What can we non-EU players do to help our brothers and sisters in the EU ?

Exactly Denise. There is also a more fundamental reason that may put this to bed: If a business is making profit, then the net flow of cash for non americans is in the direction of US$->£/euro/etc. So, for those wishing to use a simple exchange rate argument, it actually argues for business outside of the states being worse off - non-american business owners get less of their own currency with each US$ profit they make.

It's of course not that simple, but for anyone who considers it to be, the weakening US$ does not favour non-american business in SL.

Not wishing to perpetuate any friction, may I point out which I think others have found offending remarks Ranma?

In one, you say people get the government they deserve. Whilst someone who is perhaps not completely at home with the English language, one might allow some lee way for translation and context and shrug this off. You however, sound fluent and in full control and therefore this comes across as an insult I'm sorry to say.

Also, you finished off a line with it being of no value to care. The OP posted because he does care. Many other posters here have showed they do too so again, your comment comes across as callous and thoughtless. I hope you understand this as constructive criticism Ranma and not an insult.

Lastly, on your comment about Caledon I agree utterly. It's a remarkable place and anyone boycotting it on the basis of perhaps a misinterpreted comment from one of its residents would be a great tragedy.
Regards, Bilbo

Actually I disagree with you on this one. EU Members have been recieving more Lindens and actually paying less tier and other fees than their American and Japanese counterparts.
I took a quick look at EU standard of living and it seems to be on a rise as well. Lets look at it this way, Ranma pays Linden Labs $195 in tier for her sim in 2005 and is still paying Linden Labs $195 for the sim. Hans paid 162.5 Euros in 2005 for his sim and is currently paying 135.41 Euros for the sam sim. VAT will increase this to 157.08 Euros. This is still less than in 2005.
I do understand your point however. You are going to have to pay a tax of 16 soon to be 19 percent in VAT and that includes buying and selling of Lindens. You are going to have and collect 19 percent more in Lindens. You will also have to pay 19 percent more in tier and fees, OUCH! A double tax increase! My figures do not take this in account. This will make it a over 20 percent increase for the EU Landlord. The EU Customer will have to pay more for the same amount of Lindens.
My figures did not take in account the true horror of the VAT.

That's only an argument for Hans paying less in his own currency than he once did, it's NOT an argument for Hans paying less in *real* terms now than he once did, nor is it an argument that Hans pays less than Ranma in *real* terms, period. You simply can't make an economic argument based solely on currency exchange rates.

Hans is paying $195 for his sim, the same as Ranma is. It's quite simple really. We pay dollars. Hans also has to pay a foreign currency transaction charge unless he's got the money in his US dollar balance, and if he has got the money in his US Dollar balance he has that money in US dollars, the same as Ranma.

Perhaps but my figures work well for Hans the consumer but not for Hans the Landlord. I did a quick check and Hans is earning about the same and spending about the same. The rate of inflation seems under control at 4 percent.
The flaw in my argument is the double tax paid to the EU. Once to pay for tier and again to cash out Lindens to pay tier.
Of course you can never tell when the United States might start collecting sales taxes on the Internet. It has started with some purchases such as online shopping. The American states might notice the EU VAT and think is good ideal to do the same!

Ranma .....

Allthough i appreciate what your saying...... I think you REALLLLLLLLY need to take a look at cost of living and inflation. To buy a house in the UK you pretty much got to be earning a MINIMUM £30kpa and mortgage it either 6 times current salary or extend the term to 35 years plus.
Our Petrol is nearly 4 times the cost of that in the US, our local taxes average between £1500 - £2500 pa. We pay significant money on National Insurance and our salary taxation is also significant.
If you look at what the most expensive countries to live in, I have no doubt that Japan is the top however Salaries would reflect this cost of living in order to avoid poverty and destitution, as would the fact that US salaraies MORE than make up the 3 points difference between itself and the UK on the economic scale of world most expensive countries to live in.

Your economics are based on the conversion and current weak state of the dollar, and according to the recent news feeds the USA is having difficulty with over stretched mortgages and people living way beyond thier means (see northern building society - UK).

