Shadows and lighting update

For SNAPSHOTS?

Are you real?????

You talk of "cutting edge" development? I can tell you what "cutting edge" in gaming is: Grand Theft Audio. And this did not even make it to the PC platform. But THIS is "cutting edge", consoles will replace any PC because the PC simply won´t get much more faster anymore. The GPU won´t get much more better and capable anymore, and developers will go for the more capable game consoles.

SL is NOT a place for professional gamers, if it were, it would be dead since years. This is a platform for social networking, creativity, exchange, socialising and decent business. The majority of people using it are NOT into it for killing aliens. Developers who neglect their own customer base should try to get a job at sites who really DO "cutting edge" for hardcore gamers and consoles instead of developing for SL - and NOT pester OUR world with the term "cutting edge" and "obsolete".

SL was as "cutting edge" as it could be until LL released this useless windlight feature. Nowe it is "over the edge" in performance for the vast majority of it´s own customer base...

But...considering your own anticipation: Go for the xBox or any other console NOW, cause within three years time there will be NO "cutting edge" game available for the PC any longer. If you want "cutiing edge".

Where to start....



I presume you mean "AUTO".



Yeah, and Moore's Law is finally dead. Come on, people have been saying this for DECADES. And instead, the consoles - such as the XBox - are made more and more out of PC PARTS.



Social Networking /and/ socialising(sic) at the same time? And "decent business"? I actually know quite a few people who are in SL specifically to shoot - well, each other, not necessarily aliens.



You know, I keep hearing people yell about Windlight. Yet on the four computers I have SL installed on - mine, my wife's, my "downstairs", and my work, Windlight gives noticeably better performance than previous viewers.



Uh... let me guess. Mac user? I'm sorry, that was probably uncalled for on my part. Either way, we're not here to debate the merits of Console vs. PC - we're here to look at a POSSIBLE, VERY EARLY DEVELOPMENT, TECH DEMO, PRE-BETA, "for your consideration", potential feature that /might/ be included in SL sometime in the next three years. Or might be dropped outright.

Oh - and if there were no Premium Users, there would still be Island Owners (who don't have to be premium) renting to all those free accounts. After all, that's what the free account people tell us all the time. Oh... and I'm a premium user. Have been since my 2nd week in SL, and will be until they stop taking my money.

Buzz off.

Yowzers those shadows look good...however, not to be picky, but if you're going to create a lighting engine that casts shadows, local lights are of significant importance to design and atmosphere. Having just the sun cast shadows is cool...but the difference is night and day (literally).

Sadly, it would probably increase the proliferation of facelights, creating even more lightsources to calculate.

This subject has been a hot button on the SLDev lately, several JIRA entries have been opened where LL is asking for feeback on 1.18 vs 1.19 performance. I know it's hard to believe, but LL truely hasn't grasped yet that windlight is worse on some machines. They are adamant it's better and faster. Only clear-cut data showing otherwise will change their minds, but perhaps at this point it's too late.

I will be happy to show 1.18 performance on my three computers to compare performance at the low and high end between 1.18.5 and 1.19.4. I have a laptop with Intel 945, a desktop with an ATI x1300, and now a new desktop with nvidia 8800. I think I'll go to gurl6 and do the benchmark test there.

Okies.... the "How to compile your own viewer for dummies" walk-through *sticks out her tongue at Keira and reminds herself to get a decent headstart after posting this *

(Use 2005 and not 2008 since for 2008 you'd need to compile all the third party libraries as well, with 2005 you can just link with the LL supplied ones)

Setting up (only needs to be done once):
(You can install all three anywhere, you don't have to accept the default if you want to put them somewhere else)
* download and install the Windows SDK
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=F26B1AA4-741A-433A-9BE5-FA919850BDBF&displaylang=en (full download)
* download and install the DirectX SDK (actually just need a few files from this one, but installing is easier)
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=572be8a6-263a-4424-a7fe-69cff1a5b180&DisplayLang=en
* download and install Cygwin
http://www.cygwin.com/

