The Lord of the Flies - Child AVs and the Nursery Syndrome

A person has recently initiated an important topic in Forums. His thread is getting ungainly and awkward to read for many who are not sure where the original topic is coming from. I am initiating this thread not to "steal his thunder" but to continue what I consider to be a crucial discussion that has implications for many of us and - maybe - for the survival of SL itself as an arena of free expression and free choice. Please understand that I do NOT wish to offend anyone in this thread.

What do you REALLY believe "we" can gain from presenting ourselves as "children" and are child Avs compromising us with their presence?

Here is my "take" on this. I have been here long enough now that I think I can express soem serious and valid opinions.

Despite what people may protest here, I sincerely believe that the presence of child avs in the majority of adult situations or gatherings makes many of us uncomfortable in sl. As in reality, adult conversation is chilled and muted in the real sense of the word and a false chit-chat applied that we hear so often when kids are around. Wherever and whatever the situation, adults REALLY do censor themselves whenever a child is present and even when the animated image of a child is present we "gear down" and regard the adult-child as "suspicious".

To "play" the child restricts the player - I suggest a sense of distrust is immediately felt. After all, it's not regarded as a "fun" thing to do for the average adult to revert back to childhood behaviours and activites. People answer with "well, we're minotaurs, cats, dogs also" but that is somewhat different, isn't it?

We can NEVER be a dog or a Satyr so we create scenarios just as I do in my real work for the benefit of audience but we have all BEEN children. So we are NOT really "inventing" as a child but rememberng our own experiences and applying them. Or re-eetablishing what we never had or THINK we never had.

The presence of a child focusses each of us on our pasts or our immediate families and memories of the past. I don't encourage children to be in my real presence. Friends know that I have too may precious objects in my real environments for them to break! And they are "germ factories" that I must avoid if I am to work at what I do without interruption. In sl, I don't have much to say to children since I dont have much to say to children in reality except "Have a nice day" or "Wow, that looks like a great toy!"

There ARE laws which forbid specific interaction with children and animations of children. I wholeheartedly agree with them. In fact, I think they should be tougher. When we reject the child in our SL midst or if we vacate the SL party when a child appears, it is not that we don't like or respect children, it's that we feel we must acknowledge there are situations that could occur that the average av or person doesnt want to be involved in.

I will reiterate that I do not believe playing the "Fool" (as Shakespeare might see it) is a safe or wise thing to do. Many have felt offended that I previously wrote that my own childhood was "brilliant - it was, and I can't change that. Several have indicated that their's was awful. I am sorry for that. THAT simply confirms my opinion that parents should be licensed beofre they can have kids! I truly do not feel that playing out scenes here or anywhere else for that matter are really going to unwrap all the pyschoses and trauma-related issues that adults might feel in terms of their own pasts.

Playing at children is playing with fire. Read William Golding's "Lord of the Flies" instead. It's so much safer.

So comments please - do sl children make you uncomfortably aware of the importance of respecting real children by NOT playing with fire here? Or are they a "good thing" that I simply don't understand?

Could you be more specific about the ways it changes your behavior? I can't imagine changing anything, unless I were actually involved in the sort of activity where a child av would be prohibited.

More in what we say when they arrive on the scene. A child AV creates the "have a cookie" type of deal. Coversation must immediately be censored since we are in a "false" PG situation. The kid is a real adult so why can't we all still speak as adults? That kind of thing, Kidd.

I now immediately depart when a child appears. I don't want to be ARed because someone has played "dress-up". No goodbyes, just swoosh!

Well Jig - it's probably not for you, but some of the most fun I ever had in SL is hanging around Mari and her buddies when they are doing something utterly innocent and silly, like having a blurtophone concert. (These have to be seen to be believed - complete silliness.) I suppose we could have been as silly in adult form, but maybe not so innocently silly.

For instance, we adults can be silly at the Hangout, but inevitably the conversation turns to adult innuendos. I enjoy these too, but it is just a different flavor of silliness than the kid avatar silliness.

