Can we get some clarification here?

You truly believe that? Seriously? You honestly believe that there is enough equality in the world, in the U.S. that white folks and minorities have an equal chance?
In addition, factor in the past influences that were forced on minorities that shaped their culture and tell me that there's no racism involved.
Ridiculous.

I was curious to that as well.

I'm sorry, but this is just not true. The French are not Anglo-Saxon. The Spanish aren't. Italian's aren't. Anglo-Saxon is a pretty specific group, descended from the Saxons that lived in Great Britain and the Angles, a Germanic people who invaded in around the 5th Century. In the 11th century, they were invaded by the Normans, who were French, and certainly not Anglo-Saxon. Italians are certainly NOT Anglo-Saxon. Remember the whole "Roman Empire" thing? Yeah... Greeks, too. I dare you to tell a Greek guy that he's an Anglo-Saxon. Hell, tell an Irishman or a Welshman that they're Anglo-Saxon! See where that gets you! (The Irish and Welsh are the Celts and Britons.)

Within the white "Race", you have Germanic, Celtic, Frankish, Norman, Greek, Roman... hell, there's a grajillion (my new word) different subsects, and only one of them is Anglo-Saxon, so your history lesson, unfortunately, is completely and utterly incorrect.

As for White Privilege, you are, unfortunately wrong again. It didn't "just happen". It was a coordinated effort that became the status quo.
Picture a doctor in your head. Just a kids picture. He's white, isn't he? Don't lie, it's ok.
I wish I had a link to that study. Somewhere around 99% of people, regardless of race, class or religion, when told to picture a doctor, a lawyer, a professional, when asked what colour he is (if they're being honest) will (most times sheepishly) say white. It's just the way we were brought up. It's in us. It's part of us, almost an innate way of being.
What many, if not most, of the "Black" groups that are being railed against on this thread are trying to do is make that very point, as well as point out the unfairness of it and the frustration they feel at that unfairness.

Wishing that racial problems will go away, refusing to talk about them, decrying people or groups without trying to listen or understand where they're coming from will not help us. Any of us.

It doesn't have to be this way.

Even Jesus is portrayed as blond haired and blue eyed in many cases. I don't think there were many Aryian types goosetepping arounf Gallilee 2000 years ago.

I'm not quite sure how to respond to this.

I used examples, pointed to links... I've provided proof of the theory.

You? You've made a statement. No back up, no reference, no... well, no nothing.

Care to back up the statement, or are you just gonna stand by whatever misguided opinion you have?

The only part of your post that was even remotely correct was the apology...

I agree.



But surely the issue should read - should racial groups espousing any type of racial supremacy be allowed to still exist, while the TOS/CS seems to forbid them.

To clarify the worms/words matter, when I checked, the 14 words group appeared empty, apart from the founder. Clicking on his profile, showed a list of other groups, one of which is the 14 worms. This had the exact same symbol, group charter, titles, as the 14 words group but also had a list of members.

/sarcasm on

Ok, I concede. Your wikipedia cite and waffle house example are irrefutable.

/sarcasm off

Only a few days ago 14 words was full of members. Many were also members of that controversal right wing french political group.

BADLY wrong. I'm white. I pictured your doctor. He's Indian. (I'm from the UK)

Edit: I note however that "HE" is a "HE"...I suppose that makes me sexist and will support a case for "male privilege".

Edit: I note however that "HE" is a "HE". I suppose that makes me sexist and will support a claim for "male privilege".

Ah, good, you admit that the 'White Race' is made up of _lots_ of races.

Actually, the last two doctors I've seen were of a) 'Hispanic' origin, and the other was b) of rather mixed indeterminate origin and a woman, though I call them 'American', thanks.

And for the record, I don't mind if 'groups of other than whites' want to work against the 'White Privilege' that was built by the 'conspiracy of the countries in question being founded by white people and governed by them since their founding, only _recently_ even giving other races the ability to vote and such within this last century', what I mind is when they tell those of us who happen to be one of the _NUMEROUS_ white _RACES_(plural), or a mix of several, that _WE_ owe them because of what our ancestors did to their ancestors.

