Can we get some clarification here?

hrug:

I'm one of those intuitive types that probably annoys the snot out of you, then. I didn't make a great leap in logic. I made an inferance based on past experience. And honestly, you made an assumption, too, when you said you chose to believe they left angrily rather than being banned. So, w/e.

You're onto something here.

And to clarify, I'm not saying "PG isn't PG", I'm saying PG isn't a good choice of terminology. I don't need any parental guidance in conducting my Second Life. I'm a grown man. I'm also mature, and I'm not into any of the things being debated here, so "Mature" is another poor choice. Let's call it what it is: Explicit.

Content, communication or behavior which contains:

1. Explicit Language
   
2. Explicit sexual situations and/or nudity
   
3. Explicit violence outside of designated combat areas
   
4. Explicit roleplay of a sexual, violent, or racially charged nature
   

Or whatever. Let's just not beat around the bush and use words like "adult" or "mature" or "PG". These are all ambiguous. "explicit" is not.

well thats all nice - but why change the language since its already clear enough.

The system is already more than sufficient , just not enforced.

PG is the terminaology we have, so lets enforce it.

I should be able to - providing I have my mature button off - never see one remotely adult content item anywhere in second life as long as I stay on PG land and use the search features.

No one, anywhere, should be having teh sex as far as I would know.

When I click the mature buttons - Nothing should change
- until such time they fix the searches -
allowing mature content to again be allowed on land descriptions and classifed ads ONLY.

Yep this is the system we need. When do we invite the teens to join the main grid?

As long as they are only allowed on PG land .. I mean why not?

I have to say, as someone who is still very new to SL, its very interesting how in depth things can get. Rather refreshing actually

Anyway, I have dabbled in escorting to, basically, grab some easy lindens and I always make sure that my "escort" tag is only used in areas where I would consider them acceptable (red light areas as it were). I make no mention of my escorting or my rates in my profile simply because I do not always want to interact with everyone I meet in that capacity. I'm not trying to hide the fact, I just want people to meet Gillian Vuckovic rather than a prostitute and the attendant connotations. Hey, I'm here to make friends and have fun first and foremost. I do have a card to hand out but only do that to those who approach me and only after I have asked if they would like me to give it to them first. I would think it was innapropriate to wander around "advertising my wares" somewhere where those around me would not expect me, likewise, I could care less if it upset someone if I was in one of the areas where people congregate for that purpose. Its when these boundaries cross that the problems arise and I think people just need to be more aware that these boundaries exist and respect them.

Longwinded I know but I guess what I'm saying is that I aim to behave in a respectful manner and would expect others to do the same. Sadly, I think that the people that really need to hear what is said here by you all are unlikely to visit these forums. Y'know, the wardrobe challenged peeps that treat SL like an orgy at a nudist camp...

I think that there is a broad interpretation of what is approiate here, and given that we are dealing with many differant cultures world wide, there is a need for LL to spell out exactly what is and isn't permissable.

I lived in Germany some years back, and maybe someone here that currently lives there can correct me if things have changed, but at the time..

Magazines, frequently showed nude women, at least from the waist up on the front cover and were on open display, these wen't only girlie mags, but other publications as well.

TV commercials... if it was an ad for something like shampoo, the lady was shown in the shower without her hands and arms strategically placed over her breasts.

Public Swimming Pools, a good percentage were tops optional for females, now the first time I took my kids to one... It was a ohhh..look thing for about 10 mins, then quickly forgetten and I don't think they paid any further attention.

That is just a few examples, so before you get on a high horse and imply that everyone knows what is acceptable, and what is not by appling "your" community standards, I can certainly see a german girl postings a topless picture in her profile, or only wearing a bottom at a SL water park, and have no idea she is offending the stuffy Americans. (yes I am from the US)

That is just one culture other than the US's that I just happen to be aware of, so I imagine there are many more examples out there like this.

So yes...things do need to be explictly spelled out as far as what is not acceptable behaviour.

