Ok well I like this part

I know! They get their money whether you have a good month or a bad month. Good gig for them...



Yes, it's an expense. Agreed. It cuts into your profit (or increases your loss). They are still profiting from your attempts to sell in-world. This xstreetsl really only shifts the logistics of how they do that.

I see your point, Phil. I just don't agree that it's evil. They are competing with your search manipulation, and yes, taking a cut while they do it. So for you it sucks. But for those who don't want to set up bots or do camping chairs, contests, or other ways to market themselves, it's great. 95% of something is much better than 100% of nothin'. Add to that the fact that one doesn't need an in-world store (and thus no tier) and it's a real winner. IMHO.

ok but that is just part of business if you decide to let that business pay for itself..
no sales and the bil is still coming in..
any expenses would be a cut from my sales unless i was still in start up growing pains pulling out of pocket or pulling from another company to cushion until this one took root..

i chose to pay for my land this way..it's not on consignment so there is a consistent pay date no matter what i have on the land..

i guess i am saying LL doesn't care if you pay for it with your sales or out of pocket..they are not in the retail business in this branch..this is land side of LL..

Xstreet is consignment and that side can only pay for itself when items are sold..
thats the deal for free advertisement..sell something they make money don't and you don't pay anything to them..

and i know you already know this too..

i am more or less showing i understand as well lol

i think the problem is some are looking at LL land and LL xstreet as the same branch of company and corporations own many branches of companies that are not related but can cross paths..

maybe if legend city and openlife were buying from there we could say expect some sort of fringe benefit or discount..but xstreet is made for sl and there really is no reason we should expect any more or less from xstreet then and now..

ok i'm making some freaking tea now hahahaha

I never said it's evil. LL shouldn't be competing with traders is what I'm saying.

They not competing with anything that I do. I have never been talking about me, or any effect it might have on me. I have no interest whatsoever in any of it for myself. I honestly don't care one bit if LL's competition kills my store. As I said earlier, and also a very long time ago, I've wanted a way for it to end for a long time - I'm just not willing to simply turn the money off, because it would be a stupid thing to do, so I continue as long as it's worthwhile.

Yes, of course 95% of something is better that 100% of nothing. Nobody has suggested anything different. All that's being said is that LL, as the service provider, should not be the company that is taking the 5% when they are capable of influencing where people buy. They are doing it already in quite a big way, and they could do it in a much bigger way in the future.

I don't insist that everyone agrees. But I think it's very significant - that's all.

it's only 5%??
thats not a slice..thats a crumb hahaha

From my iphone so forgive me any typos
The conflict of interest towards merchants seems pretty clear to me, if they would implement XSSL in-world. The merchant, paying tier for their land to LL prefers to sell through SL. LL collects the tier for the land that the shop is on, benefits more from the sales through XSSL. Seems they would want my money for the shopspace, but at the same time prefer the shopper to spend cash elsewhere then in my shop.

As for the search haming related to this. Over there search is gamed as well. At the same time even integrating XSSL search into the client would not reduce gaming of other searches. Bots will remain as long as places search is there. Picks paying will remain as long as people think it helps them on search all. XSSL wont help in that.

What it will mean to the consumer I am not sure. But for the merchant is sure is not the best news. Though my in-world sales are still on the rise, no gaming involved

A couple of points....one is that i pay the same amount for my land tier every month regardless of my sales. The more i sell, the more i profit, but the expenses paid out are the same. in xlstreet, the more i sell, the more i pay. for someone with a high volume of sales, 5% could be substantially more than land tier cost...so LL is getting a much larger cut of my income.

also - as for the whole "gaming" thing. on xlstreet you can pay HUGE amounts of money to get prime placements on individual pages or the top of the main page etc. to me that equates to the classifieds we have in world. the more you pay, the higher up on the page you appear. same goes for the names of items. if you know how to do search optimization, you can apply it to your items in xlstreet just as you can your parcels or item names in world. so this nonsense about everyone being equal on xlstreet is simply not true. just as in world, if you know how to market yourself in that medium and are willing to spend the time and pay the costs...then you will appear higher, more often, etc in xlstreet than your competitors who may not know how or dont care to do the same things.

