Limiting theft by limiting creation

Sierra

I do agree with many of your points. We do have to be careful to avoid alienating people considering entering SL. That said....

Prior to 6/6/06 there were NO free accounts. There was a 10 day trial(free) at the end of which you could either go premium or pay a one time 9.95 fee for a lifetime basic. That's just a part of SL history you have no way to know about.

Using a Visa Gift Card makes you payment info used which is all alot of folks screaming in these threads are asking for. From my perspective I really don't think it would make a huge difference in content theft to force payment info used or not but it seems to make sense to others.

One thing to remember about the forums here. They tend to bring out both the very best (insightful and meaningful help) and the worst (snarky and selfish) in folks. Take everything with a handful of salt and evaluate for yourself.

Welcome to SL. GO create yourself an amazing and beautiful world.

Free accounts started in late 2005. I just missed the start. You still had to provide a credit card, but they dropped the $9.95 fee for Basic (along with things like the reputation bonus and then the Basic stipend) shortly after I joined. What happened in June 2006 was they dropped the requirement for payment info.

I stand corrected on the start but providing payment info would still identify you to some extent (not that I think that would help much). Thanks for the correction it seems like a century since then LOL us old farts forget things sometimes.

Did you see snarky and selfish in this thread?

And they don't work. Or rather, they work at producing what we see now: high churn rate, low economic involvement, and great suppressed resentment and undervaluation creating content theft.

"Regular society" has never had a system to make sure that everyone gets their turn in the spotlight, but it has never needed one.



But can you give me the list of steps you would take?



Well, I was referring to Talarun's comments there. Perhaps you're different. Would you demand that someone paid for a ferret avatar before you treated them like you would a fellow ferret?

I don't see any of these things. You're totally projecting, bubbeleh.

That's only because of Andy Warhol.


1. Create a new account with a different name.
2. Browse for a suitable avatar at Rocket City or Extrovirtual.
3. Visit Silent Sparrow or Bare Rose for threads.
4. Look for a clump of Soylent Green dots.
5. Hang out for a while to see how they taste.
6. Initiate wacky hijinks.


That depends on how they presented themselves. If someone just demanded that I pretend they were a ferret when they were obviously not a ferret, they'd have a hard push. That's why you don't catch Argent in There.com or Blue Mars.

Mikey I was referring to the forums in general and not specifically this thread. Forums in general yep we have our share of snarky and sellfish trolls. All forums do.

And why is what you see more valid what what I see?



No, it's because human society evolved to enable us to get by and alive without killing each other or starving. It didn't evolve to be a marketable entertainment product.



Ah, well, we have a few problems there. You didn't mention how you'd get the money for the avatar and clothing; and you didn't give any detail about step 6. And you still didn't explain why _you_ should be the one who gets to initiate.



Ok. But from what I have seen, that is actually a rare attitude. Most people are like Talarus - if you say you want to be something they'll accomodate you, rather than saying you have to go pay for something first. _Especially_ if they are another newbie who doesn't have any money either.

Because I'm having fun, and you're not. If you want to keep on not having fun, I can't make you. I think it's a shame that you prefer to keep having a bad time in SL, but at this point, after two years of trying to help you have a good one, it's pretty clear where your priorities are.

You should see the clickthroughs I'm getting from my intergalactic banner ads.

Where did I say I should be the one who gets to initiate?

1. I didn't say anyone had to pay for anything first. There's plenty of free avatars out there, some really good ones. I just said that's what I'd do, because I happen to have the money.

2. I suspect there's more people who'll go "yeah right" if you say you're a ferret even if you're in a ferret avatar, than will accept you as a ferret if you're just standing there in a Ken avatar and demanding to be treated as one.

Right, but that's exactly the point. That's why I've mentioned to Argent several times that _initiating_ is key - whoever gets to initiate, gets to set what everyone else is going to be expected to play along with. If you do that, that _is_ social power.

My point is, though... I didn't pay L$3000 for my dragon avatar just to always be playing along with someone else who just wants to use my wing as a prop. And unless you have a system for making sure that there's spotlight sharing, that's always a possibility.



Oh, sure, being nice and getting on with other people is important and I'm not saying people shouldn't do that. What I am saying is that they aren't necesarily going to want to do it all the time. When they spend that L$3000 on an avatar, they aren't doing it in order to be nice to you, they're doing it for themselves. If social pressures arise - deliberately or otherwise - that mean that all they ever get to do in that avatar is go along with what you want, then they're going to feel cheated by the sum total experience.



