My Letter to M Linden About BuilderBot

Well, there have been a number of specific instances documented by people who had their content replicated on third party grids. I have not seen anyone report using (or even trying to use) the DMCA against the guilty parties. Until there's been a failure of the existing remedies in court, why start on a new one?
Illegal, now? You want to reverse the Betamax decision?

I am NOT interested in filing DCMAs. I'm not interested in even attempting to figure out of my content has been illegally brought to some other platform. I am interested in protecting my content as much as possible.

Please don't take this personally, and I hope you can see the facetiousness of the implication between you and I ... but why would you support the introduction of a tool that can copy content you do not own, unless that's exactly what you intend to do with it? I do not WANT anyone to have that capability. That's a fairly simple stance.



This isn't television. There is no time-shifting here. You're not recording SL to be played back later.

I'm not "supporting the introduction of" anything. I'm arguing:

1. Going down the path of *banning* such tools is dangerous.
2. It's also ineffective.

Unfortunately, that's not an option, even if LL were to go down the path of putting strong DRM and a rootkit in the client, people would still be able to write and distribute easy-to-use tools that would rip content right out of it.

The circumstances don't have to be 100% identical for the analogy to make sense. Any substantial non-infringing use, such as the one it was created for, serves just as well.

Unfortunately there is absolutely no way to stop prims and textures from being copied. There are already several tools that can do it easier and in a more focused manner then Builder Bot. The simulator software is not setup to be able to detect if anything has been copied and there are no real, permanent changes that can be made to SL to stop it in the future.

There is also no way to make Copy Bot or Builder bot or any other tool illegal and even if that was possible, then there would be no way to determine if it was running on a computer unless SL sent out a rootkit, which no one should want. IF SL DID use a rootkit then there is still no way to keep someone from cracking it.

The best any of us can do is educate ourselves, to learn that the permissions system is porous with no way to fix it and that we should instead be trying to calm the hysteria. People do have content ripped, but you can survive an incident. Keep innovating, offer good customer service on a unique product line and people will continue to patronize your store. There is nothing that can be created that will make it worse then it already is.

;0 at the point that rl trekkian replicators come into being, the entire world's concepts of 'economy' would turn upside-down (and probably for the better). then sl's would more easily follow, if we truly enter an age of 'no poverty, all prosperity' (in theory; hypothesizing anymore on that tangent is useless to the here and now of the thread and general topic).

until then, the rw is a different game, and sl would not be nearly as vibrant if it did not provide nearly all the rw-like liberties to pursue 'any game you wish in here' (again, leave aside arguments over banks/casinos/adult content). yes, paying bills can be a 'game'; it sure feels like it sometimes... ;0 but it is nobody's 'business,' really, to tell another how to protect one's own 'game', their own 'business. (as long as they're running a proper business and doing all they can to best serve their patrons and the community.)

there was once a thread where desmond very open-heartedly offered up a good amount of his numbers about his business' income/outflow. it is much, much, -much- more, i'm sure, than his own net from whatever's leftover... if it is generous enough that it affords him some nice toys, that fills me with a joyous feeling, not a spiteful one. and i never made that kind of money myself! ;0 and considering how badly this summer's slump is going, i am constantly making less and less and less... at best i was always only at subsistence income. (as many other creators have had to do lately, i've had to take up part-time rl again, and i was fortunate to have something to go back to, where they needed help.)

i do agree that an honest person can erroneously - or even consciously but unknowingly - obtain and trade 'free stuff' that, as far as they know, 'is free' (and no, probably not a single one of us in this thread, forum, or country, in this modern age does not also happen to have some illegal mp3s, movies, copies of articles for last semester's paper - that is symptom of the age and not of character). then later discover that that is not the case; often yes, they can become patrons of the creator - as long as they ever bother to search and then visit. i still have a few thieves to refile (they're almost always repeat offenders anymore, so yes i get irritated by the lab's 'slap on the wrist' approach), but honestly i have had very few new reports come to me this year - maybe one or two (and an occassional false alarm, lol once my own mistake regarding a semi-transparent skin - embarrassing story ;0). so i honestly cannot say how much 'problem' i have anymore with thieved sales or free trading... i just don't have much evidence of it anymore. (i won't stop watching out for it though.)

still - no, i've no hard numbers to provide, at least ones i'd feel comfortable providing, but considering how well my sales were once upon a time, before 10k online was even common... and yet now, with the usual 60k (i've noticed it dropping off some from the 80-70ks we were getting back in the spring), my sales have dropped precipitously, and i daresay so far out of balance with the logon count, that 'it just doesn't make sense.' even with the current economic climates... it just seems off by so much that it makes me scratch my head (while trying not to pull any hair out ;0).

then, i remind myself - the economy has been so stale for so long, long before anyone on tv bothered to recognize it. for at least four or five years around my rw area, houses, cars for sale, yard sales lol at ever-increasing rates. and then, just this month since independence day, an -explosion- in houses for sale, -households- for sale. perhaps not coincidentally, my own sales plummeted from 'poor' to 'near flatline.'