btw - search optimization is not gaming whether it is in world or in xlstreet....and it will be used well by those savvy enough in both to get them top positions in searches etc.

gaming it or buying it or playing it manipulating it..
whatever people want to call it...it's in anything..it's a part of business everywhere..you are not gonna find a fair system..anything can be gamed or paid for or manipulated..
it's just a fact of life..heck it doesn't even have to be business..
there are ways to beat the search..it just takes longer..

xstreet itself you are not paying them a dime really..it's not an expense..they are getting 5% for a sale you would have never had so there is no loss there because inventories are endless supply.it's all profit in that sense and goes to pay expenses...you couldn't claim the 5% as income you would have to take the 5% off in itemized deductions as a loss on an item not as income spent..you couldn't even cut them a 1099 misc for commision..but thats if it were RL anyways hehehehe
so really it's just them selling your stuff and getting a commission off the top before you ever see it..they could sell it for twice as much as you put it up for and keep the overage and you are still only losing the 5% loss on the item..not the money.

camping or bots or dumping tons of money into classifieds..it's always gonna be something..because business is about survival of the fittest and just like life it's gonna be hard to find much fair in it..

it all just comes down to what kind of player you want to be in the business world..

Ceka you are missing the point.

It is not about the 5% about a sale that would not have been there. It is about a sale done through XStreetSL instead of though in-world.

Imagine the following example.
Someone is looking for a dress in a certain style, let's say Victorian.

What they could do now is: Use Search All with the query "+Victorian +dress". And Store A pops somewhere on page 1, and does look pretty interesting. They spend 1000 linden in the store.

Now what if XStreetSL search is going to be integrated?
The same person does the search "+Victorian +Dress" and comes up with the same merchant. As soon as they sped the same amount of 1000 linden at XStreetSL, the merchant pays 50 linden commission, where in-world they would have gotten the full 1000.

However, in order to be available at XStreetSL, as well as being found there, they will need to spend much more work. So, their tier for the in-world store stays the same, their work increases a lot, and in the end they will earn less.

Now it is no discussion about whether 50 linden is much or not. It is simply the fact that LL takes our money (our as in: in-world content creators) from tier, and try to take a 5% cut from our sales as well. If, and only if, they are going to actively promote XStreetSL. Like adding it to in-world search.

@Jojogirl: There is a difference between optimizing and cheating though.
What happens at XStreetSL is that with a handful of Alt accounts, people make sure they get high in rankings right after releasing an item. They give rankings (stars) to themselves, and add positive reviews. But more then that: they do the exact same at their competitors, but just the opposite way around: bad reviews and ratings. All of that is happening, of course only by a very small minority, but it happens way too often. We have seen holiday stuff being removed (for whatever what reason), come back under an alts name, and get to #1 in sales ranking within hours. Read up on the forums there, ratings and reviews are the biggest concern as there is no way to check whether they are legitimate. Believe me, compared to that, traffic bots are sweet

i don't think they would put it in with the other adds when say you type in shirt and get your paid add and all xstreet adds..
it wouldn't make sense to intergrate it into another system already gamed for search position..if it were mine and i coded it i'd give it it's own tab along side all the other tabs..because there is more than one search in the search program.
i think it would get it's own tab..

my last post had nothing to do with it being in world..
but more or less there is always going to be some game in town.because it's hard to find a system that is gonna be fair..

the 5% was more directed to JoJoGirls look at the 5% being an expense and which it's really not an expense because it's not being spent..

Right now, Xstreet have no way of checking the possible connection btween a merchant and those that buy - and rate and give glowing reviews.
If the thing is integrasted fully into SL, the LL would have the option of checking the connections.