Sure, but when it costs money, it doesn't just need to "not hurt", it needs to add value. If it costs US$10 then it needs to add, um, about US$10 worth of value to the person's interactions (I'm sorry to say it, but most people do not assign a monetary value to quality of art).

Wrong. It's continual minute-by-minute negotiation. It's cooperation, not competition.

So your point of view is biased towards fun things. Mine is probably biased too, but that doesn't make either bias better than the other. And both churn rate and content theft ARE problems - just look at the documents the Lindens send out to Mentors, or to the threads here complaining about theft. SL's content protection used to be even weaker than it is now, yet there was very little theft - and I'm convinced that the undercurrents of resentment are more than a little to do with that.

Also, I'm not aware that you've ever tried to actually help. You've argued with me and tried to mock me quite a bit, though..



When you said:

6. Initiate wacky hijinks.

You didn't say:

6. If (something) then initate wacky hijinks; else, play along with someone elses.

Your steps offered only one possibility: you initiating.



You said it would be a new avatar with no connection to Argent. It would thus be created with L$0, and giving money to the new avatar from Argent would be a connection.



Well, then you're arguing my point. If buying a ferret avatar doesn't increase the chance that you'll be treated as a ferret, why spend money on it?

That minute-by-minute negotiation is in no way fair; it is heavily biased towards those with greatest social power.

It may not be conscious competition, but at the end of it, you've gotten to act like a ferret and the dragon got to be your prop.

ok...good....for a minute there, I was afraid you were talking about Argent. As long as you prompt him for ferret pics at the appropriate time....he'll calm down.

TWO YEARS AGO I would typically sit down and apend half an hour working on practical suggestions. After a while that palls. I tried the Zen Koan thing for a while, but that didn't work either. Nowadays I'm just kinda winging it.

My steps were there to explain how I would initiate wacky hijinks with another character, because that's the question you asked. I have repeatedly said that I don't have to be the one initiating them, and that I don't have to be the one driving them after they're initiated. Can't you remember something you read less than a day ago?

Crikey, it's got a bigger bloody connection than that. It's got the same bleeding FINGERS on the bleeding KEYBOARD. So obviously I can't have meant "no connection at all at any level". No, it's got no connection that anyone can tell from Second Life. Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and Fred.

I didn't say that, go fucking read what I wrote again and understand it, then come back and try again. See if you can keep track of more than one message at a time, too. If you can't, try scrolling back in the thread.

uh oh....he's using bad words, now.

Most of the practical solutions were "just do it" with no rationale to support them.



You have repeatedly said it, but I'm just not convinced - everything you've described as examples, both here and in other threads, has been too centred around you. I'm also not convinced that if you _never_ got to initate, that you would be as satisfied or having as much fun as you do now. None of your scenarios have ever represented you as a member of the 90% who nobody really cares that much about, and those are important people because.. well.. they're 90% of the population.



So, what would you do if you had, actually, _no_ connection?



Here's what you said:



So, what you've implied - in the first clause of that sentence - is that there's a larger number of people who will not even accept you as a ferret if you're wearing a ferret avatar. So what's the probability that all the people a user turns out to meet will be in that group?

How would I know, I'd be someone else, wouldn't I?

There's three groups of people I'm talking about here. That sentence was comparing the sizes of two of those groups... groups that are in the minority in Second Life.

1. The people who don't consider the avatar a consideration because they don't care what your avatar is.
2. The people who don't consider the avatar a consideration because they're approaching role-playing from a spiritual direction.
3. The people who take the avatar seriously.

In Second Life, the third group is much larger then the first and second groups put together, and the second group is really small. Why? Because the people who reject role playing completely are more likely to be in traditional "social networking" systems, and the people who don't care about the avatar from the point of view of role playing tend to still be back in text-based virtual worlds and think faffing around in the limited capabilities of 3d a waste of time.

Too small to consider.

That's typical of any social situation. Someone initiates a conversation. People join in. The conversation concludes. Either someone else initiates a conversation, or people scatter to find other conversations to join. There's no barrier to starting or even just participating in a conversation, except one's own shyness. That's OK, though. In time, even that can be overcome, especially as people find ways to include you explicitly in what is going on.

