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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
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11-01-2007 12:15
From: Nina Stepford if i had a penny for everytime a vegetarian has asked for chips (tallow), bread (dairy), pasta (eggs), etc i would be a rich man.
to be a pure vegan takes enormous effort and great knowledge of food. it isnt a simple matter of not ordering meat. What kind of bread do you eat? Last I checked, a typical baguette has flour, salt, water, yeast, and a touch of sugar. No dairy... Chips (french fries) can be fried in peanut oil or corn oil, and very often are in the US. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
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11-01-2007 12:21
Most good biscuits have milk in them. I put milk and eggs both in my cornbread.
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Nina Stepford
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Join date: 26 Mar 2007
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11-01-2007 12:23
aside from the common egg wash and the release sprays commonly used: (c&p job here) " Q: Is bread a vegan food?
A: Not usually. Many of the breads sold in grocery stores contain non-vegan ingredients, including milk, eggs, honey, shortening or whey--not to mention sodium stearyl lactylate, glycerides, emulsifiers, natural flavorings, artificial flavorings and lactase, all of which may be derived from animals. " while cottonseed oil is usually used in the resaurant fryer, chips are nearly always parfried in tallow at the chip factory. From: Oryx Tempel What kind of bread do you eat? Last I checked, a typical baguette has flour, salt, water, yeast, and a touch of sugar. No dairy...
Chips (french fries) can be fried in peanut oil or corn oil, and very often are in the US. |
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Har Fairweather
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Join date: 24 Jan 2007
Posts: 2,320
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11-01-2007 12:27
Apropos bumpersticker - and one of my all time favorites:
Save an animal - Eat a vegetarian!
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Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
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11-01-2007 12:31
From: Nina Stepford aside from the common egg wash and the release sprays commonly used:
(c&p job here)
" Q: Is bread a vegan food?
A: Not usually. Many of the breads sold in grocery stores contain non-vegan ingredients, including milk, eggs, honey, shortening or whey--not to mention sodium stearyl lactylate, glycerides, emulsifiers, natural flavorings, artificial flavorings and lactase, all of which may be derived from animals. "
while cottonseed oil is usually used in the resaurant fryer, chips are nearly always parfried in tallow at the chip factory. There is a difference in preferred ingredients obviously between your part of the world and ours. Most everyday breads here do not contain those ingredients and most restaurants here don't use tallow for deep frying.
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
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11-01-2007 12:37
From: Nina Stepford while cottonseed oil is usually used in the resaurant fryer, chips are nearly always parfried in tallow at the chip factory. Yeah.... if you eat chips from a factory. Even McDonald's uses: From: someone Prepared in vegetable oil ((may contain one of the following: Canola oil, corn oil, soybean oil, hydrogenated soybean oil, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, partially hydrogenated corn oil with TBHQ and citric acid added to preserve freshness), to fry in; no animal fats there at all. |
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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11-01-2007 12:39
Hmmm are yeast organisms considered animal matter? If so can a vegan eat leavened bread?
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart
“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-01-2007 12:40
reastaurants dont use tallow. the chip factory does. store bought bread WILL contain those ingredients. restaurant breads may or may not, depending on whether or not they bake their own bread. even if they do most breads (baguette an exception) will contain fat (a common source of animal product), or be egg washed and most definitely will have release sprayed into the pans. From: Brenda Connolly There is a difference in preferred ingredients obviously between your part of the world and ours. Most everyday breads here do not contain those ingredients and most restaurants here don't use tallow for deep frying. |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-01-2007 12:42
the point is that the people that manufacture the chips parfry them. and they favour tallow because it makes a nice crisp chip. unless your restaurant is hand cutting chips in-house, they are likely full of tallow. From: Oryx Tempel Yeah.... if you eat chips from a factory. Even McDonald's uses:
to fry in; no animal fats there at all. |
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
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11-01-2007 12:43
I worked as a bread baker for 2 years. 99% of all our breads were animal product free. The only exception was the challah.
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
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11-01-2007 12:45
even the release spray?
nothing got washed?
ive been a chef for 20 years and i see animal product in nearly everything, even in the bakeshop.
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Oryx Tempel
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11-01-2007 12:50
From: Nina Stepford even the release spray?
nothing got washed?
ive been a chef for 20 years and i see animal product in nearly everything, even in the bakeshop. No release spray; we baked straight on the deck in the oven, so no pans. The release spray that WAS used for other stuff (not bread) was pure vegetable oil. Nina, I'm not saying that NOTHING in a bakeshop has animal products. Of course typical baked goods have animal products (what's a croissant without butter). I'm saying that it IS possible, and can be done very easily. Why are you arguing with me? |
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Sally Silvera
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Join date: 17 Feb 2007
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11-01-2007 12:59
From: Har Fairweather Apropos bumpersticker - and one of my all time favorites:
Save an animal - Eat a vegetarian! Was told this joke recently: Q: what do vegetarian cannibals eat? A: greengrocers |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-01-2007 13:01
i dont think im arguing. im just defending my position that vegans shouldnt assume that bread is a safe thing unless they bake it themselves. you say 99% of your breads were animal free, but ive seen the opposite in my experience. some examples: pita bread: shortening naan: ghee or eggs or even both whites: eggs or even buttermilk peasant loaf: cheese potato bread: butter french stick: shortening pumpernickel: eggs banana bread: butter From: Oryx Tempel No release spray; we baked straight on the deck in the oven, so no pans. The release spray that WAS used for other stuff (not bread) was pure vegetable oil.