I don't know if I'm making sense. It could be that this innocence is something older people miss. Maybe when you approach middle age, you begin to grow weary of the ongoing sexual tensions that are built into the human condition and may want to put them aside for a brief time. A very brief time! I think this is why I am often in a dog avatar form, but not always. I'm just speculating. I'm no psych major.

I know I for one would find SL a sadder place without its kid avatars - though I have no desire to be one myself and I'm a little creeped out by kids in RL.

[But I agree with you totally that they should not intrude themselves into otherwise adult situations. People should be able to behave as they want.]

But child avs are adults so does it really take being midget or child to restore that silliness?
I know I am a bit of a deadhead about things but it's my "thing" in real also. We gotta have fun and I promote it for my audience in public or private - but I just cant see me being a blurtophonic adherent. Laughing at ourselves is not always a brill. way of communicating our realness. I am just serious today coz I spent 3 real hours promoting a real message about confronting the disenfranchisement of women and promoting the sensitivity of men and the need for education in the humanities, fine arts and expressive arts.

Most of my time is spent in an establishment with PG-rules. If my presense somehow helps remind people of that, then jolly good!

If people feel like they should watch their mouth if I walk past em at neutral areas such as a mall, then that's their perogative.

I've never felt the need to alter my behavior in the presence of child avatars.

I'm not sure exactly what kind of behavior one would be prone to engage in where a child avatar might be present would result in an possible AR.

Can you be more specific here coz I think there is a real need to discuss this whole issue of self-expression and group expectations.

For example, in my reality, I am constantly aware of age-related appropriate content for my work. BUT I feel that what I have to say can only be communicated at a level that a youthful audience appreciates. Therefore, I am constantly in conflict-issues over my actual expression. The use of certain words is forbidden by self-sustaining editorial rules, I must obey or change by pushing the envelope. Yet my target audience starts at an age where such words are well-known and used.

But what is PG here - do we REALLY need it? For who's service is it being provided? Is it cultural or faith-related? I really dont think the child-on-line argument is a valid one.

You didn't want the comparison, but here it is anyway:
Many find running around being goofy as tinies funny. Could they be equally goofy as regular human avs? Sure, but it does take away a big part of the goofyness. Some think it adds to the experience to explore SL forests etc in animal form. Could they explore as humans? Sure. But it ain't the same, having a human walking in the centre of the camera may take something away from the experience. Some find it extra amusing to be silly in kid form, because kids tend to be silly by default. Is being silly as an adult the same? Well, some would say my adult account does a great job, I say I do better than him, so nyah.

You should see me sometimes in real.

I do want the contrast - a comparison is finding a similarity.

I welcome a debate.

What do any of us believe we can gain from presenting ourselves as ferrets, or dogs, or cats, or nekomimi, or any other non-adult or non/pseudo-human life form?

Children epitomize fun, freedom, and a complete disregard for the burdens of adulthood. Sure, for a few people, there may be deep-seated psychological reasons for playing children; however, I posit that for the vast majority of us, we do it simply because it's fun; and really... Does there *need* to be an explanation beyond that?

SL is limitless and most people do not have well defined self-imposed limits. That is why LL was forced to include limits on child avatars in the ToS. And still there are on going issues around common decency and child avatars.

Because people continue to disrespect childhood and break laws - I believe an all out ban on human child avatars in SL is the only clear solution.

I don't feel awkward around child ava's at all..If a child avatar shows up and starts having sex and you are in the room..You don't get the AR..They do and who is having sex with them..

All this paranoia started when a couple ava's show up to a linden party and some people that love to protest about everything decide to blow it out of proportion..Three months later there are still threads about it and an incident that happened like 2 years ago?

Seriously how many incidents has anyone heard of since that one a couple years ago and the linden party that was in an info hub on pg linden land that everyone in sl was invited to?

