Shadows and lighting update
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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06-04-2008 01:28
From: Vivienne Schell Oh, dear, if there were no Premium users, you won´t be able to discuss all the breathtaking "progress". Obviously you misunderstand that SL is a business, not a playground for "cutting edge" fanatics.
It is ALL about Premium Accounts, and every "progress" which causes decline is another nail in the coffin of this nice little network named "Second Life". And the latest graphic "progress" surely was another nail. Yep down with Sculpties and Flexiprims, actually down with wearing prims, let's get rid of color all together too.
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Buckaroo Mu
Alpha Geek
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 106
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06-04-2008 07:10
From: Kitty Barnett Most of the time I have to tinker with the advanced sky settings since not everything is obvious (if there's anything between the object and the sun, the light will be blocked and there won't be a shadow, or it will be overcast by the other object's shadow). Heh - I hadn't thought about that. Just think: all those skyboxes casting giant shadows all over. I suppose they will cull anything out of draw range from the shadow calculations - which will be interesting while moving. Hrm. |
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Morgaine Alter
dreamer
Join date: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 1,204
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06-04-2008 07:37
okay I am going for this. Thanks this is great. Started downloading almost everything. TY  Dont know if any could help me with this portion? ~dont know what I am grabing there Grabbing the source from CVS: * install RapidSVN ( http://rapidsvn.tigris.org/) * I don't have it here right now . I think it's either the second or third top level menu and then "Check out" ~then this had no valid link URL: http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/branches/shadow-draft/Local folder: create a new folder somewhere (you'll save yourself potential headaches by making sure there aren't spaces in the path anywhere), ie "SL-Shadows" So I just finished downloading Visual Studio Professional 2003. It was free from my school so happy.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-04-2008 09:34
From: Morgaine Alter So I just finished downloading Visual Studio Professional 2003. It was free from my school so happy. It was written for VS2005  . It should be mostly the same except you'll need to open indra_complete.sln instead of indra_complete_vc8.sln. From: someone Dont know if any could help me with this portion? ~dont know what I am grabing there Grabbing the source from CVS: * install RapidSVN ( http://rapidsvn.tigris.org/) * I don't have it here right now . I think it's either the second or third top level menu and then "Check out" Once you open RapidSVN: Repository / Checkout URL: http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/branches/shadow-draft/Destination Directory: click the ... button and pick a folder where you want to fetch everything to (Don't use the Desktop since it actually has spaces in the full path) --- They just did a new sync of the source as well yesterday so if something broke, it's not my fault  . |
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Chaos Markstein
Registered User
Join date: 22 Nov 2007
Posts: 235
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06-04-2008 09:42
I still think that someone should zip up the entire installed folder with the shadow SL client in and upload it to megaupload.com for the sake of easyness
i REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY! want 2 test it but it simply wont compile
im not wasting any more hours, i spent the entire day yesterday trying to make it compile with absolutely no luck, i tried EVERYTHING, even asked a linden and they didnt know what was wrong
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Morgaine Alter
dreamer
Join date: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 1,204
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06-04-2008 09:56
I just figured that out.  But I can get that version too just have to wait for it in the snail mail. Anyway I can continue next week which will be great! ty so much Kitty.
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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06-04-2008 12:28
I started testing 1.18 v 1.19 on my laptop with the Intel 945.
At Gurl 6, with about 15 or so avs in the sim, 96m draw, local lights on, bumpmap & shiny, midlevel object & tree detail, high terrain detail, no avatar impostors, and high postprocess quality I noticed no appreciable difference between Windlight and 1.18 - I had a rockin' 4.4 fps in 1.18.5 and about 4.7 in 1.19.1.4. Had the water rendered as nicely as it used to, I think the fps would have been about the same.
With my Nvidia 8800 on a quad core intel rig with 4mb RAM, there is a 3-5 fps difference between the two, but I need to go back and make sure the settings are completely uniform but it is like night and day - once the textures have rezzed in, I'm getting over 30 fps.
The machine of interest, however, is the one with the ATI x1300, the midlevel computer that is about 18 months old. I'll set that up, probably tonight, and take a look at the frame rates.
