My Letter to M Linden About BuilderBot

ROFL data.

Please .. don't you log on and talk to new SL'rs ..

ever?

Any data is useless anyway .. since the majority (as in the largest percentage on a numerical scale) of users never buy Lindens to spend Lindens.

You simply CANT have data that says otherwise because *no one knows* not even Linden Lab how many of the tens of millions of registered accounts were actually really used.

It's not just thelength that tick me off, it's the whole MINE MINE MINE attitude. We all get inspiration from past creations, it's very pretentious to demand full control on present and future iteration of your work when fundamentally you built upon other's work.

I think nobody should pretend to "own" an idea or a creative work like a property, there is a balance to be done. Every discovers and arts are based on something and are potentially derivative work from someone else, but there has to be a limit, otherwise everytime you draw a blue sky you are infrighting on the IP of the first person who drew a blue sky, that's giving too much power to IP.

:0 has anyone ever prevented you from creating or releasing something new, kyrah, with this 'selfish attitude'? reading your note as, say, you created something that was a copied-and-modified derivative of someone else's existing work?

the way you express your frustration, it seems almost like that, but i thought you were known for making your own shtuff. :\ is anyone stopping you?

When I am at the Isle, I get to talk to all kinds of newbies, though they've usually been in SL for more than a few days to be able to find us.



ANY data is useless? ORLY? That sounds like a cop-out to me. :-/

Those who don't participate as part of the SL economy would still generate data, just like everyone else. Data is data. The issue isn't that the data is useless, but it has to be analyzed for meaning.



Not sure how you figure this. They very well have tracking and logs of activity for every user. I mean, where do you think the statistics come from? They certainly aren't just random functions generating funny numbers to display on the login screen.

While I will not agree or disagree with this assessment at this time, it is interesting to note that you are not the only one that holds these views. There is a distinct possibility that IP and copy right may change at some point in the near future as we, the new generation, become the old generation. I do know that I will be keeping an eye on what is developing in Europe:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/22/pirate.party.christian.engstrom/index.html?iref=newssearch

Winning a seat in the Swedish Parliment with 7.1% of the vote may be a harbringer of things to come and it is spreading. RIAA should have known that thier heavy handed tactics tend to elicit a negative response. Unfortunately humanity has a bad habit of not learning from history. Now it is coming to the US:

http://www.pirate-party.us/

While I would not expect any victories in the US any time soon, I would suggest that this may change depending on what Obama's ex-RIAA lawyers do with the Justice Department that they control now.

Um I was actually talking to someone else - They seemd to think that the majority of new users dont use a lot of freebies, which is totally opposite of my experience.



ANY data about spending habits when correlated to the "Majority" of new users is useless. since the subset of those who spend money is the only traceable part when it applies to people not using a lot of freebies.

And that Data is muddled by the number of accounts that do not actively participate.

And the fact that Linden Labs couldn't possibly track freebie use.



That is easy. For the ENTIRE period of time when Traffic/Camp Bots were the rage their entire dataset is corrupt.

Let alone other reasons people have to make accounts which are not the traditional user logs on plays second life, logs off type role.


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A thought on this. It is well known the MAJORITY of people who start SL accounts quit. How can any data be of any reliable value when trying to apply it to a Majority that doesn't even exist to sample.

How can you reliably sample a revolving door with a broken turnstile and apply that to the people buying tickets for shows other people give away for free?

I deal with Data daily in my first life. What LL has access to isn't data, its uncorroborated numbers.

The point she is making, with which I tend to agree, is that we all draw inspiration from the "commons", or popular culture. From our upbringing to our cultural tastes, we all draw inspiration from our experiences. A lot more often than people realize, their creations reflect those experiences. In some cases, the creations are little more than a collage of some aspect of pop culture, more of a "derivative work" of the public commons or "public domain", as it were.

Of course, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with that. That's the nature of creativity and genius. However, it is a cycle, where people build on their experiences to provide experiences to others to serve as their inspiration to create ad infinitum into the future.

