My Letter to M Linden About BuilderBot
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 14:07
I've just sent the following email to [email]m@lindenlab.com[/email] (I hope that's not a bit barrel) concerning Rezzable's threats to release BuilderBot. I urge everyone who is concerned about this issue to similarly contact Linden Lab--whether it be via email, concierge, or office hours. Keep in mind that only fairly junior Lindens will ever read the forum discussions on this issue. From: someone Subject: Protecting Second Life Content from Copying Tools Mr. Kingdon, On Monday of this week, Rezzable (creators of the well known "Greenies" and "Dark Swan" sims) announced that they were planning on releasing a tool they called BuilderBot that would "will copy an entire SL Sim and create a OAR file that can be uploaded into any OpenSim grid", and claimed their tool would ignore the Second Life Permissions system: http://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/builderbot-how-best-release-it What Rezzable has threatened to release is essentially "copybot" on an industrial scale. Linden Lab has previously stated that, "the use of CopyBot or any other external application to make unauthorized duplicates within Second Life will be treated as a violation of Section 4.2 of the Second Life Terms of Service and may result in your account(s) being banned from Second Life" ( https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2006/11/15/use-of-copybot-and-similar-tools-a-tos-violation ) While nearly uniform community outrage has prompted Rezzable to backtrack some from their initial plans ( http://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/reviewing-builderbot-release ), they are still not serious about protecting the work of Second Life content creators, saying if "DRM checks can be added without too much effort or complication, we should be able to add that to the software offering". I urge Linden Lab to make a strong public statement to the effect that distribution or use of any "BuilderBot" type tool that does not respect the Second Life permission system is a serious violation of the Second Life Terms of Service and will result in appropriate disciplinary action—and to back up such policies with appropriate and public action. In addition, to be taken seriously on this and similar matters, Linden Lab should also devote more resources to resolving existing DMCA claims. As it stands, valid DMCA claims are being ignored or sent back to the filers for specious reasons. Please understand that the content sales business drives the entire Second Life economy, providing funds for people to pay tier—both directly to Linden Lab and indirectly via rent paid to private estate owners. Without a healthy content sector, Second Life’s economy will falter, and adversely affect Linden Lab’s bottom line. Sincerely, Carl Metropolitan Executive Director, NCI/New Citizens Incorporated (RL: Carl Henderson) [email]j.carl.henderson@gmail.com[/email] |
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Maggie McArdle
FIOS hates puppies
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 2,855
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07-22-2009 14:58
Anyway to make this a petition?
it would carry much more weight.
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There's, uh, probably a lot of things you didn't know about lindens. Another, another interesting, uh, lindenism, uh, there are only three jobs available to a linden. The first is making shoes at night while, you know, while the old cobbler sleeps.You can bake cookies in a tree. But the third job, some call it, uh, "the show" or "the big dance," it's the profession that every linden aspires to.
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Anti Antonelli
Deranged Toymaker
Join date: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,091
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07-22-2009 15:09
From: Maggie McArdle Anyway to make this a petition?
it would carry much more weight. I disagree. A bunch of individual comments demonstrates that people care enough about this to spend a little time typing out an email, as opposed to simply clicking "yes" on a petition. Just don't simply copy/paste, and resist the urge to send a flaming rant as those tend to harm the credibility of the sender and probably all start to look the same after a while.
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Designer of sensual, tasteful couple's animations - for residents who take their leisure time seriously.  http://slurl.com/secondlife/Brownlee/203/110/109/ 
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Maggie McArdle
FIOS hates puppies
Join date: 8 May 2006
Posts: 2,855
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07-22-2009 15:14
okay.
while i don't build in Sl, i do support Content Rights, therefore will do my part.
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There's, uh, probably a lot of things you didn't know about lindens. Another, another interesting, uh, lindenism, uh, there are only three jobs available to a linden. The first is making shoes at night while, you know, while the old cobbler sleeps.You can bake cookies in a tree. But the third job, some call it, uh, "the show" or "the big dance," it's the profession that every linden aspires to.