I _ALSO_ mind the constant use of racial slurs that other 'non-white' races are allowed to levy against 'white' people.

Oh, and to help substantiate my claim of growing anti-white racism in Georgia
http://www.adversity.net/c8_tbd.htm (fulton county is right outside of Atlanta)

Don't want to believe them, search a little online with google.

Now, I'm old, and I'm bitter, and this whole thing about race is just making me more so. How about we go on and go back to the whole censorship and clarification and crap issue?

Humm, I believe you ment to use the word 'site' as in 'web site', rather than 'cite', which is properly used as quoting a passage or a document. As I pointed to a site, rather than citing anything from it, that would be the proper word to use.

As for the 'waffle house' example, I can ask my friends to come online and give testimony, if you like. Two of them also have SL accounts.

Oh, and so as not to post the same example twice, see my previous post for an example of court-identified anit-white racism that's gone on in the Atlanta area _NOT_ supplied by Wikipedia. Thanks.

Again, my problems arn't with the color of the skin of the people, it's with their _actions_.

Ok, look, as tempting as you are making it, I'm not going to engage you on the waffle house thing, not even if your friends are willing to 'testify' because it's just silly to try to refute everyone from Winthrop Jordan to Malcolm X by talking about what you and a couple friends think.

And before you get too carried away with sniggling me on cite vs site, you may want to actually read the wiki article you cite ("cite" verb: to mention in support, proof, or confirmation; refer to as an example: He cited many instances of abuse of power. ) because I think you may be surprised to discover that it agrees with me. But my opinion is irrelevant. What matters is that it agrees with essentially everyone with any credibility who has written on the subject of racism. Racial prejudice + power = racism.

No, I don't admit that. That's not what I'm saying at all. I was refuting your misinformation regarding Anglo-Saxons, which you didn't touch on at all in your response. I never said anything about there being different "races" within the caucasian race, nor would I because... well... yet again, you are incorrect. There are several GROUPS within the white race, but they aren't seperate races, just as the different groups in Africa aren't different races (saving the Khoisan and Pygmy, which ARE considered by many to be a different race.).

You then ignore my point regarding the doctor. I didn't ask you who you went to, I asked you to picture a doctor. If you can't see the difference, if you can't see the point I'm trying to make, or, and this I suspect is the case, you are disingenuously and pointedly ignoring my point, then I'm not sure how we can have a discussion.

A) you miss my point about 'races'. No one would call Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese the same race, though they are all 'Asians'. Go tell an Irishman that he's 'English' or 'British' because he comes from the British islands. Many so called 'black people', I hate refering to people by that, their skin color isn't black, for one..anyway, many 'black people' who are heavy into the 'race issues' focus on where their ancestors came from..tell a hatian he's a south african. They _ARE_ different races because they came from different cultures despite that they're the same genetically. I _WAS_ lying my butt off about the anglo-saxon thing, yes, just to see if anyone would catch it. Know how much racism there was between all the various 'white men' tribes that were out there ages ago? Romans vs Gauls comes to mind, or, rather, I guess, Romans vs everyone else, 'filthy barbarians' and all that. To say that every 'white man' is of the same race is as big a falacy as for anyone to say they all came from anglo-saxon descent. Try getting a Hebrew, a Italian, and a Scotsman together and tell them they're the same race. Dare ya.

Heck, if you count _culture_ as a major part of 'race', then there's african 'blacks', haitian 'blacks', english 'blacks', american 'blacks', and canadian 'blacks', just for starters, then you have american 'english', england 'english', canadian 'english', american italian, italian italian, canadian italian, england italian..

B) My other point, really, 'doctor' brings to mind every doctor I've had. I can not immagine a doctor without remembering every one that I can remember, from medical doctor, to dentist, to surgeon. Dental surgery, really, I haven't ever had anything else wrong with me, physically, to require any other surgery, including apendicitis.

How many doctors have _you_ had that wern't white? If 'whites' are really the majority in the area you live in, then, by the law of averages, most of anyone doing anything in your area is filled by a 'white man'.