At least the cheats in Xstreet have to pay for their cheating and pay continually, as the sales volume has to be ongoing or the ranking slips.
When they cheat by passing money to alts or friends for purchasing then thay have to lose a percentage of the money.

Yes, the low-lifes are going to find any way to cheat that they can. That doen't mean that we just roll over and give up.
I would say that in Xstreet, the effect of the cheating is diminished by the ease and speed with which we can zip up and down the listings and get to see the items.
Cheating in SL Search has a more powerful effect as people normally don't want to TP to endless stores to find and compare.


There's nothing wrong with optimising - as in using appropriate wording in names and advertising descriptions.
Artificially inflating traffic isn't 'optimising'. It's cheating.
Paying for picks is as bad.

Paying for what is clearly a paid placement isn't cheating.
That being said, the way Xstreet differentiates paid-for places could be more transparent. There's something about the term "Featured Item" that feels a bit misleading.

Well it does depend on what is perceived as fair too

My position in Search All is #4. No gaming at all. Did try paying for picks, but saw no improvement, so I stopped that. And I did work hard to get where I am. Still, some are convinced I found "teh secrets" and game the system as well.

One of my competitors is Phil. He is on #1. Why? If I knew I would beat him He does have more knowledge about search then I have, sells lots more stuff, and hell, he helped me as much as he could even. Is it fair he is on #1 because he knows more then I do?

Search All is, in my opinion, the fairest system available at the moment. Add a method of ranking items, and giving reviews and comments to it, and it becomes a lot less fair, you'll see. Because if those are abused, it is in very nasty ways. Ask the victims on XStreetSL.

One thing I do agree on: The way search on XStreetSL displays results is way better. Instead of a list of shops you see pics of the items, which is much more useful.

no because it can be gamed you don't roll over and just give up..i hope that wasn't the way you think i was looking at it..
in business when you run into a wall you can find a way over it or around it..
it's gonna be one tight squeeze trying to go through it hahahah

basically you find another way other than the norm..i'm not trying to make it sound like it's easy or anything but there is more than one way to skin a cat..

Sling, imagine it the other way around, and yes this DOES happen:

You and I never agree in here. So you gather some friends and give me bad comments on each of my items (you do not even have to buy the items for that!!). Buy some items and rank them with 1 star. Write killing reviews. All because you have a grudge.

The saddest is your first paragraph, because you are right there: LL could see what happened, and turn things back, even punish you ad your friends for slander... but the way they operate things right now, do you think they would? With what resources? Indeed they could improve things, but from the experiences in the last year or so, I sincerely doubt they would go the right way with this. Probably my AR wound be answered with: we do not interfere with resident disputes

It would be nice if their main interest was improve user experience. But their main interest is getting in money, they are a company after all. So I fully understand their move on SLX, but that doesn't mean I think it is a good one.

The paid ads on slstreet are very transparent. just look at the various things they offer and match them up with what you see on the page. anything in a blue box or with the word featured or on the beginning marketplace page or on the banner at the top of the page are paid for. tbh i never noticed this when i was just a shopper and not a vendor. when i search for white shirt and the filter thingy says they are sorted for relevence, i assumed that the ones at the top matched my request the most...not that someone had paid to be at the top of that page. once i realized there was a system and looked into it, i understood more what i was seeing. i suspect that most buyers wont go to that extent to find out why those items are on the top.

i disagree about the 5% not being an expense...it may not be an "expense" as defined by the IRS, but it is certainly lost income to me compared to what i make in world when i sell the same item at the same price. i suppose i could increase my prices by 5% so that i would not see the lost income...but is that fair to my customers? i might consider doing that in order to drive even more traffic to my store. i did purchase some textures yesterday in world that were priced at 300L on xlstreet and were only 10L in world for the same package. i suspect the vendor simply forgot that the items were priced higher on xlstreet or might have been having a sale in world...but it sure makes me want to do more comparison shopping before i buy on xlstreet to be sure im paying the lowest price for the same item. that in itself does help drive me to the creator, but does not speed up my shopping experience if i still have to run to each store.

i do agree that the search is better. i wish that type of search could be incorporated into the in world items for sale that we have designated as "show in search."