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Lord Sullivan
DTC at all times :)
Join date: 15 Dec 2005
Posts: 2,870
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07-22-2009 15:18
From: Maggie McArdle Anyway to make this a petition?
it would carry much more weight. Just like they listened to a well organized action over the Adult changes with good suggestions etc. and as always LL does as it pleases Personally i think that they will say: "the use of CopyBot or any other external application to make unauthorized duplicates within Second Life will be treated as a violation of Section 4.2 of the Second Life Terms of Service and may result in your account(s) being banned from Second Life" but that will be about it because people still use copybot tools and as long as you do not use then to make unauthorized duplicates you do not break the TOS and those that want to use it for the wrong reasons don't care about the TOS anyway. Just my thoughts though 
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Independent Shopping for Second Life residents from established and new merchants. http://slapt.me  slapt.me - In-World HQ http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bastet/123/118/26
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 15:24
From: Maggie McArdle Anyway to make this a petition?
it would carry much more weight. I think that many individually written letters make a stronger statement. Also, if you own land holdings in Second Life, I suggest mentioning it--and and point out how a hit to creators will affect your land holdings--and the tier you pay LL monthly. Also--I am assuming [email]m@lindenlab.com[/email] is a valid address. I've gotten no rejection emails yet. If anyone can think of other Lindens who should be addressed, please followup with their names and/or emails. |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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07-22-2009 15:25
Linden Labs position on these kinds of tools has always been that they are legitimate, and the correct response to abuse is through the DMCA. I believe that is still the correct response. If an OpenSim operator does not respect a DMCA takedown notice, then you are entirely within your rights to take it upstream to his or her service provider. A few such notices and they WILL start paying attention.
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 15:31
From: Argent Stonecutter Linden Labs position on these kinds of tools has always been that they are legitimate, and the correct response to abuse is through the DMCA. I believe that is still the correct response. If an OpenSim operator does not respect a DMCA takedown notice, then you are entirely within your rights to take it upstream to his or her service provider. A few such notices and they WILL start paying attention. Actually, the position is, "the use of CopyBot or any other external application to make unauthorized duplicates within Second Life will be treated as a violation of Section 4.2 of the Second Life Terms of Service and may result in your account(s) being banned from Second Life" https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2006/11/15/use-of-copybot-and-similar-tools-a-tos-violation |
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Tali Rosca
Plywood Whisperer
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 767
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07-22-2009 15:45
So are you urging them to change the ToS? (Obviously, the current ToS is clear on the program being legal; the use being illegal).
What, exactly, should it then be changed to? "Possessing a program which sufficiently easily can be used to violate IP rights will be considered a violation and can lead to bans"?
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,855
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07-22-2009 15:49
Well written Carl.
Good Job.
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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07-22-2009 15:51
From: Carl Metropolitan Actually, the position is, "the use of CopyBot or any other external application to make unauthorized duplicates within Second Life will be treated as a violation of Section 4.2 of the Second Life Terms of Service and may result in your account(s) being banned from Second Life" Unfortunately that doesn't address making unauthorized duplicates outside second life, whereas the DMCA does. |
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Carl Metropolitan
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Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 15:57
From: Argent Stonecutter Unfortunately that doesn't address making unauthorized duplicates outside second life, whereas the DMCA does. LL has no control over what happens outside of Second Life. Due to the relative sizes and economic importance of the SL grid versus the various OpenSim grids, the primary damage facing creators would be from people using BuilderBot to copy a SL sim, then rezzing that sim in OpenSim, then taking selected content from that sim back into SL. Edited to add: I recognize creators do face economic damages from unauthorized copies of their work on third-party grids, as well. Those are just dwarfed by the damages that Linden Lab has some control over. |
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Carl Metropolitan
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Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 15:57
From: Tali Rosca So are you urging them to change the ToS? (Obviously, the current ToS is clear on the program being legal; the use being illegal).
What, exactly, should it then be changed to? "Possessing a program which sufficiently easily can be used to violate IP rights will be considered a violation and can lead to bans"? I'm asking them to publicly commit to enforcing their rules as they exist now (if you use such a program to violate the copyrights of SL creators, that should also be a violation). I am also asking them to sanction the creators of BuilderBot should they release it as initially described (though who knows what it will look like when/if Rezzable gets around to releasing it), or any other program designed to bypass SL's permission system. I thought I explained this in my letter: "I urge Linden Lab to make a strong public statement to the effect that distribution or use of any "BuilderBot" type tool that does not respect the Second Life permission system is a serious violation of the Second Life Terms of Service and will result in appropriate disciplinary action—and to back up such policies with appropriate and public action. In addition, to be taken seriously on this and similar matters, Linden Lab should also devote more resources to resolving existing DMCA claims. As it stands, valid DMCA claims are being ignored or sent back to the filers for specious reasons." |
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RobbyRacoon Olmstead
Red warrior is hungry!