Actually they have. They sent out note cards about it. >.> And there was also a meeting about it... Please pay attention. So far it only involves ageplay, but soon enough it will involve the rest. The note card has been widely spread throughout SL so I'm sure you read it by now...

And everyone needs to take sundays off to worship god, and we all have to wear black, and churn butter. And no hoop Skirts! >.>

This is of course an excellent point. However you must be wrong.

Everyone in the world is very familair with what constitutes the US idea of "PG"

NM the fact that even PG has changed in the 30 years since they came up with it for movies.

Darn right!

Hitchin' up the buggy, churnin' lots of butter
Raised a barn on Monday, soon I'll raise anoder
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art

I had no idea what PG was until someone online explained it to me, nor does it really compare with anything that exists here. Stereotypically the US has no issues with depicting violence, but sexuality is a big no-no, where in Europe it'll be the exact opposite.

I'm wondering if I'm the only one that noticed "We plan to add a more granular parcel-level mature identifier in the near future to further distinguish mature content from content merely residing in mature regions." on the blog as well .

Actually I hadnt known that. about the different vesions.

I of course agree the PG standard is not clear at all.

I was tired of my arguement being ignored so I joined the other side. Seems some agree more readily when I say inane things.

You misunderstand me. I'm talking about there being no change in policy with regard to "adult/PG" related activities in general. They haven't banned it. They are enforcing existing containment rules. Even ageplay isn't banned. Your statements suggest that a grid wide ban on these activities is imminent. It isn't.

From the transcript of the meeting:

Robin Linden: We've asked SL business and land-owners to refrain from promoting sexual activities involving children

Robin Linden: Please keep in mind that what we have asked is that people do not PROMOTE this behavior (Emphasis Robin's)

Robin Linden: we've also said that anyone who presents themselves as being under 18 will be removed from SL until we have been able to verify their age


Robin Linden: This isn't about homosexuality or furries. It's about Linden Lab's responsibility to safely separate minors from the adult content found in Second Life.

Robin Linden: Therefore, we have chosed not to allow the "advertising or promotion" of age play or related activities in any public forum

Robin Linden: in-world textures (i.e. pictures), classified ads, the SL forums, and parcel descriptions. This would also include profiles.

Arokha Sieyes: My question, worded as 'good' as possible, is that if two adults, of verified age, wish to participate in ageplay, in private land, and not 'promote' it to others, can they do so without interference from LL?

Robin Linden: Arokha, under those circumstances LL would not intervene.

For those following along at home, the parts in red - would be changes.

Before age play wasnt any more restricted than any other adult activity. And could be promoted in Mature parcel descriptions, Mature events and Mature classified ads.

Also textures of ageplay activity were allowed.

Age players were also allowed to give a bellow 18 age in their 2nd life part of their profiel and say they were into sexual age play.

So, Zaphod your point as far as nothing changed for ageplayers really, basically invalid.

Now I actually agree with the sexual ageplay restrictions, but I dont make stuff up to win arguments.

For those NOT following along at home, please have another look at my statement. I'll quote it just now:

"I'm talking about there being no change in policy with regard to "adult/PG" related activities in general. They haven't banned it. They are enforcing existing containment rules. Even ageplay isn't banned. Your statements suggest that a grid wide ban on these activities is imminent. It isn't."

In bringing up the ageplay thing, I was merely pointing out that they haven't even banned that. My point was never to imply or suggest that "nothing has changed for ageplayers." Who's making stuff up here?

Zaph, why does it bother you so much that some people want more clarification? You act like you're threatened by it or something.

LL is presumably taking action to protect themselves and the product from legal action. There are several countries that have or are enacting legislation (the EU among them) which not only obviously prohibit child pornography per se, but any activity WHICH COULD BE DEEMED TO BE PROMOTING sexual activity with minors and child pornography and this includes the promotion of VIRTUAL CHILD SEX, and pornographic material containing individuals who claim to be or are claimed to be below the legal age of consent. It's a no brainer to anyone not afflicted with that particular psychiatric condition.