If I join a group of people I encounter like you are saying, I hang around for a bit and listen, then hop in when/if I think the time is right for me to do so. I don't just "jump in" and take over attention from the others, that is just plain rude (well, not usually, anyway; if I know most present well enough, and there's a good reason for it that I think everyone will enjoy, like a sight gag or something, I might).

Initiating is spontaneous, and ANYone can initiate ANYtime, pretty much. If you are feeling excluded in one group, find another, or start your own. If no one will pass you the ball in one group, then find another group who will, or rez your own and start playing. If your play is interesting enough, you'll attract a group to play with you.

You seem to think that the whole concept is fraught with drama/attention whores who dominate the social scene, but it simply isn't so. Those kinds of people soon find themselves consistently without an audience, and if they insist, they will soon find themselves booted from the venue by the management, since their antics are basically turning into harassment. I think the problem is that you just don't have the experience and are making HUGE leaps of presumption based on that lack of experience. Try it before you judge it, OK?



The fact that I have a Dragon avatar doesn't mean I am always required to participate in any particular group in any presumed role. I can always choose to IGNORE any particular antic I wish. For example, I've had "maidens" throw themselves (or be thrown) at my feet to be "eaten" or otherwise abused as they (or their dommes) believe a Dragon should, based on some pre-conceived stereotype. I can simply ignore it, because I'm Not That Kind Of Dragon, but even then, I often find a humorous and enjoyable way to deal with it. "No thanks, I already had my biweekly meal." "I'm on a virgin-free diet at the moment." "Ugh.. I don't eat sentients, sorry." et cetera.

"Spotlight sharing", as you call it, simply happens, because for it not to happen would result in an automatic corrective action to restore it, based on nothing more than basic human behavior. Like Argent said, it is the "social contract". Those who don't play along don't get to play along in the future, as people, as you say, tire of not getting what they consider as their fair share of attention. For those who think their fair share is far more than any other, they will soon find themselves with an even more meager share than what others are enjoying until they correct their "appetite".

Again, I think you should try it before you judge it. It sounds to me like your preconceived notions are warping your perspective.



No, but if they aren't "nice" enough of the time, they will get a reciprocal level of treatment from others. No one has to put up with any bullshit when they have no reason to. If someone is not being nice, or not sharing the ball, or spotlight, or whatever, people, as a group, will simply take the ball and go play elsewhere, shunning the poor sod who fails in social manners.

People wear expensive avatars for several reasons, but the most important, yes, is for their own edification. I assume my form for my own enjoyment, sure, but it isn't the only reason I do. Others like to look at it; I get compliments regularly on it. It advertises my "self" to others, and those who ignore it do so at their own peril if they decide that I am simply a monkey wearing a "suit".

If "social pressures" arise, with people continually abusing me as some kind of prop for their amusement, failing to allow me any real participation, guess what happens? I leave and find a group of people who aren't utter morons. That said, I have still had fun in even those situations, because I am secure in my own self-importance, and can sit idly by while the monkey children crawl all over the Ancient Lord of the Winds (can you say "demonstration of the Discipline of Eternal Patience"?). Hell, I have even turned those situations around to where I was the center of attention for a short time, effectively snatching "their ball" in a pass and running with it. If everyone involved has a good time, who is to say that it was a bad thing to do? ("Interception! SCORE!".

Again, if someone feels excluded or otherwise ignored/tread upon by one group, there are literally HUNDREDS to THOUSANDS of others that form/meet regularly where one can find inclusion. Groups that are exclusionary rarely last and, even if they do, so what? There's no law that says a group HAS to include everyone. Find another that isn't that way. They are the exception, not the rule.



Well, let me tell you, from my experience (take it for whatever you think it is worth), IT ADDS VALUE. I am not looking for it to add some kind of monetary value. To me, enjoyable social interaction with my fellow sentient beings is worth more than ANY pile of money you could shove under my snout (well, unless it is silver/gold/platinum/jewels... accursed shinies, I love them so!). So, no, it doesn't have to add US$10 worth of value to my interactions, because I simply don't value friendships or experiences with others in monetary terms. Remember, from your own argument, I bought the avatar PRIMARILY for my own edification; anything else I get out of it in a social sense is a priceless bonus.