Maybe I'm just weird. Maybe I'm not really human, mentally. Whatever, I just don't give a holy d*mn about skin color and race. Life is too short to bother with s*it like that. Yes, society sucks, I'll give you that. Yes, the people saying there are differences in races are stupid.

Human is human. It's the _cultures and their viewpoints_ that need to change. That's just my point of view, but it's a 'stupid one' that no one ever listens to.

Anyway, I'm out, I'm going to go play with my ferrets. If you want to continue this, IM me so we can stop bothering the other 'nice people' trying to post to get the Linden's attention for clarification on their rules and the others telling them they're silly because 'it's all already spelled out for you'.

PS One last addendum, if you listen to Evolution, we all came from the same place, anyway, if you don't and listen to religions, most of them state we all came from the same place, too, with a few notable exceptions. There _are_ no races, just minior differences in skin color, or hair, or nose structure.. Everybody give up the race crap! We're all the same _species_. Heck, the farthest apart, genetically, that we are is closer than some breeds of domestic _CAT_.

One question; Do you believe that a black person or black group can be racist against 'white people'?

I think you are very sincere, and I do believe that you feel your heart is in the right place. I encourage you to seek out the work of people who have spent their lives researching and writing about racism. If you are not sure where to start, you may IM me in world and I would be happy to provide you with a bibliography. Otherwise, I wish you well.

Where I live, we have a trial going on over a 30-year-old murder case. The man, a member of a Black supremicist movement in the '60s, said that he was taught to hate white people, and that killing one was a task he was given.

Yes, they can be.

Sorry if that's the unpopular thing to say, but it seems ridiculous to pretend that any subgroup of the human race is impervious to the weakness the whole of humanity shares.

Lorelei,

Yes, of course minorities can have racist views, but racist views, by themselves, are not enough to cause the subjugation of a people. You need POWER too.

Please consider this equation one last time and note that it doesn't specify any skin color: Racial prejudice + Power = Racism

Do we need to put power into the equation? I'm UK and a couple of years back we had some major race riots in one of our northern cities. Are you saying that none of the non-whites hated the whites? A phrase comes to mind that is usually attributed to the opposite sentiment .. it takes two.

The doctor thing. An interesting phenomenon. I've been to and from our hospital a lot lately and note with no elation nor disapproval, that there is round the 50% split on white and non-white doctors. The nurses I'd say tip the balance to non-white. I know there's a specific reason for this so won't digress on that point.

Not happy with the power thing. It's not always quiet in UK and I know there are 'white supremists'. Just doubt the power bit.

I'm gonna get flamed .. I know

Racism or racialism is a form of discrimination based on race, especially the belief that one race is superior to another. Racism may be expressed individually and consciously, through explicit thoughts, feelings, or acts, or socially and unconsciously, through institutions that promote inequality between races.

Yes, power _can_ have something to do with it, but not _always_. A person who _unquestioningly hates_ a member of another race, whether he/she has met him/her or not, is a racist.

Just to be clear, discrimination is unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice.

And prejudice is an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

None of these _have_ to have power behind them. Granted, without the POWER to '_PUNISH THOSE WHO SHOULD BE_', racism is fairly useless.

And these are not 'just my opinions', they are definitions, and subjugation is not a requirement for any of them.

And one last note, I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm just presenting the facts. Nothing, this time, is falacy, in case anyone is missing that I have no 'smilies' or 'winkies' this time.

Feel free to voice your own beliefs and those opinions listed in those books you've stated, but I'll follow the accepted english definitions.

I even went and re-checked them, so I could use completely neutral and un-biased writing. I cut and pasted the definitions. No words in the definitions are mine. And none came from 'wikipedia', either, since you've already implied you think any facts that can be gleaned from there are suspect at best.

I just often use Wikipedia when dealing with online personages because it is written in easy to understand format, most of the time, and believe me, I've dealt with a number of people who absolutely need that, and no, I'm not implying that you are one of those people. Remind me to tell you about this boy I worked with, once, named Bubba, and yes, that really was his name.

For those that were using swastlikas and other Nazi iconography as examples; LL does not allow any Nazi imagery.

It is considered "Broadly Offensive".