Open Visual Studio:
* Tools / Options / Projects and Solutions / VC++ Directories
- dropdown "Include Files": make sure both the include folder from where you installed the Windows SDK and the one from the DirectX SDK are listed, or add them manually if they're not there (ie if you installed the DirectX SDK into "c:\Program Files\DirectX SDK" then you need to add "c:\Program Files\DirectX SDK\include"
It's best if the WinSDK path is on the top (you can use the arrows to move them), the DirectX one can be anywhere
- dropdown "Library Files": same as the above, only this time you're adding the lib folder from both the DirectX SDK and the Windows SDK.
- dropdown "Executable Files": add the path to Cygwin's bin folder (ie "c:\cygwin\bin" if you installed it into the default location)

Grabbing the source from CVS:
* install RapidSVN (http://rapidsvn.tigris.org/)
* I don't have it here right now . I think it's either the second or third top level menu and then "Check out"
URL: http://svn.secondlife.com/svn/linden/branches/shadow-draft/
Local folder: create a new folder somewhere (you'll save yourself potential headaches by making sure there aren't spaces in the path anywhere), ie "SL-Shadows"

Artwork & LL compiled libraries (viewer release specific):
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2008/06/slviewer-win32-libs-shadow-draft-r88721.zip
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2008/06/slviewer-artwork-shadow-draft-r88721.zip

Extract both and drop them into the folder where you checked the source out to, but make sure the folders match (ie the artwork's indra folder needs to be combined with the indra folder you checked out into "SL-Shadows" just earlier).

You'll need FMOD as well (instructions on the wiki).

---

Dig down into the "SL-Shadows" folder to indra/indra_complete and double-click indra_complete_vc8.sln to open.

(If you get an error about the llimagej2coj project, click the error away. Left-click on the project in the Solution Explorer, press F4 for the Properties tab, click on the value of File Path - it'll be bold - and you'll see a button with three dots appear behind it, click it, pick "llimage2coj.vcproj", Open. Then right-click the llimagej2coj in the Solutions Explorer and pick "Reload Project" from the context menu)

Open /indra/llmedia/llmediabase.h and change the 1 behind LL_QUICKTIME_ENABLED to 0 so you don't have to worry about QuickTime.

Then click on the toolbar drop down that should say "Debug" (if you don't see one, right-click on the toolbox area and make sure "Standard" is checked) and change it to ReleaseForDownload (another way is Build / Configuration Manager).

Right-click on the newview project and pick "Set as Startup Project", then Alt+Enter for the properties (or right-click it again and pick Properties). Expand Linker, then left-click Input. Click on the value for "Additional Dependencies" and click the ... button that appears.

Look for qtmclient.lib and remove that line entirely, then look for dxerr8.lib and change that to dxerr9.lib, then change EZ_LCD_Wrapper_vc8.lib to EZ_LCD_Wrapper.lib.

Build / Build Solution to start actually compiling, unless I missed something there shouldn't be any compile or link errors (warnings are fine, you can just ignore those).

---

Putting it all together:
(There's probably an easier way but since it doesn't take that much time I just tend to do it manually)

Create a new folder somewhere for the actual viewer:
* copy SecondLife.exe from indra/newview/ReleaseForDownload
* copy the app_settings, character, fonts and skins folders from indra/newview/
* copy all the DLLs from indra/newview (in addition to featuretable.txt, gpu_table.txt and SLVoice.exe, SLVoiceAgent.exe and win_crash_logger.exe)
* copy all the DLLs from libraries/i686-win32/lib-release

Done . Congrats!

(I probably missed a few things since this was written mostly from memory )

THANK YOU!

And yeah, ima dummy, but I know it so it's ok

Or not. Either way, I dun mind ^_^

Bah... it's just no fun if you can't even pretend to be offended!

And you're not a dummy .

OK im just downloading now? what version of the SL source do i need to download? or are those the links (with the source code in) you have posted...

