An Experiment in Psychology - those who know me, and nudity

So many people are adverse to nudity in SL.

Wow.

My question is: Why was I not invited to any of these functions?

QFT. This.

It isn't whether it is right, or wrong, or even whether it violates TOS or CS or not. But whether there is a chance you'll get embroiled in some "zOMG AR It!!!" dramaz. *sigh*

I have never really seen much nudity at The Hangout. If for some reason I ended up nude there I would probably be a little weirded out just because it doesn't seem like an appropriate place for that in my opinion. Child avatars in general make me a little nervous too. So... given those two issues plus the potential for an AR I imagine I would probably cover up or leave. But the logical part of my head wants to say... "it's an adult behind the AV why would it matter?"



So completely not true.

I go nakie around kid AVs. (^_^)

I sometimes go nakie AS a kid AV. (^_^)

Nudity isn't sexual or lewd by default. (^_^)

The LL guidelines only address sex and lewd behaviour. In many contexts, nudity is perfectly PG... Just, not exactly Linden Lab's PG. (^_^)y

I've never been to the hangout, and now I'm even less inclined to want to go. The problem isn't with kid avs showing up, it's with the idea that nudity should even be considered acceptable there.

It's not that I have anything against nudity. I think it's fine, I think child and adult avs at a nude beach in SL, with no sex animations around, ought to be explicitly allowed, although history shows that LL has been inconsistent on the matter.

It's that a place labeled "Forum Hangout" and ostensibly intended to be a friendly, welcoming place for people new to SL to make friends should be inclusive at all times for all avs, which means a kid av ought to be able to go there 24x7 without worries, without having to change avs, and without feeling guilty about making others get dressed. If you a forum hangout-type area with nudity, make a Forum Nude Beach Hangout. But a Forum Hangout that permits nudity is as inappropriate as an NCI area or freebie area or Ivory Tower or Particle Laboratory or non-Zindra infohub permitting nudity.

Why?

No it isn't.

Not at all the same.

Why do you have a problem with pixelated nudity?

I'm not seeing anybody say that. I do see people saying that nudity isn't entirely compatible with their vision of the Hangout, or maybe just their own involvement with the Hangout.

I'm not sure why that should be surprising, really. Not that the Hangout is like a RL workplace, but still: some social conventions might reasonably apply. Those whose AVs are always nude must not be too surprised to encounter situations where that's at least unconventional--Linden office hours, for example. Any rule about what conventions apply to the Cartel Hangout must be pretty subjective, but it's far from obvious to me that it should be more like a nudist colony or titty bar than a live music venue or coffee house.

But I've never seen nudity at the Hangout--I guess I go at the wrong times--and it wouldn't bother me if I did, so I'm certainly not arguing for any kind of "dress code."

I've been nude at the Hangout on more than one occasion. So have others.

I don't think there should be nudity as a general theme either. It is being touted as a place welcoming all residents, especially new ones, an not everyone wnts to see nudity. There is nothing wrong with that. No one here is saying they are adverse to it, or wish to keep someone else from doing it. They are mostly saying either they aren't into it themselves or that it should be in appropriate places. I agree.If the Cartel as a group wanted to have a specific Nudity oriented event...not a bad idea..and announced it..then fine.

Mostly because it looks hilarious for streakings... Especially with my spazzy AO. (^_^)

That, and, the naturist resort I go to... Epic cute dance-offs. =^-^=

Nice responses! Firstly, although I did start the thread by asking only the opinions of people who knew me well, I think it's good that several people who don't really know me at all responded, because their responses provide a good baseline or "control set" by which to contrast the responses of those who have known me a while.

Also - I can assure you that if I unwittingly teleport into a collection of nude Carteliers, I would most certainly leave. I've always maintained that I will leave in any situation where my staying would make someone uncomfortable, or make them feel they have to change or alter what they're doing to accommodate my sudden presence.



This is it! It's primarily the attitude I want to explore, as I think it's fascinating, and is the reason I started the thread. I'll explain more below...



This is the most prudent course of action. I understand that a lot of people don't have problems with, or think there should be no problem with, avatar nudity vis-a-vis no-sexual situations with adults, kid avs, or whatever - but you pick your battles. If it helps, think of public opinion as a swarm of mosquitoes. No matter how much you like nudity, you don't strip down and frolic naked in a swarm of mosquitoes. Same thing.



Well yeah - but it's just that they're so friendly and fun to hang around for a while. Although I admit that I don't hang around for more than a few minutes, usually - because yeah, while they're always (so far) happy to see me and say hi, I don't wanna impose. No matter how much they say I'm not imposing.



Pics?



Hey! I am NOT dirty minded! Naked women are natural and beautiful, and any interest I have in them is completely pure and innocent!



