Clubwatch

Kevyn........one more time. The words/terms are not the same. Perhaps an old fashioned way but try this:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Blacklist

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
black·list /ˈblækˌlɪst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blak-list] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a list of persons under suspicion, disfavor, censure, etc.: His record as an anarchist put him on the government's blacklist.
2. a list privately exchanged among employers, containing the names of persons to be barred from employment because of untrustworthiness or for holding opinions considered undesirable.
3. a list drawn up by a labor union, containing the names of employers to be boycotted for unfair labor practices.
–verb (used with object) 4. to put (a person, group, company, etc.) on a blacklist.


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[Origin: 1610–20; black + list1]


—Synonyms 4. blackball, bar, debar, proscribe, ban, shun, ostracize.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Watchlist

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
watch list
–noun a list of persons or things to watch for possible action in the future: a watch list of possible growth stocks.

Also, watchlist.


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[Origin: 1970–75]
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.


Word meanings may change over time........but as of now, the two do not mean the same thing.

A real dictionary is not hard to use........and has a proven track record. You might try dusting yours off.

Perhaps you neglected to read what you actually cut and pasted, let's look at what the number 1 (yes, the very first) definition of a blacklist is, according to your very own source:

1. a list of persons under suspicion, disfavor, censure, etc.:

Now, tell me how what the OP posted is *not* a list of persons under suspicion.

You might try actually reading what you post, rather than just cutting and pasting.

Much of actual dictionary research work is done by Grad Students trying to make a little money to cover their costs of living and tuition.

They are far from overly enthused about their subject.

And of course they are limited in discussing any one particular term in the interests of Brevity.

I never unsderstood this presumed infalability of Dictonaries.

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Reguardless this group comes pretty close to the #1 definition of "Black List" you have posted. And its not a far stretch from #2 either.

I guess you two don't see the difference in definition number 1 for blacklist and this:

watch list
–noun a list of persons or things to watch for possible action in the future: a watch list of possible growth stocks.

It's not the same.........sorry, can't convince me nor can you do anything to alter the fact.

And the source is not under grads trying to make beer money..........it's Random House. Heard of it?

I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise, of course you yourself can't seem to verbalize what you see as the difference. What specific differences, in your own words, are there between a blacklist and a watchlist, beyond "it is not the same", which is hardly an argument or a reasoned explanation.

And you still haven't shown how what the OP posted is anything other that a list of persons under suspicion, which by your own definition is in fact a blacklist. Call it a watchlist as well if that makes you fell better, but you've yet to show that it is not a blacklist.

Blacklist..............person marked and "convicted'.

Watchlist.............person to be watched for possible reasons of concern.

Simple and rather incomplete...........but, in a nutshell, the basic difference. It's not really so hard to understand. Can't figure why you want such specifics........unless you want to run to your wikki again to "disprove" me.

Oh yeah, the wikki is a work in progress.......dictionaries are works done.

There's another one to argue over.................LOL.

LOL

Who do you think Random House hires to do this sort of work?

Are the ways of Academia that arcane to those in Rio Linda?

I for one would hate to get spammed with 'such and such walked around with giant penis in my club had to eject him' and then 'such and such just shot a customer with a watermelon' etc. Over and over... I mean how can one keep track of that... The more clubs join the more spam you'd end up getting. SL is such a large and random place it seems to me unlikely that you'd be able to act upon one of the many watch warnings that you end up getting. And I'm sure the furry club owner would love to keep hearing the Gorean club owner posting warnings about all the furries visiting his club. Perhaps I'm wrong and there are maybe so very few griefers that you can easily remember them for one night.

No, I'm just looking at the definitions you yourself posted and wondering why you haven't read them. let me quote you your first definition of a blacklist again:

1. a list of persons under suspicion, disfavor, censure, etc.

nothing about being convicted (in fact there is nothing about being convicted in your definition. So I guess you just made that one up, in spite of your insistence that we use the dictionary definition.

otoh, to me, "person under suspicion" and "person to be watched for possible reasons of concern" are pretty much synonymous. So, by your own evidence they are the same.

i can't speak for others but where i semi dj, the owner does it for the love of music. and it was thru him that i learned many different musical genres (besides what passes as music in SL clubs these days), as well as having my passion for swing, and jazz reignited. no, you dont make money running a club, but you can meet a lot of good people, and share a lot of excellent music.