this lack of extra 'mad money' the public has to play with is bound to affect sl's economy, for the negative... however 'virtual' all currency is, without rl mon coming in in all its various ways, there simply is no sl economy. no wonder this is driving so much fire here in this thread for both sides of the arguments, free vs. commercial. free is great for a poor but still-entertainment-seeking public. commercial is great (if not a necessity) for artists and programmers to get something back for the work they provide the public.

i guess my final thought, though too rand-ian, is that artists will approach sl with a greatly different perspective, more and more 'copy' tools go around. this isn't the fault of the good public, but of thieves and, essentially, their vocal 'defenders of their rights'. (my question would be, lol, if you are such big 'defenders of human rights,' aren't their bigger fish to fry in the world along those lines; do you not care to apply your energies there?) of course yes, if you can afford to, you can 'protect yourself' with your very own closed island, or some completely private opensim setup, but that's a bit haves and have-nots for such a world promised for such egalitarianism?

well, yes, you can 'blame phillip, blame the lab' for making the initial decision to be 'open' and not proprietary. sure that wouldn't have stopped texture-thieving, but would have put any world-copy abilities strictly under our control (and, unfortunately for them, their control too; they'd 'always have access' and have to live with that version of conspiracy-theorizing). but instead, they left it to us to argue about. lol, again you can thank them or curse them, but i'm sure in the best of mindsets, it was 'the right thing to do.'

to live in the real world takes many little decisions every day where you 'compromise yourself' - you'd rather do this but must do that instead. working for some corporations may be good pay and benefits for you and your family, but the corporation's goals, however well-intentioned, can hurt innocent people (usually because of a self-limited worldview). the ability to hold 'contradictory thoughts' at the same time is basically a turing test, and most humans are capable of it - but not everyone. and those people incapable of considering the -rights-, let alone the -feelings- of the other, and much more common side of the commerce fence, proves something about them.

that for all the arguing, there were some who never grew beyond their own limited worldview that 'it's all only information and information is free and you can't stop it' and then ironically could not, nor would not offer any more than that quip, -any more information- regarding solutions to this work/income contradiction simply prove to me that they do not share in our interests - us honest folks, creators and customers alike who respect the concepts of work and product and service, no matter our trade. apparently these kinds of people live not in want nor need; everything is provided for them - hence, they expect to be served, and only served their way. they do not need to consider other's rights to profit from their work, as is the way of the world.

they just simply do not live at all with the kinds of demands or concerns that many of us have, you and i. and though i'm always game to discuss and listen and think for a solution, i stop listening after awhile to those who can only say 'there is no solution' over and over again. heard 'em already; seems there's nothing new to learn from them. that they show not the slightest bit of care for others, no thought or concern at all for the very process that others must 'make a living to live' especially in this day and age, is mind-boggling to me. instead, they point fingers and yelp 'you're rich and you don't deserve it!', without any evidence lol that their subject is 'actually rich' (which scale are we using here?), or considering their speciality or service, or the size of their happy patrons vs. unhappy previous customers, or if they're simply having a good vs. an off-year, etc etc. they display no empathy at all. this simply is not the rw - nor sl - we live in.

(p.s. to say though, many here with opposing views -have- offered their ideas as best they can, at least they tried. ;0 those who actually engage the conversation and offer as best they can their own ideas and feelings, even if sometimes contradictory to my own, but, you might think 'amazingly,' i greatly agree with much of what they say and believe, along the 'it can't be stopped' lines - i agree. what i've found disagreeable in this thread was, if you pardon the term, 'the trolls' who kinda only grunt about 'free everything' tossed in with twice as many personal insults and that's about it. they may not even realize it, but they seem to be simply disruptive 'for the sake of being disruptive', and by doing so, they enable and encourage entirely 'the wrong side'. and i think even others who come from the 'can't be stopped' side can see them that way too.)

okay, well that's it for me too prolly; this thread grew too hot, but it shined brightly while it did. ;0 i'm surprised it never got the lock. i hope you all clean up after yourselves when you're done!! ;0

She, actually. Not just a scripter, but a scripter who helps others create successful products and businesses. *I* think that has valid currency in the discussion, regardless if you (and Desmond) do not.



Oh, they've still been copied, even recently, and many scripters aren't JUST scripters, either, but prim builders, texture creators, sound creators, animators, etc. Just because someone has particular skill with scripting shouldn't automatically disqualify them from the content protection debate. We have as much skin in this game as anyone.

If you're not interested in using the tools the LAW gives you (which, I add, are HEAVILY weighted towards creators of IP), then don't create content, don't distribute it, or don't worry about it being infringed.



Those that have a valid non-infringing use for such tools should have the rights to such use, irrespective of the "potential" for infringing use by anyone else.



The fact that Argent's point cleared your cranium is evident from the part in your hair.

I know. I'd just FEEL better about it. But I fail to see how banning such tools becomes dangerous. Or, more precisely, how banning tools that have capabilities that allow their owners to circumvent the TOS is dangerous, since BuilderBot does provide a very useful function for anyone who wants to copy their own stuff.