As for most people not assigning a monetary value to quality of art, I have to most strenuously disagree. If that were true, an artist could sell his worst works for the same price as his best works, and that's simply not the case. Someone who links a jumble of prims together in some vague representation of a Dragon is unlikely to make anywhere near as much for his efforts as someone who painstakingly and lovingly gives a semblance of life-likeness to his. Otherwise, places like the Isle wouldn't exist, because no one would be willing to pay that US$10-15 for a limited-edition Daryth Dragon avatar versus the YadNi freebie one (not that YadNi's freebie Dragon avatar is awful, but it's definitely not very popular).

"Social power" is illusory. If you want to subscribe to the notion that someone else has "social power" over you, then you are the one giving that "power" up to another; no one can "take" it from you.

In short, if you feel like someone is taking the spotlight unfairly, you are free to 1) take it back, 2) ignore him, or 3) leave to find another group which doesn't have a drama/attention whore attempting to monopolize the scene. Chances are, everyone else will follow you.



For that moment. The next moment, I sit down on top of him or accidentally swat him with my tail without "realizing" it. Or, maybe I curl my tail around him and pull him close to my leg and under my wing more protectively. Or maybe I just totally ignore it and continue on with something else. Why should it bother me to be used as a prop once in a while? I HAVE the wings, I'm big, and small critters seeking protection can't do any better than looking to me for it (I mean, as long as I am not evil/hungry/mischievous/etc). In fact, I daresay that simple act of him BEING the ferret seeking shelter under my wing exhorts my "self" as a Dragon, so without me doing anything, he's sharing his spotlight with me by including a very fundamental element of my existence in his activities.

Like Argent said, it changes minute by minute, and people can play along (for better/worse), ignore it, or simply leave for greener pastures if they are feeling abused.

Yes, sure. But when it's conversation it's much more general than the kind of "freeform role-play" that Argent seems to be talking about. The person who initates doesn't just set the starting topic of the conversation, they can also establish rules of the "scene" that will stick permanently.



If there isn't a group already around, then I am playing on my own, and no-one will notice.



No, the whole concept is fraught with cool, friendly guys and gals who dominate the social scene. Nobody's going to complain about it and boot them out, but they're still going to feel quietly unsatisfied and resentful, because ultimately they ARE still being dominated, even if they have no grounds to complain.



Right, but that still doesn't prevent the situation where someone doesn't get their fair share AT ALL. That doesn't necessarily mean that someone else actively tried to barge them out of the way - it's something that can "just happen" if there isn't an actual formal system in place that says, "your turn is now".



Yes, but we also all know that the "cool kids" very often _don't_ fail in any way in social manners, yet still get what they want socially much more often than others do. That shows that there is a second, very subtle, layer of competition going on - that, _within_ all the social contracts of (apparant) niceness and (apparant) fairness, there are still winners and losers.



How do you know they were actually having a good time rather than just not making it obvious they weren't enjoying themselves (because that's an antisocial thing to do)?



And most of these groups are next to impossible to find, because they only form as a result of people happening to bump into each other and becoming circles of friends. They don't advertise and trying to actually say, "can I join you" is a lot more artificial than the osmotic way in which they originally formed. Again, these groups are just too small compared to the population size, and after a few weeks of hanging out in generic clubs in the hope of meeting people, that dragon avatar will look like a pretty bad buy.



Yes, but most people are not paying that US$10 for a good looking dragon avatar out of artistic appreciation. They are paying that US$10 for the ability to look like a better dragon than others and gain social standing because of it.

You assume that they're a "drama/attention whore" but they're not. They're a cool person whom everyone likes and who is seen as a great roleplayer. Most people like them; they probably don't even feel any animosity towards them. But that doesn't mean that those other people still aren't, quietly, being dominated; and when they log out for the night, they still feel unfulfilled.

It's that ferret patience/attention span. Only slightly longer than a Dragon's once shinies get introduced into the mix. <.<

Sometimes, "just do it" is the best way to learn, especially when someone is WAY overthinking the issues without involving the most critical component: first-hand experience.

But the problem is, if I try to just ignore myself and "do it" then I'm going to come unstuck. Because sooner or later I'm going to need to make a lower level choice (if I'm "just" building, which prim do I rez? if I'm "just" roleplaying, which words do I type?) which I will not be able to do because all the decision-making part of my brain will be prepared to come back with is "hey, don't ask me; I said not to do it in the first place."