It doesn't bother me at all. It perplexes me. Threatened by it? Why in the world would I feel threatened by it? I would agree that perhaps the CS could use a little more .. something .. But as it stands today, I believe it is sufficient.

What perplexes me is that some folks seem to want each and every thing spelled out for them. I would read a document like the current Community Standards, put two and two together, and err on the side of caution. (can't put explicit stuff in my avatar name, group name/info, land description, etc, Hrmm.. I guess my profile is similarly public facing, probably shouldn't put it there either, even though that's not specified in CS/Section 5)

I think one of the problems in this thread is that there are several micro conversations going on, and maybe we're having trouble keeping them all synchronized.

The way I understand Zap is that he's stating that no real "rule" change has taken place in the TOS............only in the enforcement of it. I happen to agree on that point. The document is not that difficult to read and understand and I think it is clear enough as it is. The problem has been that for a very long time there has been little or no enforcement of almost any "rule" in the TOS. I don't see a need for a clarification either...........however a very public and stern statement from LL should be put out about any change in the enforcement of the TOS. I'll let Zap confirm or deny but I get the idea he would like that "cleared up" too..............but that's not a clarification of the TOS pretaining to anything written in that document.

Unfortunately in today's I'm not responsible for my actions society, spoon feeding is becoming a necessity. From Drug Company disclaimers that say "Birth Control Pills should not be taken by women wishing to become pregnant" to fast food wrappers that say "Place sandwich here" on them common sense and individual initiative are becoming scarce.

And McDonald's disclaimer on their cups of coffee.........."Caution, hot liquid".

It's a no brainer that we weren't discussing the age play issue here. Not directly.

Common sense flies out the window with the standard changes, though. I'm not saying the rules changed, but the standard. The standard before was rather anything goes. Now, it's different. But unless I can get a clear description of how it's different, how can I know if I am compliant?

No...I think it definatly needs to be clarified. I'm not talking spoon feeding to idiots, but when even as simple a statement like no nudity in a public area in a PG sim could possibly lead to some confusion, it does need to be spelled out.

Now, am I wrong in assuming, that if a lady was say in Omaha Nebraska, and went to a public beach/swimming pool, and decided to sun bath topless, she would be in violation legaly of public indecency/nudity. Pretty cut n dry.

But, take the same lady, assume she grew up in Wiesbaden Germany, is used to going to the local beach, where it is not a violation, ethier leagaly or morally to sun bath topless, which she has possibly done all her RL, and decides to hang out on a local SL beach topless. Is she now in violation of the no nudity in PG sims? Exactly who's community standards are we applying?

That is why LL needs to spell everything out, so we know what is LL's standard of what is acceptable. Now I know why they won't, as long as they keep the TOS vauge, they can claim that any problem that possibly arises was always against the TOS, and so it isn't thier fault if negative plublicity or other problems arise.

No standards have changed. They're just back around to enforcing the standards that have always been spelled out in the CS. How can you know that you're compliant? Read the CS. Measure your decisions against that, and err on the side of caution when in doubt. This isn't all that difficult. You're making it difficult because you want to push the envelope, and keep yourself somewhere on the edge. The system wasn't designed for that. If you need hand holding in this area, you're not going to get it.

"Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or violence, or anything else broadly offensive must be contained within private land in areas rated Mature (M)."

Please tell me how it's not spelled out right there.


Second Life is neither Germany nor Nebraska. The community standards we are applying are Linden Lab's community standards. They can be found here, in case you've never seen them.


Don't confuse the Terms of Service document with the Community Standards document. The ToS is a legal document, an agreement between you and Linden Lab. You agree to these terms when you proceed to use the service. The Community Standards is a separate document, which most of this discussion is centered around.

In neither document is it at all possible to address or lay down the law on each and every issue that might arise. That's why certain things are vague. Linden Lab must have that advantage, to protect themselves.

This Second Life society is not a free one. We have no bill of rights, we have no freedom of speech. We have what Linden Lab says we have. If there's any doubt about it, we don't have it, unless one of the two governing documents explicitly says we do. Is this really such an impossible concept to grasp?