"Artwork & LL compiled libraries (viewer release specific):
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2008/06/slviewer-win32-libs-shadow-draft-r88721.zip
http://secondlife.com/developers/opensource/downloads/2008/06/slviewer-artwork-shadow-draft-r88721.zip"

when you say "compiled libraries" does that mean you have compiled it for us and we just have to copy it into the SL directory and fire it up, if so what version?

Alright, Chaos.. she's been awesome enough to write a buttload on how to do it.

Pretend you've never done anything before, and follow it start to finish. Actually do it.

I sooo totally am a dummy. If I wasn't a dummy, I'd be getting a job instead of playing around on games all day

Or I'd be..uhm....finding a way to make money without a job, even better! (Legally of course..or..mostly,w/e)

And uhmm.. 'HEY! Thass not nice. Meaniebutt'

Better?

I am, just wanted 2 know what version of the source sdk i need to download (i have a 2MBit connection, i dont want to sit here and try them all until i get the right one)

edit: the windows SDK is 1GB, thats gonna take 8 hours on my connection 2 download,lol

Follow it. Completely.In fact, read through it first. And download what she says to download.

ETA:: Yeah the DirectX SDK wasn't small either.. the Windows one is downloading for me atm, has about 20 minutes left (Of a total hour 15)

thankfully i allready have the DX SDK installed, hey tell me if it works, if i get mine working first ill send you an allready compiled copy, and vice versa, if u get urs working first please send me a copy, might save time (and bandwidth)

I'm gonna go get some food, so it'll be a couple hours before I continue.. so you might get something running first, in which case.. good job =P

not so sure, 6 hours left for the windowsSDK, then i still have 2 download FMOD

FMod was fast for me, a couple minutes, so not too much to worry there.

Only 10.7 megs

I've just looked at the 5 snapshots of SL experiment with shadows. Ever since I came to SL I've been on about the need for shadows and I still say that to me they are the no.1 priority. It CAN be done and it IS being worked on, as evidenced by the links given on previous posts. The sooner we get shadows, the better.

I agree, shadows (when incorporated fully) will be a huge bonus, and truly make SL quite a bit better and more immersive in my opinion.

HOWEVER, I also agree that with how they're going about it now, this is going to cause far too much lag, and still not be enough. As it is, local lights don't cause shadows, which is a problem, and it's apparently essentially doing a per-pixel raytracing.

There are a few problems with this.With just the sun, the per-pixel is going to be bad. With local lights as well, it's going to cause even Bill Gates' computer to crash. I don't believe this to be an exaggeration, I believe it to be true, because of the number of local lights, and the fact that each would be acting as essentially another sun, just with a smaller radius of effect.

It seems to me that it should be possible to create some sort of 'shadow profile' for an object upon creation.

What I mean is, when the object is created, the server (Or client does it then send info to the server) should be able to essentially do an internal run-through of all the day/night settings, and essentially save that objects shadows. When that object is edited and changed, it does this again, replacing the old 'shadow profile'. This would reduce the lag created with realtime raytracing, though take up a large amount of server space. The trade off though, I feel would be fair, as they can buy more servers whenever they want really, but they can't buy less lag, if that makes sense.

In addition, there shouldn't be an automatic transparency setting. It should be a per-object, creator set option, with perhaps four levels: Full Shadow, Soft Shadow, Transparent, and No Shadow.

Full shadow wold be most things, really. a chair would have a full shadow. Soft shadow would be things such as a single layer of cloth, curtains, etc, and would still have a shadow, just with softer edges. Transparent would be things such as clear plastic, tinted glass, etc, and would cause a very pale, and less shaped shadow. This allows it to count for the shape, but not take as much perfect raytracing through the material, and just create an approximation. No shadow means..well, no shadow. For glowing objects, lights, clear clean glass, etc.

Another foreseeable trade off is that environment settings would likely be toned down from our current windlight abilities.