The problem with Intellectual Property is that it constrains this natural cycle, allowing people to borrow inspiration from the public commons, and then locking up any/all returns for their sole benefit, pretty much indefinitely, effectively never allowing it to return to enrich the commons. The Framers of the US Constitution understood that there has to be a balance in IP Law. On the one hand, you have to give people incentive to innovate and be creative (which is somewhat incorrect, but still a practical view); on the other, you have to allow the cycle of creativity->inspiration via the medium of the public domain to continue to function. As such, the time frames set forth originally were more than ample for everyone to enjoy the fruits of their creativity, allowing them the requisite incentive to realize their inspirations. In addition, they were short enough to allow to not stall the engine from which everyone drew such inspiration. It also was not long enough to allow people to stifle their desires to continue creating, which humans are so often wont to do.

Unfortunately, in more recent times, a new and powerful entity has arrived on the scene, the Timeless Corporation, which can potentially live indefinitely, many times outliving its originators. Since it is not a person, it cannot be inspired or be creative. However, it can own IP and, more odiously, lobby hard for the right to constrain the cycle (for which it does not participate) indefinitely. So, now we have Copyright terms which are Life+75 years, and likely to go up again the next time Mickey Mouse is in danger of returning to the public domain.

So if data is useless then how did you jump to the conclusion that the majority of people in SL are dishonest? Have we resorted to Quija boards and mediums? Seems crazy that the people preaching the doom and gloom, that the very fear of theft will destroy SL are the very ones propagating the fear with absolutely nothing to back up their assertions.

Excuse me? Exactly who were you talking to? You responded to me, but would you care to show me where I said anything about new users and their usage of freebies? In fact, show me where I said anything about new users? Is this what you are basing your assertion of dishonesty on? That new people do not have money so they use freebies and this naturally makes them dishonest? WOW!!!!!!

UM ..

actually it was YOU who made the claim that the majority of people in SL are HONEST

I just laughed and disagreed. I pointed out WHY I laughed and disagreed. There is no way for you to claim that. I do know nearly everyone I have ever talked to used/uses freebies at some people in their SL career.

And its common knowledge that vast library of freebies that get passed around include many items which are actually stolen.

The burden of proof that the majority of people are honest would actually be on you since you made the claim.

Yet you asked me to provide data, and are again doing so. Where is *YOUR* data? Nowhere of course, because it doesn't exist. It can't exist. The whole idea that it could exist is even funnier than how you are twisting this around.

ROFL

But you made the first baseless claim!!

wow. amazing.


Of course I bring up new users, first because nearly every new user I have ever met has used freebies,

And second since everyone at some point is a New User.

I can state absolutely without any chance of error that the majority of people were once New Users!

Well, you know the rules. If you ONLY want to talk with someone else, use IMs.

As for freebie use by noobs, most of them use stuff out of the Linden Library until they learn WHERE to find freebies. I got a lot of freebies when I joined SL, too (I'm an Archivist, if you know what that means), but I also was buying things from day one, so I am probably an anomaly.

I haven't surveyed enough people directly to have a statistically-significant sample of how much they use freebies vs bought things, or both. However, the more important litmus, to me, is how many of them would avoid certain freebies if they could tell that they were infringing copies (or if they would take them, but then turn around and pay the creator anyway). That one would, I think, be a bit harder to quantify.



I dunno. LL knows the inventory of every user on the grid. It might take a bit of effort, but they could do a statistical analysis of known freebies vs spending on accounts. I mean, accounts with very little other than the Linden Library and who don't participate in the economy would likely be thrown out of the analysis, for example.



That's just another litmus to consider in an analysis. Depending on the factors involved, you can bin them according to a variety of tests.



Sure they could. They know everything about your avatar, your transaction history (all inventory transfers generate log entries), and your inventory. It would be just a matter of extracting the data, and applying the appropriate tests on it.



Traffic/camp bots don't generally buy anything, and their inventory would likely reflect that.



Something which likely can be determined from their database.



That depends on what you are trying to extract from the raw data, doesn't it? Or are you intent on saying their dataset is corrupt because of this? I'm trying to understand what you are getting at, so don't take this as sarcastic; I genuinely want to know.



Well, then they have to corroborate them, no?

Jeez Collette, how does using freebies make a person dishonest? Please explain this to everyone here. I am sure I am not the only one waiting with baited breath now because you just stuck your foot in your mouth and have destroyed any credibility you had. EDIT TO ADD: So I guess by extension you can extrapolate and say that the more money a person has in SL, the more honest they are? I guess this means that that land scammers and all of the other scum in SL are, by default, honest?