Well, YOU clearly don't need PG. And frankly, neither do I: the PG clubs and so forth that I've visited have mostly been very dull indeed, with everyone twisting themselves in knots not to avoid being shushed for saying inappropriate things.

But there clearly ARE people here who want PG. The hype from LL on this notwithstanding, PG wouldn't exist unless there were a demand for it. I can imagine all sorts of potential reasons for wanting PG areas, ranging from (as you note) faith-based belief systems, to online safety concerns.

Maybe I am misreading, but you seem, on the one hand, to be concerned about child avs cramping your style in adult and mature areas, and simultaneously questioning the need for the only area where they really CAN safely operate.

You mean, things like initiating naked flash-mobs on unsuspecting child avatars with the express purpose of grabbing screenshots and filing doctored ARs?

And where do you get the idea that "most people do not have well defined self-imposed limits"? Where is your evidence to substantiate and support this claim? I believe *most* people are quite respectful of limits. It is only a few that seem to have problems in this regard.

Jig,

I respect your opinions on this, and feel no need to go over all this yet again. You've read my replies to you on this topic before the last times you went down this discussion path. I have also offered to discuss this inworld with you, even to the point of offering to adjust my avatar for your comfort.

If this is such a big issue for you, then own it, much like others (Lias, above, for example). Know that the issue *is* yours, and move on. Trying to make this a "discussion" yet again is not, IMO, going to get the answers you want. It is simply going to fuel yet another pitched battle. Perhaps this is what you wanted, I dunno.

Sorry f'r my someone confrontational tone, I'm tired and a bit disappointed to have to go through this same topic over and over and over and over. I get it: you hate kids here and in RL. Yer welcome to do so.

Mari

The only thing I really got from this post Jig is that you have issues with children.

Seeing a child avatar doesn't really change my behavior, maybe because my behavior in SL is primarily boring, hanging out dancing with friends. Not really that much to change between me hanging out in a club of pretend 80 year olds or a club full of pretend 8 year olds.

As for sechs-nao-stuffs, well that is person to person based on my part, so yeah, not going to find any kid avatars, not going to find any demons or dogs either for that matter.

And I really don't want to know what other people are doing behind their closed cartoon doors with their not real cartoon characters, so it's not a big deal as far as my concerns in SL go. I'm much more worried about Lindens keeping REAL kids off the grid, server stability, asset server outages and 'item not found in database' than I am going around snooping in someone's skybox looking for reasons to be offended.

Patasha

Haven't we already beat this topic to death?

My problem with many child avatars is that they do seek to censor the behavior of others around them. Here is an example: A few months ago, my estate organized a large and elaborate Alice in Wonderland themed party. It was designed to have a darker feel and theme - less Disney, more Tim Burton or American McGee. Tons of people showed up, and we were all having a great time, until two child avatars arrived. They started with the annoying gestures and baby talk almost right away - but worst of all, they kept playing a "you said a bad word" baby voice gesture whenever someone used adult language in conversation. In other words, they showed up at the party and expected the rest of us to change our behavior because they like to pretend to be kids. This was not some x-rated orgy, just adults discussing life, and they came in and ruined it. I was furious. I should have told them to leave. If it ever happens again, I will!

I accept that child AVs ... and, it sounds like, to some degree real children ... make *you* uneasy, Jig. And I have no problem with your desire to TP out when one shows up. But, in return, I think that you have to accept that it isn't the case for everyone.

Nearly all my time inworld is spent as an adult human. When I see SL children, I usually engage in light "character" RP - I don't get involved in any family "storyline" RP. It's pretty easy.