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Kitty Barnett
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Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-04-2008 13:39
From: Cristalle Karami Had the water rendered as nicely as it used to, I think the fps would have been about the same. Basic shaders is what causes the about 30% FPS drop for me. WindLight without basic shaders (what gives you the old ripple water) does perform as well as the old viewer, but it looks worse so it's not much of a practical comparison. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-04-2008 13:44
From: Chaos Markstein can i see some more images of the shadows in use, in places like Toxia City, Midian, and in some more built up areas with things in like street lamps and other fine details that would cast shadows, i want to see the resaults it has on other prims/transparent images etc Only the sun casts shadows, most local lights remove shadows (in the sense that white lights brightens shadows) so the only effect you'd get from street lights is that it would render all of them, and has per-pixel lighting instead of the per-vertex lighting we have now. Midian is much too bright to get too many shadows (usually between 80-150 lights) so most of the difference is in the new lighting. (You never did tell me what specifically you wanted to see so I just picked some random spots) Regular:  Deferred:  Regular:  Deferred:  Regular:  Deferred:  Regular:  Deferred:  (I think we should rename "facelights" to "searchlights" - look in the bottom center-right corner) Regular:  Deferred:  |
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
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06-04-2008 13:56
Wow...
Yep, the 8800 came just in time!!
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Hirokii Hyun
Registered User
Join date: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 9
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06-04-2008 15:36
Dave Linden isn't developing this anymore I think. He released the source code so that anyone with the knowhow could get it working right, they're welcome to submit it as a patch for LL to add to it. If someone pulled off Shadow volumes and put it in SL, while the shadows would be sharp, they'd look pretty good with a low cost if implemented right. Right now what Dave linden has in there is high level shadowing and whatnot. Example: http://www.the-nextlevel.com/reviews/pc/doom-3/doom-3-d.jpg |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-04-2008 16:22
From: Hirokii Hyun Dave Linden isn't developing this anymore I think. Someone at LL is if not him, there was a code sync for it yesterday. And I think you're mixing up puppeteering with shadows. They did release the former today in an "we're not doing anything with it anymore, maybe someone else will". |
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Darien Caldwell
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3,127
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06-04-2008 18:48
From: Kitty Barnett Someone at LL is if not him, there was a code sync for it yesterday.
And I think you're mixing up puppeteering with shadows. They did release the former today in an "we're not doing anything with it anymore, maybe someone else will". Yes, don't let Dave see you said he wasn't working on it. He's liable to toss a donut at you. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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06-04-2008 19:10
From: Darien Caldwell Yes, don't let Dave see you said he wasn't working on it. He's liable to toss a donut at you. I never said he wasn't, the post above mine did . If he was tossing choc-chip cookies I might be saying it lotses though . --- Someone IM'ed me earlier and while he needed some minor help, he managed to compile it from scratch and he'd never done it before so it is possible . (And for those who IM'ed me and offered bribes... only choc chip cookies bribes are any good... I don't want "free stuff" ) |
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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06-04-2008 21:32
From: Brenda Connolly Ok a hundred bucks I could maybe consider shelling out , but what kind of power supply do those cards require,? I have 350Watts. I don't want to have to upgrade that too. You can't get much for a hundred and 350w is not really enough if you get a 8 series. You should just wait for a new high powered system. |
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Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
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06-04-2008 23:13
From: Rebecca Proudhon You can't get much for a hundred and 350w is not really enough if you get a 8 series. You should just wait for a new high powered system. Then that's going to be a Looooong wait.
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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06-05-2008 02:20
From: Brenda Connolly Then that's going to be a Looooong wait. You may already know, but Dell has there own credit card that has set low monthly payments. a $3999 xps desktop is $120 a month a $2949 xps desktop is $89 a month a $1499 xps desktop is $45 a month They will all run SL fine. |
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Khamudy Mannonen
Registered User
Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 24
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06-05-2008 07:42
From: Vivienne Schell For SNAPSHOTS?
Are you real????? Yep yep, lots of people do it. I'm due to be exhibiting some of them at the Museum of Modern Art in Florence, Italy, this coming October with another twenty or so people. You might think it's crazy, but I've always been into art and photography - Second Life allows me to try and experience with a huge number of compositions for next to nothing; things that would cost hundreds, if not thousands of pounds, to do in Real Life. Plus in Second Life you can collaborate easily and come up with some very interesting stuff. It's not the full "hyper-formalist" art, but I have trouble getting my head around hyper-formalism and doing anything with it. Perhaps in time, as my building skills increase and I have a better working knowledge of scripting. I welcome any developments in the graphic engine that reduce the amount of 'tidying up' one has to do to images, even if it's a demanding feature on the machine running it that has to be disabled for a while. At some point I'll get round to upgrading my machine to make that unnecessary. |
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Brenda Connolly
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06-05-2008 07:50
From: Rebecca Proudhon You may already know, but Dell has there own credit card that has set low monthly payments.
a $3999 xps desktop is $120 a month
a $2949 xps desktop is $89 a month
a $1499 xps desktop is $45 a month
They will all run SL fine. I might possibly allow myself to spend $1500 on a computer, maybe, but I'm wouldn't finance one. I'm not planning to buy anything for at least another year, anyway. This one works fine for now.