Swastikas, pictures of Hitler, and Nazi uniforms have all been actively policed in the past, with "broadly offensive" being cited for the reasoning.

YES THEY WOULD! What part of that are you missing? Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Indian... They're all the same race, just as Irish, Italian, French are all the same race.



No... Just NO. You are wrong. Please, for god's sake, do some research and try to define what you are saying. You keep contradicting yourself. First you say that there are other races within races, then you say there isn't.
Culture is not race. Tribes are not race. Different peoples within the same race are not races.
You say "tell a hatian he's south african", which... doesn't make sense. That's like saying "Tell an American he's Australian" Hatian and South African are nationalities.
You don't compare nationality with race.
However, to extend your metaphor, and use it correctly, if you were to tell a black person from Haiti that he was Zulu or another of the Bantu peoples, he'd probably be ecstatic. (Although chances are that his people came from farther north than that. Southern Africa was more affected by Colonialism than the North American Slave Trade.)



Ok, THIS one pissed me off. Either you believe that misinformation and lies are the way to go forward, or you're lying now about lying.
I'm not sure which is worse, you consciously putting out that bullshit that you wrote about "the anglo-saxon thing" for whatever misguided reason, or you trying to cover up the bullshit when called on it.
What point would you have been trying to make by... well, just talking a huge pile of garbage?
"A Hebrew"? Good lord! Do you THINK about what you're writing?
First off, you're (surprise, surprise) wrong about them being of the same race. If by "Hebrew", you mean someone of the Jewish faith, well... you're comparing a religion to a nationality, which is... just weird. If you mean someone from the Middle East when you say "Hebrew", then.. no, they aren't White, either. They WOULDN'T be considered the same race.
However, I think that if you were sitting at the same table as an Messrs. Pescatore and MacDougal and told them both that they're white... I don't think there's gonna be a problem.


Which I'm not... That's just you mixing things up. Culture is culture, race is race.
Do you actually read up on this stuff, or just pull things out of the air?

(BYW, everyone else, I want it noted for the record that I said "out of the air" and not "out of your ass".)



My point was missed, I get it. Move along. You just aren't going to get it.



You're not stupid, just ignorant. Take the person upthread on his offer. If you're going to pontificate, you should really do it from a place of knowledge.

Your equation is wrong. Racial prejudice IS Racism, nothing added, nothing taken away. If you want to add Power to Racial prejudice then you get OPPRESSION. But oppression isn't necessarily racist, and racism doesn't necessarily require oppression. If I get called a "Honky Slaver" by a passing ethnic minority - I'm not OPPRESSED - but I AM racially abused...even though the individual who abused me has no power over me.

It's possible to be racially abused without being oppressed.
It's possible to be racist from a position of powerlessness.

The one reason that the white races will always be branded racist is that we are the only race in recent historical memory to have enslaved another. The stigma of that will last a long time, and in addition will be further perpetuated by groups with an ulterior motive. I don't accept that slavery is the sole cause for holding back the development of African Nations - I think the fact that they were so busy fighting amongst themselves was at least an equal if not greater contributing factor.

And why do I think the racist argument has gone too far? Follow this example...a famous football manager in England referred to a black football player as "A stupid idle black bastard". Why is it that the only word that was called into question here was the word "black"...which is the only word which can be proven to be factually correct?

I'm glad at least someone can admit it...Lilliput and Colette have been asked outright if they believe the same "censorship" rules should apply to extremist ethnic groups as they would apply to extremist white groups, and have both either sidestepped or entirely ignored the question.

Edit: I missed Lilliput's reply, I sincerely apologise. However...whilst Lilliput admits that minorities can hold racist views, he(?) then seems to dismiss it as unimportant because they cannot "subjugate a race" - don't you think it would be a good idea to crack down on those views JUST as hard as one would on a white supremacist, BEFORE they are in a position to subjugate a race...?

I would hope even Lilliput would admit that white supremacists are themselves a minority, and so ALSO do NOT have power and are NOT in a position to subjugate a race...or are you going to trot out the EXACT view that I am taking a stand against...i.e. "All white people are racist"?