Maybe part of both your and my reactions is simply the result of life experiences. Having raised a kid and been around a lot of other folks' kids, I don't feel the degree of inhibition in their presence that you seem to feel. Nor do I feel that all conversation has to center on the kid. If it turns out that a bunch of adults are discussing clothes shopping for an hour and the kid is bored, well, that's just life as a kid, and its their parent's issue to deal with the boredom. Nearly all RL usual topics of conversation are OK around kids in my book; and if the conversation moves to something they shouldn't hear, then in RL I would suggest to the parent that their kid may want to leave the room, wouldn't you? So when conversations go that way in SL, I just OOC IM the kid's "parent" -- that is to say, their typist -- with the same suggestion.

p.s. I don't see what Lord of the Flies has to do with this issue - you are talking about the relationship of SL children to adults, LotF is about the tendency of societies to degrade into violence in the absence of strong social contracts, as exemplified by a bunch of children abandoned in the laboratory of an island.
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Your tone doesn't sound confrontational. It just sounds tired. The only time I've been inworld with you, personaly, was at a fireworks show, lots of kids there, they were fun, doing fun, kid things. The adults there were there for the fireworks and interacting appropriately with the kids. Lots of other things there too, cats, dogs, fairies, etc. I get kid avs on my sim now and then, mostly looking at the art in the gallery. The only one that's ever made me uncomfortable was not because she was a kid, but because she was a kid vampire. That combo did make me uncomfortable, I think because I wasn't sure how to treat her, myself. On the SS Galaxy once, I tripped over a kid sitting on the floor. I reacted just as though I'd tripped over a rl kid, 'Oh, so sorry hon, I didn't see you'. SL is a big place. It's possible that kid avs don't bother me like they do Jig because I'm never doing anything they can't see or participate in. If I were, I'd go do that in a place appropriate for it. I don't feel that I should inhibit 'your' SL, or dictate to you who or what you should be there. If I have some kind of visceral bad feelings about 'anything' (for me it's vampires that I don't know, lol) then, I should leave, there's plenty places to go.

There is a better and clearer solution: An all-out ban on avatars who call for blanket bans on whole classes of avatars. SL would be much more peaceful, and these discussions much more sensible and constructive.

I disagree with the whole premise of threads like this. Everyone should have the avatar of his/her choice and no-one has to justify his/her choice to anyone - child, furry, Gor, animal, flaming-gay, with or without sex organs, what have you, with only one exception. That is avatars intended to be patently offensive, which should cover such stuff as depictions of Hitler or ethnic or racial groups in an obviously denigrating or insulting manner, and the like.

I propose a rule for discussions like this: If you want somebody else to justify their avatar, you have to justify your avatar to their satisfaction - and if you don't do that, shut up.

Jig, you started this iteration of this discussion, so you start. Go ahead, justify yourself - and it has to be to the satisfaction of the owners of child avatars posting.

That sounds more like an issue of using rp as a griefing tool. More of a matter of eject/ban to remove annoying people in general. Or if you don't have land rights.. a right click/mute. Once someone realizes being a dink has just gotten them muted by everyone in the sim, they usually move along to their next target.

I quite sympathize. Intrusive RP is rude whether the person doing it is an SL child, a D/S couple, or a tiny rabbit giving away easter eggs. I strongly believe that when people engaged in RP come to a non-RP sim, they should be extremely low-key, even perhaps suspend their character RP altogether.

One of the more intrusive RPs is Girl Genius Jaegers, because it involves a thick pseudo-German accent. The most considerate Jaegers I know tone it down a notch at parties with non-GG-aware guests, even sometimes completely abandoning the accent except for a phrase here and there.

The problem is not confined to SL children. It's an RP issue.
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Okay, it's this. Now I have absolutely NO prob with really serious kids like Mari. Or anyone who is a serious child. But no, its not a topic that can be "beaten to death" because it is a VALID group of sl citizens who have a VALID right to be here BUT at a time when Linden Labs is dressing itelf in appropriate corporate garb.

We "play" a game in a very serious venue. LL is a multi-million dollar business that promotes expression and diseminaton of values and pleasures. Choose to be a child and people will focus attention on you. I am not on a high horse - I am concerned with how the sl world is seen by the real world at a time when Lindens desire more investment and inventiveness.

We havent really discussed it at all. We've paid lip-service to it.