The fact of the matter is the OP wanted to offer some kind of solidarity OR was advertising indirectly that he would offer his parcels dirt cheap so come to him rather than going to some expensive euro baron.
VAT is a national tax BUT was brought in to equal the playing field, however the playing is not and proberly never will not be equal. the UK has never really wanted to be part of the EUROCRAT system, we dont have EURO's and the weights and measures system to FORCE people to use Litres rather than pints has recently been abandoned. We didnt vote the European parliment in........ it is created from representitives from each country in the european union.

If we look at Brazil for example ..... some would say that Brazil has a poor economic system ... yet they are one of the largest groups in SL, America which has a larger $ psqm than pretty much anywhere else isnt.


Statistically the Europeans have a large presence in the second life community and like bilbo said earlier I appreciate that many can not and SHOULD not do anything about our situation ..... there is little but antagonism in rubbing peoples noses in it. Just becasue this issue hasnt effected others yet ..... doesnt mean it wont

P.S .... I didnt just pull this information out my ass....

http://www.aneki.com/income_countries.html

http://www.aneki.com/income_countries.html

http://www.aneki.com/largest_economies.html

http://www.aneki.com/workers.html

http://www.aneki.com/richest.html

Go look for yourself........ Japan and the USA are pretty much the richest people, with more money per person ... more people currently in work (reflects on taxes to support the unemployed), the Highest GDP (theres $13,000 average GDP per person between the UK and USA) ........ so on and so on ..... so please dont tell me how we in Europe are better off

Thanks to the OP for a nice idea. I'm in the UK and its not the paying of the VAT most of us Europeans are complaining about, so much as how LL introduced it and added it to our bill without so much as a blog. And the e-mail arrived after the VAT was added. Great communication, not, as usual from LL.

PS I bet Ranma has a heart but it must be hidden so deep she can't reach it.

I had my notice .... I paid my tier today, it didnt include VAT so I class myself as having more than enough notice now. but of course would that have happened if we hadnt have caused a stink

Lucky you! Still waiting for any news on my (fully charged) VAT ... I have a support ticked pending asking for a credit which nobody deigned to touch so far.

For all the times Americans are accused of acting like there is no world outside our borders ...

We simply CANT adjust everyone's prices based on Cost OR standard of living.

The EU and The US are hardly the only two places in the world. There are a lot of other countries to whom the price of SL is much higher relative to the Incomes of people in either country.

How fair is it to say that EVERY player should help cover the VAT of the Europeans because of their cost of living, when that means someone in a lower income country who already pays a much higher percentage of their income would have to help subsidize them?

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After we get done scaling the prices for the country of origin - Whats next? Income Verification?

If you are unemployed your tier on a private island is only $10/month?

Shit. We have 110 less nuclear warheads than France.

http://www.aneki.com/nuclear.html

This will not end well!
Where are the disposable income statistics?

Also, wasn't it you who said you walked past Linden Lab's Brighton HQ? I might be mistaken, but if I'm not, pls, tell me the address. =P

I think most of the arguments made about cost of living in the EU are only to counter arguments made by some that EU residents pay less because of the weakening US$, and that VAT somehow levels the playing field.

I agree with what you have stated Colette, the 'cost' of SL differs not only from nation to nation, but from one region to another within nations. I was only stating that making comparisons based solely on exchange rate is a little naive.

There is no obvious way to address the VAT situation, it's just one of those nasty consequences of doing business within an economy that financial/tax laws are not up to speed with. There are no real winners as a result of the way this affects business in SL, and I'm sure the L$ based economy will raise many more rl issues in the future.

I had no ideal things were so tough in Europe! However tell me as a American Citizen and Japanese Resident what constructive steps I can take to help? Home prices are expensive in Japan as well, a small house in the outskirts of Tokyo costs 30000000 yen and a home in Okinawa is not that much cheaper. We would be in real trouble if it was not for the home my husband recieved from his parents. I have a certain amount of money but have become ill recently. House prices are sky high in certain parts of America. Rather cheap in the countryside however but who would want to live there? My husbands parents want him to divorce me since I am hafu and unworthy.
Am still tired from the effect the war in Iraq has had apon me. I am paying dearly for having voted for the George W twice. I will never vote for a Republician again!
Again what can the rest of us do to help?