Look at the data yourself because I pointed out exactly what to look for. There was a slow down for a couple of weeks after copy bot was released and the resulting mass hysteria and shuttered stores. After that point the amount of $L traded continued to climb at the rate it had before. If the majority of users had been dishonest and resorted to pirating everything they could lay their hands on then this would not have happened.

Yes, but you acted like I had told you personally you didn't get out much.

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As for the Rest .. you are REALLY reaching.

They probably pay a lot of people money to shake their heads and tell them --- well most of the data really cant be corroborated because of all these mitigating factors.

and thus my answer to you is ...

ROFL

I get it!

you can make baseless claims when you call people something GOOD like "Honest"

but if imply that people are something BAD .. then you need data

Okay I'm going to settle this DATA crap right now ...


2-4%!


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Try doing that in some parts of NYC and your car will be gone before you turn around, even if its just sold for the scrap metal.

It's nice out in the middle of a smallish town, but that doesn't scale to the big city.

For the third time I will tell you that I DID PRESENT THE DATA. I told you exactly where to look and exactly what to look for. Can you read these words?

To me the issue is fairly simple.

The tool itself is, yes I'm sure, reproducible, and there are other tools available for people who want to hijack content, however Rezzable has always put forward an identity of honesty and responsibility, and has benefited from the creative work of many.

If - and of course it is now said it won't happen - the BuilderBot were released without any attempt to safeguard the creations of others it would be a petulant gesture indicating a lack of caring at damage likely to happen to creators and consumers, and perhaps it could be thought even a desire to wound. That is at odds with its long-held public face, so I'm glad Rezzable has changed its course.

:0 thanks talarus - appreciate your reply as it may explain to others; pardon if i sound snobbish to say, 'i know all that already' (which does anyways ;0 but i do).

also pardon if i say, i do not entirely think that is what kyrah meant to say, as i've read along her posts always seem to stand out. it seems she has something else on her mind and i wonder what it is. so i would be interested in her reply.

are there court decisions involving commentary or satire that go too harshly in my opinion? absolutely. would a rl or sl tshirt of mickey mouse that says 'f*ck disney' be satirical enough to stand court? probably not, but sure, it would be funny and people would buy it (at least for as long as it was available). i don't agree completely with the disney-fication super-extension of copyright, but i'm not sure that that is the same as comparing to the immediate foreground of new works (yes, 'properties'... they do belong to someone, no matter how much it pains ya.)

see all the probs and none of the benefits that you wish; it's not my favorite thing oftentimes either. but i sure don't sit around b*tchin' 'bout how 'people are stopping people from making their own things'... it sure does not apply to me; i do not own the idea of bodyoils; anyone can make their own as long as it's from scratch.

i'm very glad i have some modicum of protection provided automatically for the works that i produce with my time and hands. i'm not a record company or some entertainment megalomedia group. i'm one person, a simple artist, yet i get to have at least the same basic protections automatically provided to me and my works, and yes even the right to charge as near as little as one quarter at a time to provide it for others to enjoy, in theory, for their entire second-lifetimes.

i just wonder exactly what level this entire discourse is going along. there's the constant mixing oin of levels like 'scr*w corporate rock' (which i agree with ;0), when so many participating here in this world are individual artisans.

oh and p.s., it doesn't seem like many are even interested in allowing one to have the old standard of even 14 years.

you know, i think this gets a bit too much sometimes like some feel 'everyone has to do it their way or else' vibe about inworld issues like ownership, creative domain and profiting from a work. it's not really any diff than rl.

you can, if you so wish in rl, to spend your time making stuff, even making copies of your own stuff, -as long as it's your own stuff,- for free and give it away all you like. -as long as it's your own stuff.-

-or,- you can sell the stuff you make, without any sorta copyright - think artist's/craft fairs with hand-crafted scupltures. (interestingly there will be a mix of photographers, painters, printmakers with numbered limited series, selling 'copies' of their work. gee why aren't they free? they 'didn't have to do anything,' right? it would not surprise me to find one of these photographers or printmakers having copyrights upon their work.)

so/then/or, you can go 'whole hog', if that's really 'how much work' there is to it, and claim your copyright, if you so wish. on top of all the previous steps. depending on the nature of your work, that may be a very wise move.

anyhow. not like it's on topic, but while it seems some are so obsessed with 'creator's rights' somehow in opposition to copyright or ip, i wonder what they heck they are trying to make that 'they can't because someone's stopping them??' citing specific examples (or even a good hypothetical?) or blasting on perhaps about 'consumers rights' too - when these rights are pretty obvious, straightforward and usually not a steppin' on someone's toes? again, specific examples, good hypotheticals? at least, i mean, for inworld/second life. for individual artists. not for corporations.

p.s. sorry, maybe probably absolutely none of this had -anything- to do with builderbot! ;0

But what you told me to look at and for is NOT conclusive data of "honesty"

To claim it is is silly.