Join date: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,821
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07-22-2009 15:58
The position is, as I read it, that the tools are legitimate. Using them to make *unauthorized* duplicates is a TOS violation. . |
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 16:07
From: RobbyRacoon Olmstead The position is, as I read it, that the tools are legitimate. Using them to make *unauthorized* duplicates is a TOS violation. That is why I also requested (and urge others to do the same) that: "In addition, to be taken seriously on this and similar matters, Linden Lab should also devote more resources to resolving existing DMCA claims. As it stands, valid DMCA claims are being ignored or sent back to the filers for specious reasons." |
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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07-22-2009 16:11
From: Carl Metropolitan LL has no control over what happens outside of Second Life. Of course not, that was kind of my point. LL doesn't. The DMCA does. From: someone Due to the relative sizes and economic importance of the SL grid versus the various OpenSim grids, the primary damage facing creators would be from people using BuilderBot to copy a SL sim, then rezzing that sim in OpenSim, then taking selected content from that sim back into SL. OK, fair enough, but how are they taking that content back again? Through yet another copybot tool, I imagine. BuilderBot is at most a secondary component of that process. Its main goal and thrust is to move content from SL to OpenSim grids, strengthening those grids and making them more attractive to potential residents. Personally I think the major threat to creators (and to LL) would be the use of BuilderBot to eliminate one of SL's primary advantages over OpenSim... the resident-created content... without establishing the kind of economy that would reward them for moving there. In any case, going back to your original letter: From: someone I urge Linden Lab to make a strong public statement to the effect that distribution or use of any "BuilderBot" type tool that does not respect the Second Life permission system is a serious violation of the Second Life Terms of Service and will result in appropriate disciplinary action—and to back up such policies with appropriate and public action. Distribution or use of Builderbot is not and should not be considered a violation of the ToS, and more than CopyBot or other applications that *may be used* to bypass permissions are. Actually USING them to bypass permissions, that's a different matter entirely. In addition, doing so to transfer content outside the SL service is a violation of the copyright grant that all content creators give to Linden Labs, which leaves them free to DMCA the suckers, their sims, and their little dog too. |
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Nyoko Salome
kittytailmeowmeow
Join date: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
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07-22-2009 16:16
one thing i've not been clear on - can this tool allow -anyone- to copy -any- sim they wish?? :\ that would be -very- disconcerting.
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 Nyoko's Bodyoils @ Nyoko's Wears http://slurl.com/secondlife/Centaur/126/251/734/ http://home.comcast.net/~nyoko.salome2/nyokosWears/index.html "i don't spend nearly enough time on the holodeck. i should go there more often and relax." - deanna troi
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Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
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07-22-2009 16:17
From: Argent Stonecutter OK, fair enough, but how are they taking that content back again? Through yet another copybot tool, I imagine. BuilderBot is at most a secondary component of that process. The content that BuilderBot (as initially described) would created on OpenSim would be a full permissions duplicate of the SL content copied. A legitimate backup tool (such as Second Inventory, as an example) could then be used to replicate the content back into Second Life. That's where the primary danger exists for SL creators. |
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Carl Metropolitan
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Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
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07-22-2009 16:19
From: Nyoko Salome one thing i've not been clear on - can this tool allow -anyone- to copy -any- sim they wish?? :\ that would be -very- disconcerting. It's not clear. Rezzable has indicated they may be going back on their initial plans--or maybe not. http://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/builderbot-how-best-release-ithttp://rezzable.com/blog/rightasrain-rimbaud/reviewing-builderbot-releaseI would suggest reading those postings. Your guess on what they will ultimately do is as good as mine. |
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Jesse Barnett
500,000 scoville units
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 4,160
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07-22-2009 16:19
From: Carl Metropolitan LL has no control over what happens outside of Second Life. Due to the relative sizes and economic importance of the SL grid versus the various OpenSim grids, the primary damage facing creators would be from people using BuilderBot to copy a SL sim, then rezzing that sim in OpenSim, then taking selected content from that sim back into SL. Seems like a lot of hoops to go through? Why do all of that when all anyone has to do is just make a copy of the items they want with the tool already out there. Outrage and yet Prim Mirror did not kill the grid. Bigger outrage when Copy Bot was released and yet all of the doom sayers have been proven wrong. Another outrage now with Builder Bot and yet it will still have no impact on the grid. The majority of users are honest. The minority already have all the tools they need, tools more focused and easier to use, to steal content. Legitimate use of Builder Bot solves problems LL has been unwilling to face and it's illegitimate use will once again have little impact. I will give the same example and challenge that I did in the other thread: Download and install Greenlife viewer, right click on a complex build that you created and hit "More" twice until you get to the "Export" option and click it. As soon as you name the file it is done and it is in your computer. The other tools out there do it just as fast and easily as this without regard to permissions. Builder Bot is not going to be easier then this.................. Linden Labs stance has always been that these are tools with legitimate uses and it is the illegitimate use that is the only problem. Builder Bot is not the problem, the problem is Linden Labs not offering their own solution for us to backup or migrate our data just as easily. That is where the outrage should be directed.
