My Letter to M Linden About BuilderBot

And yet Skin Creators are still here and making money right? Reputation, a good product and innovation and people like me who will reward this by making a purchase.

EDIT to add: Heck just look at Stroker and the other animators still here and doing business despite the release of the animations. I do not know about the rest of them but I do know for a fact that Stroker isn't still open for business just because it's fun.

But you are making a bait and switch argument

Your claim is most people in Second Life are Basically Honest -

But they aren't, the MAJORITY of people use, or did once use pirated content in Second Life.

Those places survive despite that fact. Because many who DO spend money in Second Life are willing to buy the things they want.


But its actually a Minority of people.

And this jaded viewpoint is based on what data? The volume of $L traded, nor the number of stores that are paying for full sims sure does not bear that out. Go back and look at the historical data. The only blip caused by copy bot was because of hysteria during a relatively short period of time, if not, then the volume should not have picked up again.

If nobody wants your van in Ohio, well, that's great.

My very locked up GMC van was stolen right out of my driveway a few years back, and you *better believe* I lock my house doors.

I live in Orange County, California. At the end of a cul de sac. When perps come tearing off the nearby freeway exit and try to 'hide' in a residential neighbourhood, they often turn down my cul de sac, not realising it dead ends there. At my house.

More than once I've seen three or four thugs lined up on my curb, cut off by the squad cars and being arrested. Were it not for my crummy locks and fenced off back yard, they would have been IN my yard. Or my house.

The thought of parking my new convertible mustang out front, unlocked is just... beyond crazy.

Perhaps you live in some sort of idyllic environment, but wander around LA like that and you are going to get jacked, or worse.

As for guns, having a weapon like you do without close combat training is pretty irresponsible. The crooks have planning and the element of surprise on you, and statistics indicate you are something like eleven times more likely to kill a family member, neighbour or friend than an intruder with your home handgun.

The average casual gun user will typically *miss* their target a number of times, even at point blank range if surprised, and has a better chance of defending themselves with a baseball bat or a broomstick. But yes, I know, all gun owners are really good shots and utterly competent ~ just ask them. Without close range combat training, you are gonna get jumped and see the wrong end of your very own gun.

And yes, 1960's era 4" barrel blue steel 44 magnum here; trained by my WWII era dad, US Navy fashion. But I keep no bullets whatsoever on the property, period. The risk to myself and my family is too great.

I refuse to argue the gun thing though; if you wish to press it go call your local police station and see what they tell you about the matter.

* * * * *

Back to economics, the point is, the grid has been hurt, and hurt bad by this stuff. Already. You choose not to see it ~ you don't mind things being this way. And hey, that's great. For you.

I talk to dozens upon dozens of merchants a week; ripped freebies are killing them. There aren't many people who talk to as many merchants as I do on a regular basis ~ if anyone has data on this, it's me. This is why I go to bat for content creators ~ because I know what hurts them, and I know what's buttering my bread too. If they go under, so do I. Resident rentals alone won't save me.

Sure, some content creators survive in this environment, but just because they aren't all killed off doesn't mean it's cool to keep doing the poisoning.

Second Life content creators aren't the music industry here. They are closer to ebayers and mom and pop businesses. The analogy to the music or film industry isn't even funny.

* * * * *

As to the fuss about copybot ~ you better believe the fuss did some damage. And when you get into large groups of people, this is a known effect.

It's griefing. Instilling fear for fear's sake. There are a dozen ways to offer tools, but offering 'copy anything' tools open source in a world full of script kiddies is not only irresponsible, it's contemptible.

Friends of mine, like Aminom, have had to compete against their own products against rippers on SLExchange; Stroker had to take some guy to court. This is baloney; there's only so many DMCA's one can do against a ripper that keeps popping up on different accounts. Callously putting all the burden on content creators is nonsense.

Why not make a physical master key to all real cars and houses? That's what this is.

* * * * *

Talarus, I agree, it's about policy.

Wait? So you do not see that that was my point exactly??????? How did your van get stolen if it was locked?

But you are not refusing to argue that because this is exactly what you just did. You can not argue something for 3 paragraphs and then say "I refuse to argue the gun thing though". Unless of course you are saying that I am going to give my viewpoint but I refuse to acknowledge what anyone else has to say.

