suggest that if Linden Labs aren't in a position to do so then recognised RL entities and authorities such as universities, health care providers and organisations should be asked to do so through their in-world presences.


In this respect, well-established authorities could play an extremely useful role in developing a code of practice for online services both within SL and elsewhere across the internet as well as helping to stem the very real potential for abuse.

why bother with an inworld regulatory presence (LL or otherwise)?

I do not know of a single jurisdiction that doesn't require licensed professionals to provide that license upon request. furthermore falsifying such a license could easily be countered by the customer contacting said licensing agency. additionally LL has already stated that they will ban and remove accounts of people misrepresenting themselves as licensed professionals.

now if someone uses vague and unregulated terms to describe what they do (whether legitimate or not), it's hardly in LL's interest to police that unless it actually becomes a PR problem.

seriously, every ISP should feed a mandatory warning to each computer as it connects to the internet "Don't take anything for granted. Truth, Lies, and Misconception all use the same font."

That's why they are going to the therapist
Some of my friends in rl would say the same for entire sl nation

Professional organizations may well lead the way for a partial answer to the matter of SL licensing: http://slba.info/

However, a license is no proof of quality and competency. I am sure we all have horror stories to tell.

Most licensed professionals seldom work in the trenches of day to day humanity, preferring the comfort of high paying clientele. Can't says I blame anyone for wanting to earn a decent living as the degree and licensing requirements don't come cheap. However, trench workers often are better qualified because of the diversity of the people they help and many don't have licenses and advanced degrees to post on their walls - some don't even have walls for an office.

[If you need to know what the trenches are, just ask in world, I don't bite.]

Training, experience and a mentor [whatever you wish to call that person], are crucial for providing quality services, and I give credence to the wounded healers.

Me: Just in case you are wondering, or even care, 20 years of trench work, certifications up the wazoo, and and an advanced degree covering stat/research, systems psych, counseling; educator to health care professionals, and lay people, in dementia/mental illness/psych meds/behaviors; a healthy dose of common sense; and a willingness to call a "professional" a lying sack of sh!t nincompoop if what they are doing is harmful to the people I serve.

Exactly, Ephraim. And there is no monopoly on this. No one was doing it, there appeared to be a need (again, in addition to consumer education) so a RL medical dr and the VAI people started a group and made it inclusive to those of us who may be able to help check. Input is welcome to everyone - I have 250 members in the Mental Health Network, publish Wellness Magazine in-world, and make every effort to include anyone who wants to be part of the solution.

We also provide training to peers who want to offer support, and to be honest, it sometimes seems more about what we *can't* do than what we can.

Why do it at all? Because there was a need. Some of us are in SL as part of social service work or projects. We wanted to help. It's one option.

Amaya, I think you meant this as a rhetorical question, being a mentor yourself and that you and I have had this discussion in the past. The answer is - we don't know what each person means who gives themselves that title. Again, the term "counselor" is sort of like buying food that says it is "natural." Great word, but you need to do some checking on each individual package, you know?

There is no official LL sanctioned "SL Counselor" position. Do a few people say there is and claim to be one of the chosen? Yes. They also say they are doctors when they are not, they say they are women when they are men, say they are adults when they are 15, ad infinitum. Let the buyer beware. Asking a person directly what they mean seems to make the most sense. I did this last week with a visitor to Wellness Island. He was there, as many are, to gut my library to furnish his own "counseling center." I asked him about his training and experience. He tried the "brb, someone at the door" thing. He finally came back. I asked him again, nicely. He poofed. Sometimes you can tell a lot by what is NOT said!

Yes, a lot can be inferred from what is not said, but you have said some very interesting things about your own character. Curious phrasing from someone espousing in-world objectivity as a therapist: Gut my library [s/he said that?]. Is it your assumption as to what will be done with that material? Assuming s/he is unqualified? As if training and experience are the be all and end all of qualifications as long as it matches your standards and your culture norms?

Would it have made a difference in your outlook to find out that the person was from a country where they are desperate for resources, may not be fluent in English, and where standards can never be achieved to your western taste? Would you still show disdain for him?

You may think me as coming across as crass and stupid, so be it, but you assume much from an all too brief encounter with that person, and a valid concern should be: Is this is how you also treat your clients?

If you are worried about intellectual theft [Are all your library materials your original work?], maybe you need to make your organization exclusive rather than, as you state, inclusive?

Beware the slippery slope of "professional" arrogance.

Anyone approaching a complete stranger asking for their resource collection better have the ability to explain their motivations. This is common sense. There is no reason that Avalon should spread these documents all over the grid and assist unskilled fakes with their masquerade.

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