To be able to control the brightness of the sun and ambiance and whatnot could conceivably make some settings substantially laggier than others, and some of our current ones downright impossible (Full ambient light, full sun, etc. Shadows would be going crazy I believe). Also, if using the 'shadow profile', then your client may have the sun in one place but shadows elsewhere. Essentially with shadow profiles as I described (If you don't want as much space taken up) you would have to keep daytime and such as region defaults.

Of course, these are all just random things that I think of that I think would work. None of this is tested to know if it would work, none of this has been overheard from a Linden, this is just what my mind brings up when I think about it.

Well local lights (althou they will not be local soon) should be limited, just like prims are now and i dont think that the actual prim should be the only way to amit light, you should have the ability to actually place "lights", but have a seperate system exactly the same as the prim limiting system in place on sims

The shadow profile does sound like a good idea. The only problem i can see with these shadows (no i cant get the viewer to compile, still 2many errors, followed EVERY step!) is alpha images (like custom trees, windows, etc) is that it is currently impossable to get them to project a shadow unless it is the shape/shade and size of the prim. this could be a problem

the only way to get an alpha image to show a shadow is to make it a "solid" alpha (like the leaf graphics on the linden trees). we would need this option, it would alos sort out allot of alpha sorting problems when it comes to placing texture transparent detail onto things (like walls with gaps in them etc)

From the photos i am curious as to the one taken in what looks like a mall, the shadow coming in from the sky has window details on it. how was this accomplished?

was this just prims casting shadows, or did u get some kind of solid alpha image and suprt impose it onto a normal (soft) alpha image?


Also, do prims have a settable option to cast shadows or not? (i heard prims have unused parameters in scripting)?

can i see some more images of the shadows in use, in places like Toxia City, Midian, and in some more built up areas with things in like street lamps and other fine details that would cast shadows, i want to see the resaults it has on other prims/transparent images etc

i would also like to see some screenshots of a busy sandbox (with lots of things on it) set to sunset and a transparent custom tree (like a botanicle one) on its own (or clear of any other object) casting a shadow at sunset

And if someone can please go to "Celestial Isle" (do a map search) and take a snapshot of some of the crap i have left laying around, and the tall overhead traintrack thing (i have left some transparent and other testing prims to see wich ones cast shadows and wich don't. and one or two of Dream City (the city next door),all set to sunset or sunrise if possable.

These would benefit allot of people and show off what the shadows/lighting can really offer

I am not sure what world you are playing in but it is not SL. I could reliably fight 3 people in WoW by myself and can essentialy shutdown anyone within 25m of me here by wearing one hair with one 3k prim outfit. If you are playing SL as a fighting game and not as a virtual world with internal fighting game elements you deserve to be racked up 100 or so times consistently on my DCS because you are a dunderhead.

I mean just saying because the poster is a schmuck, I mean not that I'd know of course, but yeah, hello ?

Send your friends to DCS or CCS sims and let the thread return to technical.

For me anyway, the first big clue came from here:
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/11/15/typical-frame-rate-performance-by-graphics-cardgpu/

so this newest employee outburst is no shock to me.

What is shocking to me is that it consistently seems that Linden is chasing a NICHE market they can't possibly compete in (high end games) while shunning the MAINSTREAM market. I just don't get it. I would love to be sitting even on a simple patent for any product that mainstream users were *demanding*.

The mall is in the Naughty sim, from what I remember it's just an alpha texture on the roof.

You can see the same effect in the pictures I posted though:


All prims cast shadows right now. I think this viewer is mostly just a "proof of concept" first draft, it could be that what we end up getting is going to look a whole lot better, or it could look a whole lot worse if they can't get the performance of it sorted out and have to make compromises.

If you can drop a notecard on me with landmarks and coordinates in the sim (and which direction to face) I'll try and get a few taken. I can't use the web search (and it crashes on links) so I need landmarks to get around at all.

Most of the time I have to tinker with the advanced sky settings since not everything is obvious (if there's anything between the object and the sun, the light will be blocked and there won't be a shadow, or it will be overcast by the other object's shadow).