I don't think anyone expects you to help them Ranma, you just managed to ruffle a few feathers as a result of the attitude with which you entered the thread. I do agree with you that you should not be held in any part liable for VAT on europeans, but there is a place to make such a statement, and a thread which started as a good (albeit impractical) gesture, is probably not the best place for it.

It's not fair at all, but I don't think the issue is really about expense to Europeans. If everybody's costs increased by 17.5%, sure there'd be uproar, but you wouldn't have customers from one geographical region downgrading or dropping out of the game. Fact is: international economics don't enter this argument for the majority of affected Europeans at all. It's as simple as this: They no longer *perceive* themselves on a level playing field, and given the disadvantage they see themselves at, they no longer feel it's worth competing. So they downgrade or go.

The crux of this issue shouldn't be about Europeans requesting handouts and what not, but what will happen to the game in the long run if people who *feel* disadvantaged are no longer prepared to compete or play. Linden Lab *may* be forced to implement a new pricing model simply to make the playing field *appear* level again, therefore stimulating European involvement again. Whether this would involve a subsidy based pricing model, I have no idea. There are other ways.

I'm not sure the "why should I subsidise you?" questions are particularly relevant really. Questions like "will the game still be here in two years if I don't?" are perhaps the most crucial. Which is most important to you?

I wasn't really referring directly or disagreeing with your comments - since this isn't even the first thread the cost of living/ low exchange rates debate showed up on.

I'm sure you made good points about costs of living.

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Exchange rates shouldn't matter either.

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The way I see it -

LL is going to charge what it sees as a market competitive price, and will tack on any taxes, Sales or VAT that its required to. Thats the only "fair" way. (Fair to LL and residents in other countries who aren't taxing SL)

I agree ..... its nobodies fault ... nor is there anything that can be done. Its an unfortunate event but does go to show that the "big players" in SL arnt really that big at all and everyone is working within VERY narrow margins unless of course you are one of these who makes $1500 a month profit and advertises in the classifieds as in the L$1000's.

Its a tough time, yes .... should everyone bare the responsibility of european taxation definately not. BUT ... the taxation is not right becasue it taxes on destination NOT source so its a consumer tax on a service that has no real product or end result.

Its not that much of an amount and is affordable to a degree depending on the scale at which a person operates... I know im at a loss now... with sales down I may need to put up prices of my items to match those of my peers but Ive always been in the thing for fun ... just fun has gotten a bit more expensive.

Ohhhh well ..... back to earning RL money to pay for my Virtual life *lol*

ultimately though .... its the residents who choose what they can afford ..VAT or no VAT... and even then ... .Land renters etc will be hit harder than stores depending in wether the store needs the sales to pay for the tier

Wonder how much of our UK taxes have gone towards that war too, along with loss of life mainly from friendly fire


Sorry, couldn't resist considering the number of times you have stated you get nothing from EU countries.

I didn't suppose you were referring to my posts specifically, I was just commenting that I believe that the subject of cost of living has only entered the issue as a result of the misguided idea that VAT levels the field that was supposedly unevened by a weakening US$.



I totally agree.

You also have to consider the POV of players like me. I'm not in any sort of business, I'm not competing with anyone, I don't need a level playing field(This is for arguments sake mostly, I understand the actual situation). SL is a service I'm subscribing to, for entertainment purposes. Whatever LL decides to charge me for that service, is up to them to decide. If it's agreeable I'll pay it. If not I won't. What someone in another State pays or another country even is not my concern. Just as in the case of Cable TV or Internet service, what someone else pays for their service is their concern. A bit selfish perhaps. But it is a factor in all this.

Excluding cheap shots like that of course.......

The sense of locality evoked by virtual environments comes into play here. I couldn't give two hoots what somebody on the other side of the Atlantic (or Europe for that matter) pays for their cable bill. When they're my next door neighbour in SL though - who I "see" everyday - that changes things a bit, and I become hyper aware of the cost imbalance.