Nina, I'm not saying that NOTHING in a bakeshop has animal products. Of course typical baked goods have animal products (what's a croissant without butter). I'm saying that it IS possible, and can be done very easily. Why are you arguing with me? |
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Argent Asbrink
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Join date: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 217
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11-01-2007 13:02
From: Sally Silvera Anyhooooo, as a vegetarian myself I can attest to the fact that it is perfectly possible to be perfectly healthy while refraining from eating anything that once had a face.
Facist! Vegetable killer! MONSTER! |
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Colette Meiji
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11-01-2007 13:04
well plenty of people who aren't vegetarians have unhealthy diets.
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Argent Asbrink
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Join date: 27 Jul 2007
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11-01-2007 13:04
From: Oryx Tempel I worked as a bread baker for 2 years. 99% of all our breads were animal product free. The only exception was the challah. Except for all the spiders and cockroaches that accidentally fell in the dough mixers. |
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Brenda Connolly
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11-01-2007 13:10
From: Nina Stepford reastaurants dont use tallow. the chip factory does.
store bought bread WILL contain those ingredients. restaurant breads may or may not, depending on whether or not they bake their own bread. even if they do most breads (baguette an exception) will contain fat (a common source of animal product), or be egg washed and most definitely will have release sprayed into the pans. No. A baguette , Italian or French Loaf, or a Rye Loaf that I get does not containg those ingredients, I can read label. And Tallow and Lard are rarely used for frying, even i commercial applications. No one is doubting how you say things are made where you live. It doesn't necessarily mean it is done everywhere. but more importantly, as Oryx said, why is this becoming an argument?
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
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11-01-2007 13:11
i worked at a chinese bakery once. the place was so filthy that the cockroaches go crowded out of their favourite spot (above the coolroom) and took up residence inside the motor mechanism of the hobart mixer. every morning when you started it roaches would rush out. at night once we left the roaches (attracted by the heat) would return to the hobart  From: Argent Asbrink Except for all the spiders and cockroaches that accidentally fell in the dough mixers. |
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Argent Asbrink
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Join date: 27 Jul 2007
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11-01-2007 13:13
From: Nina Stepford i worked at a chinese bakery once. the place was so filthy that the cockroaches go crowded out of their favourite spot (above the coolroom) and took up residence inside the motor mechanism of the hobart mixer. every morning when you started it roaches would rush out. at night once we left the roaches (attracted by the heat) would return to the hobart You've made me want to pour gasoline on myself and light a match. |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-01-2007 13:14
that chinese bakery was in silverlake. thats los angeles. ive been a chef on three continents. i know this trade and i know food. chip manufacturers love tallow. bakers love fat. its becoming an argument because i am not conceding that bread is nearly universally vegan and thus a super safe bet for vegans to order in a restaurant. From: Brenda Connolly No. A baguette , Italian or French Loaf, or a Rye Loaf that I get does not containg those ingredients, I can read label. And Tallow and Lard are rarely used for frying, even i commercial applications. No one is doubting how you say things are made where you live. It doesn't necessarily mean it is done everywhere. but more importantly, as oOx said, why is this becoming an argument? |
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
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11-01-2007 13:16
and a real bakehouse wont have a label. if they do i suspect everything is made from a premix and thats not what i am talking about.
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Oryx Tempel
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11-01-2007 13:16
From: Nina Stepford i dont think im arguing. im just defending my position that vegans shouldnt assume that bread is a safe thing unless they bake it themselves. you say 99% of your breads were animal free, but ive seen the opposite in my experience. some examples:
pita bread: shortening
naan: ghee or eggs or even both
whites: eggs or even buttermilk
peasant loaf: cheese
potato bread: butter
french stick: shortening
pumpernickel: eggs
banana bread: butter *sigh* Shortening is 100% vegetable. You're thinking of lard or tallow. Look up http://www.crisco.com/about/prod_info.asp?groupID=17&catId=63&FlavorId=229For white/wheat bread: Here are the ingredients for Grant's Farm whole wheat bread, a popular brand in the US: From: someone INGREDIENTS:
Stone ground whole wheat flour, water, corn syrup, wheat gluten, yeast, contains 2% or less of each of the following: honey, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, salt, dough conditioners (may contain one or more of each of the following: mono- and diglycerides, ethoxylated mono- and diglycerides, calcium and sodium stearoyl lactylates, calcium peroxide, calcium carbonate), whey, yeast nutrients (mono-calcium phosphate, calcium sulfate, ammonium sulfate), distilled vinegar, cornstarch.
A typical pumpernickel recipe: From: someone FOR 1-½ LB. LOAF
1 1/2 pk yeast
2 cup rye flour
1/2 cup Unprocessed whole-bran cereal
1 3/4 cup Bread flour
2 tsp. Carroway seed
1 1/2 tsp. Salt
1 tbsp. Unsweetened cocoa
3 tbsp. molasses
1 tbsp. Vegatable oil
1 1/4 cup Warm water
French "stick" (aka baguette) has flour, sugar, salt, yeast, and water. No oils at all. Yes, banana breads contain eggs, and naan has ghee. Potato bread can be made with shortening as opposed to butter, and peasant bread certainly doesn't require cheese as an ingredient. |
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
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11-01-2007 13:19
And I understand your point, I really do.
Just to point out, though, that any bakehouse worth its salt (haha) SHOULD have readily available an ingredients table, so that people with allergies can ask. Ours did, and we were an entirely from scratch operation.
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
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11-01-2007 13:21
technically, lard and tallow are both shortening, but i take you point. yes crisco is vegetable and its usually what one associates with 'shortening'.
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