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I (who is a she not a he) reserve the right to exercise selective comprehension of the OP's question at anytime. From: someone I am still around, just no longer here. See you across the aisle. Hope LL burns in hell for archiving this forum
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Carl Metropolitan
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07-22-2009 16:22
From: Argent Stonecutter Distribution or use of Builderbot is not and should not be considered a violation of the ToS, and more than CopyBot or other applications that *may be used* to bypass permissions are. I disagree. I believe at some point, LL needs to say, "you may have the legal right to distribute this, but we don't want you around if you choose to do so." |
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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07-22-2009 16:24
Good job, Carl.
I'm trying out a different angle here, before I write it up. (By the way, is email as effective as snail mail? For contacting government officials, there's just no substitute for a hunk of dead tree, but for a tech company, I'm not so sure.)
What I'm thinking about is to urge LL to vigorously defend its own intellectual property, in the form of skins, textures, animations, etc., that are being transferred to other grids in violation of the license grant in the ToS, by pursuing DMCA claims against the operators of the violating grids, and to do that explicitly to reinforce the seriousness of theft of any content from SL's grid, not just that belonging to LL.
But would that backfire? Would that just cause the other grids to focus on stealing non-LL content?
Also, I get it that, for now, the big threat is copying back into SL. On the other hand, a well-placed shot over the bow of Rezzable's grid might convince Himoff to get a lawyer who's not a complete imbecile, and back down from the brink of releasing this thing at all.
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Dakota Tebaldi
Voodoo Child
Join date: 6 Feb 2008
Posts: 1,873
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07-22-2009 16:34
Carl, your arguments and material at the links you've provided have convinced me that the single, sole, solitary "good way" this tool can be used is immensely overshadowed by all the harmful effects all the bad ways it can be used may have. This horrible lopsided liability has prompted me to agree with you, and I'm going to write an email to LL as well. I suppose the Orca makes me a content creator in SL, even if only a very small fish compared to others.
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"...Dakota will grow up to be very scary... but in a HOT and desireable kind of way." - 3Ring Binder "I really do think it's a pity he didnt "age" himself to 18." - Jig Chippewa 
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Destiny Niles
Registered User
Join date: 23 Aug 2006
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07-22-2009 16:47
I wonder what will be the most stolen sim? When someone find out tell me where the original is so I can go visit it.
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Tali Rosca
Plywood Whisperer
Join date: 6 Feb 2007
Posts: 767
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07-22-2009 16:52
From: Carl Metropolitan I'm asking them to publicly commit to enforcing their rules as they exist now (if you use such a program to violate the copyrights of SL creators, that should also be a violation). No disagreement there. From: Carl Metropolitan
I am also asking them to sanction the creators of BuilderBot should they release it as initially described (though who knows what it will look like when/if Rezzable gets around to releasing it), or any other program designed to bypass SL's permission system.
This is where things get fuzzy. There is no grounds in the current ToS for sanctioning, since the wording clearly talks about the *use* for *unauthorized* duplicates. So for LL to release a statement to that effect, they would have to update the ToS first. Your wording "designed to bypass SL's permission system" is a fair bit clearer, but at the same time more subjective, since the counterargument is that the tool is *designed* to backup builds. The parallel is that media players are *designed* to play music, but you *can* copy the files they generate illegally. From: Carl Metropolitan I disagree. I believe at some point, LL needs to say, "you may have the legal right to distribute this, but we don't want you around if you choose to do so." Clearly stated opinion about a wanted change in LL's behaviour, and here we can simply agree to disagree. I believe this is the wrong way to go. Down this path lies failed DRM systems and rootkits harassing legitimate users. Also, you still need to define where "some point" is. As has been mentioned, there are lots of opensource programs out there which can do backup. By nature, they contain all the code needed to rip full objects. To restate my question from another thread: Is it, for example, enough that the immediately available exe-file has a permission check, even if it is potentially trivial to remove from the available source code? As a side note, while I violently disagree with the US laws on this issue, ignoring permissions may actually already be covered as a *criminal* offense under the DMCA, since it could be considered "circumvention of DRM", which is illegal for pretty much any purpose, even backup. |