Yeah, again, this is the attitude I was fascinated by. I was hanging around with some friends of my SL mother and the conversation took a "mature" turn. I mean it wasn't a lot of explicit stuff, but they were discussing sexual topics, and they joked that they perhaps should tone it down a bit because there was a "kid" present. I in turn jokingly offered to change into an adult av, and one of them quipped "Ha - your disguises would fool no one, kid!" It was good for a laugh, but there was something of a reality behind it. The same thing generally happens in Forum Cartel group chat. When people see my name in there, they immediately consider me to be a kid and act that way, even though there are no "avatars" in group chat. And if I announced in the chat that I was in an adult avatar at that particular moment, I have a feeling that for some people it wouldn't matter.

Why? Because they see me as a child - and, like Jig, they probably always will, unless I manage to spend more than the next two years in a completely different avatar. I'm interested in the psychology behind this, specifically as it relates to kid avatars. If someone has a dog for an avatar, and they suddenly decide to be a human for a while, I don't think people have the same hangups - but it's difficult to tell from a third-person perspective simply because no one feels "compelled" to censor their speech or behavior around dogs. But they do around kids - even when they know it's not a "real" kid. I find the fact that the compulsion carries over even when the avatar is no longer a "fake" kid either to be weird and interesting.

Without looking at the other answers, and keeping in mind that I only know you from your posts here and group IM chat in-world...

Hmmm... I just can't get past the mental block of picturing myself dancing naked at the Hangout...I'm pretty body-shy in SL. But, assuming I was:

If you came in as a kid avatar, I'd probably feel a bit uncomfortable and slip on some clothes, even though I *know* (or am convinced, anyway) that your typist is an adult.

If you changed to an adult or non-human avatar, I'd probably already be dressed by the time you changed and probably wouldn't undress again, the mood having been broken. (Which is not per se a bad thing - sometimes after you do something for a while, you're ready to do other stuff.)

You showing up as an adult av... there's a tricky one, since the Cody persona I am used to is that of a very intelligent kid. (Then again, there's a chance if you showed up as an adult avatar, I wouldn't recognize you as THAT Dakota, at least at first.) I'd like to say I'd accept you as the avatar you presented as, but I suspect Dakota Tebaldi is so fixed in my mind as 'kid' that I'd probably go ahead and change.

Hope that helps... off to read the rest of the thread, and perhaps find out what prompted this, and what you are looking for.

Go to any public beach in this country and you are guarantied to see near nudity. In that perspective, I have no problems with it.

The danger being around a child avi in this situation in sl would make me leave immediatly though. It's not worth the risk.

People have been banned for less.

I disagree with this. As a group, we decide what we want the Forum Hangout to be. We're friendly to new people, but that doesn't mean we have to be another Shelter. From the very beginning, I never thought anything different than that the Hangout is a mature place, and that adult humor and attitudes are prevalent there. I will point out emphatically that I've been told time and time again that in a by-the-book way I'm ALWAYS welcome there; the isolated incidents of nudity isn't something that happens all the time, and the notion that there's times less appropriate for kid avatars than others isn't a hard and fast rule, but merely a convention that the membership has fallen into.

Yes, I understand that to be the case, and for myself, I have no problem at all with that.

Still, I try to imagine the circumstances under which I'd show up nude at the Hangout myself. Ignoring for the moment the occasional confusion I get about whether Qie is supposed to be a child AV (dammit), I'd still feel very uncomfortable doing it (unless, as Brenda posits, it's explicitly a nude-friendly event), and the reason I'd feel uncomfortable is that I think it would make others uncomfortable. That's pretty much the last thing I want to do at the Hangout (or anywhere else).

We can imagine a world in which everybody is nude all the time, or one in which every setting is appropriate for nudity all the time. I don't think this is that world. Alternatively, we can imagine the Hangout to be a setting where nudity is appropriate some of the time. I think that's pretty much where we are now--without universal agreement about which times those should be.

I will say that the Hangout is not a public help center setting--which is what I expected when I first heard about it and TPd in. I guess I thought it would be an extension of RA, with the regulars dispensing expertise to all comers. In retrospect, that was a very silly preconception, and I'm glad I was wrong about that. (I do still wonder whether any newcomers arrive with the same mistaken idea, and how much they're either disappointed or relieved by what they find instead.)

I think this, as always, depends on a certain empathy existing between people.

To be blunt, I never have and never will have any emotional attachment to the little cluster of pixels that we like to call an avatar.

Hence the reason that when I take little holidays from SL, I bin the last little fella and create a new one when I get back. It's part of the game for me, and whether I call it Atticus or Andrew or Tom, Dick or Jane .. it will always be nothing more than the price I pay for exploring SL.

For me then, I agree with those that argue that avatars are just comic strip characters.

Worrying about who's naked and who's not is like worrying if Jessica Rabbit's clothing was a little too risque for young impressionable minds.

I do however appreciate that some people are emotionally one and the same with their avatars and, as a corollary, have an emotional response to other avatars and the way they look/behave.

Therefore, despite my incredulity that anyone would feel that way, I do think that expectations should be set and met with regards to behaviour and decorum in a given location.

Perhaps even enforced if necessary, by a thick virtual strap, across a pale virtual bottom, ensuring vivid virtual welts. Which, I'm sure, will result in real as well as virtual tears for those that really do live through their avatar.