1. understandable, i have done this as well
2. was the event billed as an all patrons must participate? what kind of game?
3.hmm strange...how so?
4.nods i found sploder junkies to be a pain, as they take money away from patrons who not only particiapted in the placing of money into the sploder, but actually stayed and supported the club. on this you don't get my sympathy.
5.see 4
6. am curious to know why the manager im'd you...
7. was it hindering the enjoyment of the club for anyone else? wa it the dance foo? were you warned before being kicked?

in a perfect world, everyoen would love one another and we'd live in perfect harmony, but this is not a perfect world, not is it a perfect virtual world. i think the OP's idea is a good one, to a point, as it does have a chance for some exploitation. there will always be those who will want to explain "thier side" of the story as to why their megaton nuke "accidently" went off in a club or sim.

I have to agree, love of music and seeing people having a good time. It was definitely not a money making business (an another venue owner told me she considered it an expensive hobby). I used to have a blues club with occasional live events, and the only income was from tips the folks who came gave. On the other side, the tier, the stream, and the live acts were a steady "sink" as the SL blog put it. But is was worth it to meet some great people and see folks having a good time (plus the compliments that the music streams were so much better than what they heard elsewhere).

So, though I no longer own a club, let me just say, don't forget to tip the club.

Gomez hun, you can say its not a blacklist til you are blue in the face. thier are those who are determined to see it as they see fit. i think its a good idea having a heads up from other club owners about potential troublemakers.

i can see it being done in this way: "Heads up, avatar123 was just at my club and he caged a patron, after he was warned, he chilled then left."

if two or more clubs report this as a norm for that particular avatar then yes a ban should be placed on them. and please, not all club owners are "follow the leader" types. many do practice common sense in judging who to ban and who to just let know what is acceptable behavoir in thier places of business.

I guess was a weird club owner, I always figured how someone acted in another club was irrelevant, I only cared how they acted in mine. A griefer in your own club when you are there is at worst a minor annoyance, I never had one that it took more than a minute to deal with, usually less than that (how long does it take to eject/ban, lol) I never had time to compare the name of everyone who came in to a list of anything. (heck, when things really got hopping I seldom even knew who came in). otoh, someone griefing was pretty easy to spot.

true, when busy you have very little time to see who is doin what to whom on what level, especially if you have your nose buried in SAM( or what ever dj system you use). but, if thereis an avatar targeting clubs with a lot of people just to grief or be disruptive, then on some level, shouldn't that avatar be watched for future reference?

if we were talking about places of business, this would be a whole different thread. but since its a club thing, its not taken seriously.

actually I would feel the same way if it was stores, parks, etc.

I am opposed to all Black Lists, for whatever reason.

As a former club owner I do and did take it seriously, I've not seen where I haven't. otoh, I was never gonna blacklist someone just because someone else said they did something (as Peggy has so helpfully pointed out, making a list of suspicious persons is a blacklist).

As pointed out before, its a lot easier to spot a griefer griefing than watch everyone coming in and comparing their name against a list. Do you seriously think most club owners, many of whom are usually in IM hell, is going to check every person who comes in against a list? I'm guessing if a griefer comes in they'll be spotted griefing before the owner even checks that list. And that assumes the club owner or someone with the list is on duty...

And as I said before, I don't really care what some other club owner says the person did in their club, I'm only concerned about what they did in mine. Any griefing I saw was either so obvious that it didn't matter if you were watching them, or so subtle (e.g. via IMs) that you wouldn't see even if you were watching them and would only know when the victim imed you. So such a list is pretty useless as far as watching is concerned.

thats just it it

its not a black list
its a watchlist

blacklist-noun- A list of persons or organizations that have incurred disapproval or suspicion or are to be boycotted or otherwise penalized.

watchlist –noun- a list of persons or things to watch for possible action in the future.

the OP is calling for the latter, not the former. your refusal to see the difference is argumentative and not productive to this thread.