Now as to the rest. Did you even attempt to try Greenlife as I suggested. You have been arguing that it is not easy to steal content and that this will make it much, much, easier. We have been saying that this is not going to make any difference, that the gates have always been wide open and that you are wrong. It has always been extremely easy to steal content but you refuse to entertain that thought or try it to see. Are you afraid that you will see that you are wrong, because believe me, you will?

You may agree with Talarus but he does not agree with you. Go back and read his statements again. We are the ones that have been saying it is policy and enforcement, not the ban of tools that LL has said are not against the TOS.

the last rumor i heard was that the DMCA will no longer get involved in matters regarding copybot and virtual copyright issues. correct me if i am wrong, but if LL says they are legal, but an individual uses it illegally, why even allow it in the first place? it has been proven in the past that it will be used by individuals who could care less about copyrights and virtual content rights, so why even allow these type of programs on the grid?

keep in mind also those who are just joining SL have no clue that skins and or clothing items they bought from a "freebie" vendor was a rip-off.

what she said

how do i know that perhaps the skin/shape/clothing isn't outdated? and said content creator offered it as a freebie at some point or other and its just been passed down and around?

and i'm one of the ones that often goes and seeks out the newer stuff put out by some of the best stuff i find (for free). i'll go to properties if i must.

"new to sl" ppl are sorta less likely to use copybots and what not anyways, are they not? hell, when i first started....i didn't even know i had to start with a bald head!

The fact that my locked van was stolen, doesn't mean that leaving it unlocked would have helped anything ~ I would have lost ALL the cars following your approach in short order. Does this require explanation?

And no, it's not about 'being afraid of being wrong.' Your view is entirely self fulfilling. I am quite aware of how prevalent this culture of entitlement and ease of theft has become. It's 'give an inch, take a mile' time. Everyone's doing it, that makes it okay! Don't lock your cars and houses, it's going to happen anyway! Well, in that case, of course it will.

If we follow your path, the economy will be *destroyed*. At which point you will say it was inevitable and be proud of how 'right you are.'

But this is nonsense. Stealing is *far* more prevalent now than ever it has been. I remember an SL before camping and bots existed ~ and funny, even our service provider actually decided to do something about those.

Given some time, they may well take the piracy more seriously. The reason Cory came out with a statement that pirating copybotters would be permabanned, is because there was a huge outcry against it. And a very good thing there was.

This isn't about tools. It's possible to make tools to back up our own stuff and respect the permissions system built into the grid. We don't have to all slide down to the lowest common denominator. This is not inherently a third world country of rampant corruption and theft ~ it only is if we collectively choose to take that path. I know that just about all the content creators on my estate would vote with their feet and their dollars against such a thing.

* * * * *

And if you thought for a second, you'd realise I don't put my avatar on third party clients ~ nor my alt, which also has some critical content attached to it. Of course, you might do that with an avatar which several hundred people entrust with 160,000+ annual cashflow, but I wouldn't. It's a really, really stupid idea. Small odds of trouble, but potentially catastrophic for the entire estate. And my alt controls the Caledon Oxbridge Gateway contents. No thanks.

Sure, it's easy to copy data with whatever client, everyone knows. But it can be made a lot harder, just like gambling, sexual ageplay, scam banking, botting, camping, adfarming, parcel extortion and so forth.

You may not have a lot of respect for the years of work that tens of thousands of other people have done, and that's fine. You don't have to. But at the same time, don't expect me to roll over just because easy theft is 'inevitable.'

Well I've said my points three times over now, and pointless debate for its own sake is a waste of time.

Enjoy your combination of unlocked cars, open doors and lethal force ~ I can't possibly begin to explain what I think of that, and it's probably best not said on this forum.

I happen to agree with this. There's no controlled experiment possible to prove a causal relationship, but it is my distinct impression that growth in the SL economy slows as copying becomes more common. Moreover, the innovation of in-world content declines. The entire platform's future is jeopardized by this malaise, merchants *and* artists.

It has *not* always been easy to copy. The introduction of libsecondlife-based CopyBot made it much easier than GLintercept and prim mirror/copy scripts. There is no question that "BuilderBot" would make wholesale copying even easier--that is, after all, its raison d'être.

If widely available, BuilderBot *will* hurt Second Life. Merchants and artists.