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Khamudy Mannonen
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Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 24
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06-05-2008 07:51
From: Vivienne Schell You talk of "cutting edge" development? I can tell you what "cutting edge" in gaming is: Grand Theft Audio. And this did not even make it to the PC platform. But THIS is "cutting edge", consoles will replace any PC because the PC simply won´t get much more faster anymore. The GPU won´t get much more better and capable anymore, and developers will go for the more capable game consoles.
SL is NOT a place for professional gamers, if it were, it would be dead since years. This is a platform for social networking, creativity, exchange, socialising and decent business. The majority of people using it are NOT into it for killing aliens. Developers who neglect their own customer base should try to get a job at sites who really DO "cutting edge" for hardcore gamers and consoles instead of developing for SL - and NOT pester OUR world with the term "cutting edge" and "obsolete".
SL was as "cutting edge" as it could be until LL released this useless windlight feature. Nowe it is "over the edge" in performance for the vast majority of it´s own customer base...
But...considering your own anticipation: Go for the xBox or any other console NOW, cause within three years time there will be NO "cutting edge" game available for the PC any longer. If you want "cutiing edge". People have been saying this for years and it's never happened, consoles are becoming stripped down PCs and all the development is done for them on a combination of PCs and in some cases, Macs. Most of your argument is irrelevant, I can't do the full range of things in SL that I can in Grand Theft Auto. You're comparing two dissimilar things and then coming to a flawed conclusion. I couldn't care less what is in Grand Theft 'Audio', I only care that Second Life continues to develop its potential and its use of the most modern technology. It won't be cutting edge until it has the money and resources to do so, but of the "massive social networking platforms" or whatever industry buzzword you use, it's pretty much on the 'cutting edge', even if it is clunky and out-dated looking. The words 'cutting edge' and obsolete will always be used around Second Life and it will always move forward, eventually requiring hardware upgrades to work. 'Tis the way of the world. |
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Marianne McCann
Feted Inner Child
Join date: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 7,145
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06-05-2008 08:51
I'd love to see some landscape shots...
...and, of course, in Livingtree -- like around the duck pond, the campsite in the north east corner, the main area, and the finshing landing in the southeast.
(I wish there was some mac version of all this!)
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Brenda Connolly
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06-05-2008 09:03
From: Khamudy Mannonen People have been saying this for years and it's never happened, consoles are becoming stripped down PCs and all the development is done for them on a combination of PCs and in some cases, Macs.
Most of your argument is irrelevant, I can't do the full range of things in SL that I can in Grand Theft Auto. You're comparing two dissimilar things and then coming to a flawed conclusion. I couldn't care less what is in Grand Theft 'Audio', I only care that Second Life continues to develop its potential and its use of the most modern technology. It won't be cutting edge until it has the money and resources to do so, but of the "massive social networking platforms" or whatever industry buzzword you use, it's pretty much on the 'cutting edge', even if it is clunky and out-dated looking.
The words 'cutting edge' and obsolete will always be used around Second Life and it will always move forward, eventually requiring hardware upgrades to work. 'Tis the way of the world. Is GTA now the inappropriate Game comparison, replacing WoW? If so, I know a few people who you may want to send a memo to.
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Rebecca Proudhon
(TM)
Join date: 3 May 2006
Posts: 1,686
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06-05-2008 14:04
Grand Theft Auto graphics is not that stunning at all. SL looks better on a high end machine. There are other games that have better graphics.
The Graphics/tools goal of SL IMO, should be Softimage and Maya quality. Where Sl really falls down is in the tools to move and manuever around and build with. For instance in SL, combat, movement is very primitive and in building, the tools are very primtive and clunky.
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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06-05-2008 14:48
From: Rebecca Proudhon Grand Theft Auto graphics is not that stunning at all. SL looks better on a high end machine. There are other games that have better graphics.
The Graphics/tools goal of SL IMO, should be Softimage and Maya quality. Where Sl really falls down is in the tools to move and manuever around and build with. For instance in SL, combat, movement is very primitive and in building, the tools are very primtive and clunky. Yes and that is why people see GTA as better "graphics" than SL. Picture viewer can show better images than SL too. SL allows you to make a stunning Chevy coupe, but can it have shadows underneath, moving suspension, roling squeling tyres, real headlights that work and drive across a postcode boundry without crashing through the ground?
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Keira Wells
Blender Sculptor
Join date: 16 Mar 2008
Posts: 2,371
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06-05-2008 14:57
From: Tegg Bode Yes and that is why people see GTA as better "graphics" than SL. Picture viewer can show better images than SL too. SL allows you to make a stunning Chevy coupe, but can it have shadows underneath, moving suspension, roling squeling tyres, real headlights that work and drive across a postcode boundry without crashing through the ground? Other than the boundary bit, that's all possible  Though..it'd be a bitch to script it all.
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