IF I remember correctly though, it is against the tos of xstreetsl to have items listed there with higher prices than they are in world...


checking to confirm my memory is correct



bolding mine, however reading through the entire tos and listing guidelines, just shows me how many people break these rules each and every day on xstreetsl
(just as people break the rules each and every day on SL)

i can understand it feeling like a loss or expense but it's not.

yes any service you use you would want to adjust what you feel is taking away from what you feel you need to cover your expense to run your business..

see the only reason you see it as an expense is because you did not change your price to adjust for the 5% and compare it to what you would have made in world..you can't do that in business and say you lost it..because you have only gained by the service not lost.


the definition is not from the IRS..that was just an example because in each country it changes for taxes..
basically anything you have not earned in some manner is not income and if it's not income you are not in control it's outgoing..
the 95% is all that is earned and will always be what is earned with xstreet no matter what your price is..

but yes i would adjust my price to cover that service or even if you feel it takes a little more time to deal with Xstreet with putting adds and things you may even want to go a little higher..it all depends on the market..
no sense in selling short for sure hehehehe

would covering the 5% difference be inflating the price or adjusting it?
i would think putting your Xstreet price and inworld price on your inworld add would cover you in a rule like that since you are really not being dishonest..you are providing choice..

Hmmm, but didn't you state that if your business is no longer findable due to xstreet you will give it up? Which means less bots and therefore does indeed make a difference.

I'll just change my ravings slightly:


LESS BOTS THAN NOW, LESS BOTS THAN NOW, LESS BOTS THAN NOW!!!!

WOOT WOOT WOOT!!!!!

DOWN WITH THE BOTS!!!!!!

That's a bit screwed up. I *did* state that...

But I didn't state that I'd close the shop because of anything to do with XSSL - I'll close it if and when it's not worthwhile keeping it, whatever the reason. If LL's handling of XSSL causes it, it will be a long time in the future.

Yes, *once you know* what the blue bounding box is, and realise that "Featured Items" means "Paid listing" rather than 'Hey, these are so good that we want to bring them to your attention'...... then it's not a problem.
Up to that point, the innocent assumption that the leading items on a page are somhow "better/more_relevant".




I did write back in the thread that I always TP to the store if there's a link to it.
I don't do that to check prices, although I've occasionally found a difference.
I go there to get a better feel for the merchant and what they do. Looking around a store and at the seller's profile is a substitute for a reputation system.

Even if some or many people TP to the store to check 'feeling' or price before buying, it's still less TPing, as we are checking on a single place or a shortlist.
With the current in-world Search, we have to spend time to TP and rezz through a fairly arbitrary list of 'relevant' in order to do what Xstreet enables us to do fairly painlessly.

If there is a price uplift from in-world to Xstreet, we could look at it as a sort of concierge service charge. We're saved the agony of all that TP and Rezzzzz. With some stores, it can take an age before you can rezz and cam around the whole place. Any uplift would be minor in terms of RL time v. equivalent L$ cost for the time.


But then ....
When I go shopping, I'm looking for something specific.
I'm not going shopping just to shop. The closest I get to that is stumbling over something while I'm socialising or just wandering about.

I dunno, but the rule doesn't say anything about honesty, just about having higher prices on xstreet than in world or other web based places

and who knows if LL will keep that rule... only time will tell

heck for all we know they might even remove the commission

for now it stays, but who knows what the future holds

*shrug*

I just wait and see

ya it does seem like they would change it in some way..mainly because it mentions other e-commerce sites along with in world..so it's really kind of strange..

i'm sure they are gonna fiddle with the whole thing..
i hope for the better lol