---=---

I happen to despise the DMCA. As wielded by the RL media associations it stifles innovation. Without it, however, innovation in Second Life is strangled. It is the only viable means available to protect SL content. LL is extremely lucky DMCA exists; otherwise they would have to choose between administering their own content "court" or losing any in-world economy at all. Not nearly so many people are going to shell out hefty fees for virtual land if nobody can recover any of that cost.

And yet, Linden Lab's behavior shows no recognition that its balance sheet completely depends on DMCA content protection.

I'm sure it would be inconvenient for Mitch to admit this to Larry. I'm sure he'd rather it weren't the case. Tough sh!t, Mitch. It's what you built here. Deal.

---=---

Hence, it's in LL's best interest to use whatever influence it can to discourage distribution and use of tools that make content infringement easier, and at the same time to increase its responsiveness and proactive intervention to detect and prosecute content theft when it occurs.

I tried copying your letter but I kept getting a "you cannot modify this object" error.

LL's brand of idealism is at odds with its business model in a great many ways. In fact it's at odd with the whole concept of commercial success. There are recent indicators that they want commercial success, yet they don't believe in the things that will allow it to happen.

Yes, all the newbies with no clue on anything simply looking for freebies to look nice and stick to them when they finally found them will know that... If the freebie vendor puts a large sign above it saying "Nice freebies created from stolen content!" they maybe would, but unless that will happen they simply won't know.

You know what Des? You portray yourself as the ultimate good guy in SL. But if someone, anyone breaks the mold and instead of gushing over another Demond post about how beautifully written it is, disagree with a point, then your true colors come out. You did this with Feldspar Millgrove's well thought out and short post:


Unfairly portraying his post in a way that was completely dismissive of his thoughts with this:
And you did in your replies to me. Are you saying that your original response to my unlocked car was not meant to be dismissive and can come off as insulting? Believe me when I say that I have never lived in what could be portrayed as an idyllic environment. Then you did it again with the gun reply even though my original post had nothing really to do with this thread except as a jovial response to Talarus. Your 3 paragraph mini rant can be read as nothing but insulting, just as you intended. And then you end it all with a really crap statement like this:
All I can say is that you really need to get over yourself. If you do not want to entertain discourse then do not come here and post and then expect no one to dare to disagree with you.

EDIT TO ADD: And are you sure, really sure about this BS?:
"and statistics indicate you are something like eleven times more likely to kill a family member, neighbour or friend than an intruder with your home handgun." Because that is an urban myth that has been circulating since I was a kid and there have never, ever been any real statistics to back it up, not in the light that it is being portrayed here. Yes people do use guns to kill each other, but are you saying you do not have bullets because you can not trust yourself to keep from killing your spouse, a child or a neighbor in a rage?

Louis Lamour, who along with being a very prolific fictional author, was also a noted historian for all things western, once stated that the very idea that a gang or ruffian could move in and take over a town in the old west was complete BS. Along with the flood of men that had returned from the civil war as expert marksman, the majority were trained from youth to be a crack shot and to make each and every shot count.

I have no need to go down to the police station and ask as my Grand Father was Deputy Sheriff of San Patricio County, Tx, my Dad was a Reserve Deputy and my cousin has been a Texas Highway Patrolman for over 15 years. Your father may not have properly trained you how to handle and shoot that handgun but my family did. If you want to learn how to properly defend your family, then buy the bullets and start practicing. A few years of an allowance that included 100 rounds of 22. caliber ammo a week and then graduating to a Smith & Wesson Model K22 with adjustable sights and trigger and 200-300 rounds per week for a few more years will correct any misgivings you may have about your marksmanship.

Now if you want to continue to discuss in a friendly manner instead of stating your opinion and then saying you are not going to argue about it or insulting anyone that disagrees then let's do it.

Well thought out? How does it differ from what we've heard a thousand times before? That is, how is it "well thought out" and not "parroted"? How is Desmond's portrayal unfair, or even inaccurate?

Well thought out would be to introduce something not heard before, or explain something in a way that brings new understanding. Did you think the "easily circumvented" and "no technical solution" argument was going to elicit a "OMG, I never thought of that!" response?