nods i see your point, but i would rather have notice regarding avatar123 being a nuisance in club xyz than to have them enter the club and crash the sim or harass customers. and if the owner is too busy, then their staff are supposed to be the owners eyes and ears. if club owner A ims clubowner B,C,D,and E, regarding avatar123 disruptiveness in thier perspective clubs, then owners of that club should be able to tell thier hosts to look for that avatar. and watch them. treat them as you would a regular patron, with respect, but keep an eye on them. if they display the same behavior that thye did in previous clubs, then warn them, if it continues, ban. life is way to short to deal with another's lack of maturity. as for a list, yeah i agree no one will have time to look up every name on it to see if that particular avatar is on it, but i think the OP meant it on a day to day or event to event basis.

I guess that is my other point, life IS way too short to deal with another's lack of behavior. Why spend a lot of time watching a particular av or avs or even watching out for them? If someone starts griefing, deal with it, but why waste time following someone around who isn't griefing? I've got better things to do. If someone starts doing something, deal with it, but don't waste time worrying about things that haven't happened yet.

And given the number of clubs there are in SL, why even waste that short life taking down names of folks who will probably never even set foot in your club?

lol, this could end up being a tool for griefers. In Club 1, avatar A does something that gets it on the list, at club 2, A now has the staff watching him while B does something. Club 3, A or B or both are the distraction while C does something.

Before Dictionary round 2

Please tell me what members of the watch list do when they hear about a griefer via the group?

I dont buy this.

Yes, Ive run 2 clubs. I had to often unban people who didnt deserve banned.

I think they are far more likely to do what Conan said - and ban them for being suspected griefers and get on with the party.



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Best case:

Some group members will do nothing

Some will keep an eye out for suspect

Some will just pre-emptively ban.


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Worst case:

Most will just Pre-emptively Ban

Sooo,
It's NOT a Blacklist, it's just a list of people who are accused of being trouble makers in One Place, so their Names are circulated with the idea that they will be banned in Many Places,,,,,,,

But it's Not a Blacklist.

Thanks for Clearing that up.

Don't Mistake me, I've seen these systems in use among Tightly related sims. "Banned from one means banned from ALL", and among Tightly related sims, where the property owners know and trust one another It Works.
On a Grander "Subscription" scale however, Vetting the Validity of a proposed Ban breaks down, so Many times Innocent people Find themselves Black Listed for No Good reason.

Call it what you want, it's a Blacklist. It can either be a fair, and accurate one, Where those Adding to it are trustworthy, or it can be an out of Control one where any Knob can sign up, then start banning people left and right just because they Feel like being a Jerk.

Which one is THIS Blacklist?

Angel.

About four pages back I was going to jump on Peggy's side of the argument watchlist v. blacklist but a number of things stop me.
Colette's scenario of people banning outright for ease for one (credit also to Conan for that one)
The probable plethora of IMs that owners will be subjected to, diverting their attention (and enjoyment).
Finally, my personal experience of griefers number two in total so far. Firstly a hetero dance club I was in a while back and someone started very loudly berating someone else with anti-homosexual (forget the precise term except it's not homophobic) comments. They were ejected by the owner, and secondly, recently a relative noob griefed a shop with some kind of disruptive tool he was playing with. On score one, if loudmouth had not met the suspected homosexual the berating would never have occured. If he was black/watchlisted to all and sundry what should the reason be, having an opinion? Being intolerant? Being a grade A prat? Score two the noob probably would get fed up with being ejected by every owner of a shop he 'played with' and move onto more constructive and sociable practices, again unfair to deny him access to other places on the basis of something he probably stopped doing.

We've seen and heard of at least two posters here being blacklisted unfairly. And sorry, much as the initial proposal for a 'watchlist' sounds commendable, economy of time, expedience and/or laziness will reduce it to just another blacklist I fear .. and I'm with Colette here .. oh great! another blacklist.

Cos I want something cool I can offer SL and if people are too dumb to see a good thing then that's life.

(Not aimed at your post Colette sweetie! - I don't understand why people open clubs then don't do anything with them ... and on that note, to post my first event at the new place!!!)

As to this argument ... I'd only put banlink on people seriously griefing (yanno ... the sort that gets accounts nixed and good riddance). I have it there but not set up yet in the new place.