Oh dear.. did I go too far..?

So that's what this is about. There's at least one contributing factor that's probably not very interesting to you, but nonetheless has an effect on reactions: People don't want to break other people's RP. So, if you appear as a child AV, or without an AV at all (as in group chat), you're going to be treated as much like a child as the situation and participants can support because, as far as they know, you're playing a child. Isn't that to be expected?

Your interest, as I understand it, is in something else: the difficulty people have in letting go of that RP persona, even if you change avatars or otherwise make explicit that you're not "Cody the Kid" at the moment. That's not all that surprising either, though. It's why it's so much easier to have one persona per alt. People interact with their model of "you" and if their experience of you is overwhelmingly of "Cody the Kid," they're going to need some practice interacting with "Cody the Elder." You're right: it's different with, say, dog avatars because nobody consistently interacts with a dog avatar as if it were a dog; we aren't surprised to "pat Rover's head" and discuss particle physics with it in the same breath--a dog AV doesn't project a complete internally consistent canine persona; most child AVs do, or try to.

Probably this is less of a problem for folks who just aren't very good at portraying children, avatar notwithstanding.

Please reread the second paragraph of my post.

Well- ok there could be exceptions...

I would hope that people would be at least a little freaked out if I showed up somewhere as a human.

I think the lemur in this picture is my only primate avatar.

I suppose it usually is - but I consider myself a special case (who doesn't? ). I consider my avatar to be the only thing about me that's child-like. Except on rare occasions (usually for humorous reasons), I don't think I really "roleplay" a child character. I don't make an effort to youngen-up my speech, or my affect. I don't wear kid's clothes (although I suppose any clothes could be said to become "kids clothes" when worn on a child avatar, because they shrink down to size). I live in my own "house", I don't RP attending school. Two possibilities:

1. My "RL" personality is sufficiently immature/young/sophomoric/whatever you deem it, that I unwittingly reinforce my SL kid image simply by being "me". If that's true, then I'd say my choice of avatar as self-expression is a VERY good one indeed.

2. While my "actions" and attitudes may not be childlike, it doesn't matter because the mere image of a child is enough all by itself to evoke the sorts of reactions people have in SL to child avatars, which is often the same as their reactions to real children - and after said reactions have been evoked, changing your appearance simply can't unring the bell. I'm more inclined to believe this because - well, ask any self-proclaimed adult avatar that's been kicked out of a club for being "a child avatar" based on their height.

I do understand what you mean, though, about respecting others' roleplay. I can believe it's what people naturally do because I do the same thing without thinking. When Lexxi's at the Hangout, I don't think of her tail and kitty ears as "attachments", I think of them as part of her, and treat them as such. *scritches behind Lexxi's ears*



Yes, that's what I'm most interested in. I'm not saying it's an inconvenience - for me anyway - I just find it curious is all.

Firstly, I think this thread will run forever because it is so interesting. So well done, Dakota. My first response comment is a little nit-picky but I dont think you can decide who will respond to your post. Most of the people who respond to mine have never met me except here in forums. It's just the name of the game.

The "dirty little boy"? All - ALL - little boys have "dirty" minds - meaning of course a pre-teen and a teenager viewpoint on women, girls and sex. Please point me in the direction of one boy who hasn't got a lascivious intent. And I don't just mean teenagers. Of course you were tongue in cheek over "pure and innocent" but as far as being allowed into even the sl world of conversations on sex when you are a child ava. well, that will never happen even if people here protest and say it will. In a real sense, BEING Dakota has excluded you from adulthood here as soon as people realize from your profile you are masquerading as an adult when you appear as one.

You raise serious issues. The age-old (sl, at least) controversy over child versus adult. I susppect it's cultural as well as an obvious one. Here we "attempt" liberalism and bonhommie amongst each other but I truly feel there is an awkwardness between adult and child here no matter what the relationship might be. After all, you cannot escape from the fact that you must be over 18. So for most of us, the question still remains; why be a child at all? Oh sure, it was lovely being one, and sometimes being adult is the pits. But I honestly have NEVER met anyone in real who has ever said "I wish I was ten years old again". So it is a minority of us, I believe. I think we - me, for sure - are frightened of being around child avs. Frankly, I don't trust a child av. Sooner or later he or she will point out they are a child and I must quell my attitides or speech.

In that respect, child avs ar eprobably the most "political" and aggressive group intent on policy making and changing in sl. They are almost "off-limits" as far as criticism goes. Everyone looks askance when anyone critiques them. Will people embrace the person who says, "I dont like the idea of a man pretending to be a little girl" and vice versa. But its bound to happen.

Do we have a right to be children in sl? Of course we do. Do I have a right to ignore the fact that I am really standing in front of a midget dressed in doll's clothes? Of course I do. I'm sorry to all child avs in sl, but I won't play along. You have long gone passed the "concrete thought processes" of the pre-pubescent child and are now well into abstract thinking. You can NEVER go back to childhood, no matter how hard you try. It's "childhood's end" for you and for me.