To put something in quotes using words you didn't exactly use is not an unfair portrayal. It's a way of telling you that we've heard it before, and no matter what words you choose, if you make the same tired argument, "total security is impossible, so let's have none" is how it's going to be heard.

Where did Feldspar say THAT? Where did Feldspar say that we should do away with the permissions system. There is only one person who made a statement in this thread saying that we should do away with the rules and everyone else, on both sides, have said that the rules are good but that they do need to be enforced.

An idiotic statement was made that said that things can not currently be copied easily and he, along with myself and Talarus responded to THAT.

I am glad to know you live in such a nice neighbourhood Jesse. Reminds me of the area I grew up in, where you could leave the door key hanging on a piece of string to pull through the letter box.

Now I live in an environment where expensive cars are stolen to order by criminal gangs and your van, locked or open, would be vandalised by the local yobs. Either way, it just puts up insurance costs and causes the law abiding majority a lot of hassel. Things like locks and burglar alarms do have some deterent effect - they make theft a bit harder and discourage opportunistic theft.

Whether you lose money because of the use of a copybot tool, or because of the associated hysteria - it is still loss of money - and it is loss of money that causes businesses to go under.


But...

The most significant thing (IMO) is how disheartened the creators of digital content can feel. You lose the desire to create when theft is so easy. It is the content creators that put the icing on the cake. If they give up and go away, for whatever reason, we all become poorer. The SL experience becomes poorer all round.

Which was exactly my point and actually is exactly what I stated, correct?

No one is stating that content theft is not happening and I can not imagine anyone not feeling for someone who has been the victim of theft, either here or in real life. What I and others have stated repeatedly is that Builder Bot will not make a difference and that there has been no real security in SL. But SL has survived and people continue to make money just as people will reopen a convenience store in RL after a robbery. You do not prevent the robbery buy closing the store or by trying to outlaw every single item that can possibly be used to rob that store. Instead, you enforce the laws you have, you send criminals to jail and remind everyone that there will be repercussions.

His goodness isn't the crux of his authority. He speaks as someone who is successful in in-world business and who has a large stake in intellectual property.

Then instead of discourse, why turn and instead insult and be dismissive of others input? Read his gun response closely Anya. Are you saying that this was what could be deemed a "friendly" response?

I think you are effectively saying something like "survival of the fittest", Jesse... and, of course, it would be good if we had effective laws and law enforcement. Some of the least fit people still create beautiful things and they may give up and not "re-open a convenience store". The artistic will to create is both paradoxically strong and fragile.

If someone steals my digital creations, it is very difficult for me to prove that they were mine originally. The law does not protect me very well in RL or SL - so I have to be as pragmatic as possible and take whatever deterent actions that I can. I see it more like the Insurance Company that gives a discount if you have a burglar alarm situation, rather than a "you can't prevent all crime" one.

I'd argue that it has happened. How many great new creators have come along since copybot, and how many have left? If SL was a thriving platform for content creators you'd expect the balance to be in favor of new opportunities being taken advantage of.

Of course I don't think it's copybot that is the culprit, but I don't think you can say SL is thriving despite copybot when it is not, in fact, thriving.

Edit: To clarify, I believe Desmond's "less vibrancy in the market and the whole thing stalling out" has happened. I think there are more important factors involved than copybot, but I don't think you can say SL is thriving for content creators despite copybot (or ignoring copybot), either. I don't think SL is thriving for content creators.

You can also not say "sl is not thriving because of copybot" when, in fact, it wouldn't do much better with no copybot around.

The last year of LL policy changes and price hikes has been enough to drive the most patient, most passionate SL merchant away.

I didn't say he was friendly or even non-insulting. I did not, in fact, read anything about guns, and don't care to.

I'm saying his opinion on these matters counts a lot because he is speaking on things in which he has a lot at stake and in matters in which he has been successful, and not because he's a good guy.

I don't have Phil on ignore because he occasionally speaks about things for which he has a clue. He's very good at search optimization and he's knowledgeable about bots. That his position on these things is deplorable doesn't negate the fact that his position is important.

And so I listen to what Desmond says. He speaks from a position of import. If he's also a good guy, and if I also agree with him, then that's just gravy.

That's not what I said, though, is it? In fact I said copybot was not the culprit. I fully agree with you that there are other reasons, though we disagree what those reasons are.