I can't speak for Jesse, but I do know that I have made that assertion before. I base it on two things, both of them anecdotal: 1) My experience with people in RL, and 2) my experience with people in SL. While I won't deny that people in both instances CAN be dishonest, my experiences tell me that, in general, most people are honest enough to believe that they would, more often than not, make the right choice when it comes to a test of said honesty.



I think that's a pretty big disconnect. I mean, how can you correlate people's honesty with their possession of freebies? If someone picks up any particular freebie, how can you know that they are being dishonest by doing so if it happens to be one of the infringing copies? How is that resident supposed to know? You're kinda missing a step there of premeditation.

Now, if you INFORM noobs of that fact somehow, and in a way where you can show independent proof that it is, then the question of their "honesty" becomes meaningful (I don't think it should be expected that just any old person walking up to them and saying "that is stolen, you should delete it now" would result in them acquiescing).

Way back in 2006, I picked up a LOT of freebies, and occasionally still troll YadNi's and a few other places for any new ones. Likely, I have at least a few of those infringing copies rattling around in my inventory, but I have no clue how to tell. If I had a way to tell, I would most certainly "dispose" of them (Archivists never really dispose of anything, but I would make ABSOLUTE sure that I never distributed or rezzed it ever again, or I would pay for it first before I did). However, the fact that I may have some infringing content unaware should say NOTHING about my "honesty", to you or anyone.

I'm going to dispense with the multiple silly replies and just say what I think.

the problem is twofold:

1. People want to interact between the other grids (not just Opensim, also Teen Grid and private LL grids) and the main grid. They want to buy products on the main grid and take them to their private grid, or visit private grids wearing them.

2. LL does squat to really tackle copyright infringement.

Builderbot exists because someone wanted to save their sim to an OAR file, which in principle is not a bad thing. However, every twit can resell anything and there is no way to easily distinguish an infringer from the original artists. Most don't really have any brand recognition, even the big stores aren't that famous, and its even worse for small mom and pop shopkeeps.

3. (this isn't important in this thread atm) People can't really move back and forth between the grids because of the inability to keep out griefers, thieves and retards, so they have multiple walled gardens that can't interact with each other. So now we have a Rezzable grid, an OS grid, various LL grids (private ones, Teen, Main) and nobody can really move easily between them, taking their inventory and avatar appearance with them.

So, once more with feeling. Ratings system. We need to sort out how to let sim owners control the content that rezzes in their sims and grids, by rating the content and by extension the avatar. Submission to ratings means that you have to authenticate yourself to the Lab, which means if you're a toad you lose your ratings, have to answer to your own actions (its called responsibility) and thus the thing that distinguishes you as a better merchant.

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-4181

I do not live in a fucking small town. Where did I say that? Where did I say that I lived in an idyllic community? I used to live in South Houston, TX, I lived in the very worst part of St. Petersburg, FL, I have lived in San Antonio, TX, I have lived in Youngstown, OH, Cleveland, OH and now I live 30 minutes South of Washington, DC and work frequently in DC. Each of these places is above the National average in crime and most damn sure are not small towns. On top of that I have done a great deal of world travel to a lot of areas that would make New York City seem like a play ground in comparison. Try spending a month in both New Delhi and Calcutta if you want to know what crime is.

Now a question for you Hapatia. The vast majority of those cars are locked that are stolen in NY, correct? My assertion was that the locks themselves are not the deterrent, if they were then there would be no stolen cars. The deterrent is the threat of punishment. Do you agree with this or not?

Look, just because you got lucky doesn't mean it never happened to you. Check the newspaper for multiple times people have seen their cars driven away while they are inside them... its called carjacking.

Sometimes happens if someone leaves the keys in the ignition.

Just because you've been lucky doesn't mean people should be stupid.

But anyway, I agree that threat of punishment is the real deal, but we don't even have that in SL either. It's looked upon as an insolvable problem with a wink and a nod. Look above your post to see a solution to the "lack of punishment" problem

Proposed by me, of course