As long as you pay me for it. I sell copies of my work, which you do not have the right to copy yourself. If you make a copy of my work without paying me for it, that does not qualify as "substantial non-infringing use". You may as well remove the copy permission from all content in SL with that logic.

Right. Leave your doors unlocked a lot, do you? The law doesn't require you to bolt your door. I'm talking about bolting my door.



Please explain to me a valid, non-infringing use you would have for copying inworld content you do not own.

There is the meat of the dilemma. LL could say there is a policy like that, but it's unenforceable. One viewer was mentioned here because it "respects permissions" but that viewer, in fact, is designed to allow perms to be bypassed with a trivial skinning change. Two more user settings make it indistinguishable from the vanilla LL viewer. That's not hypothetical or some custom viewer someone has to hack together and compile, it's a fairly mainstream client (these "copybots" aren't really bots at all). This "builderbot" functionality is little more than a looped copybot. This too can be rolled into a perfectly normal looking viewer, completely invisible to LL and others.

Encryption and "trusted binaries" will all get cracked, SL wouldn't be immune to the whole "0 day warez" thing. Server side rendering would possibly work, and there was one vaporware VW that claimed it would do at least some of that, but it was vaporware. Is there any technology out there today that can actually deliver pre-rendered 3D-to-2D in real time, at a price consumers would swallow?

Not all uses of such a tool would violate the ToS, even in the case of violating the permissions system.



No one said that "infringement" is a "substantial non-infringing use". That's kind of an oxymoron.



Regularly.



No, the law GIVES you a bolt for your door AND a large stick with which to beat intruders up and steal their lunch money. If you don't want to use all the means the LAW GIVES YOU, that's your choice.



I've already given one in the context of Builder's Bot in this thread. In summary, I create some objects, give them to my alt, and put out many instances of them which aren't full perms, in addition to some stuff I, on my main, put out not full-perms. I want to package it all up and move it to OpenSim or to my own local simulator for further testing/development. Since neither my alt or myself own ALL of the objects in question, neither one of us can pick them all up in one box and transfer them. A tool like builder's bot can, thus reducing my workload, leaving me more time to work.

It doesn't have to be an alt, either; deed to group so they are group-owned. Once group-owned without full perms, you can't get them back full-perms.

Those are just two instances off the top of my head.

Because implementing the ban leads down an infinite regress of ever-tighter checks, at the end of which is Steam. And each step down that path reduces the reliability and stability of Second Life.

For what? The substantial non-infringing use of BuilderBot is archiving sims you've created yourself. That's similar to the time-shifting use in the Betamax decision.

That's an easy one. Company hires a team to do a build on their sim(s). Team goes about their work. End result sim(s) full of prims owned by several builders. Team leader beams the whole sim up with this tool and delivers complete package to the company that hired them.

Wow. That sounds exactly like what the tool was designed for. How 'bout that.

Yes I do have more then a minimum amount of expertise to lend to the thread, including the business aspects. Along with helping people learn, I program in more then a handful of languages and am also the Network and SysAdmin for my company. I have studied security extensively both for work but also in regards to Second Life because I care deeply for this platform. I know my way around Syser and know root kits, how they work and can defeat them if necessary. I am not as fast as many though and it is easier just to wait the few hours it takes for someone to post a crack for any of them. I am intimately familiar with a broad range of the tools that can bypass perms here and know how to use each one effectively. I mentioned it before and I will mention it again: "Know thine enemy!"

Security concerns here pale in comparison to the real world. Any company of any real size has to do online banking, consumers are protected if your computer is hacked and someone initiates wire transfers from your account, you get the money back. Business is not offered this same protection and in any given week the security of several hundred thousand dollars is in my hands. If we get hacked we loose the money permanently.

On top of my expertise, you have Argent and Talarus who both know more concerning computers systems and the Second Life back end then I ever will. But we have all been saying that there is no way to plug the leaks. It is an integral part of the system. But we have also been saying that you should not be alarmed and help spread a hysterical response that can and will cause more damage then Builder Bot could ever possibly cause. The community leaders like Desmond and Carl should instead educate themselves. Second Life has been surviving and will continue to do so if everyone will remain calm. Spread the word, Builder Bot or any other tool does not make it worse then it is. If you are having fun and even making money here then this will not change that.

There is a plethora of texture stores in SL, some make more then a trivial amount of money. Yet textures were never secure, even before SL was created. SL uses OpenGL and anyone has always been able to steal textures. LibSL gave everyone the ability to rip items from SL a few years ago and we are still here. I have tried both and it is a trivial matter for anyone to use either that or Copy Bot to rip. This is not news to any of the bad guys, they have always known that. Yet SL is still here despite the content theft.

Everyone looks up to the so called business experts, then fine, just ask Stoker, who was the victim of a serious breach(not caused by any tools). This did cost him a large amount of money, yet he is still here, he survived and continues to make money. Unfortunately, sometimes this is the cost of doing business in both the real world and here in Second Life. It is reprehensible and sad when theft happens but it does happen and you can survive. Large corporations spend hundreds of millions of dollars on security each and every year but also realize that there is going to be some theft. Google and take a look at how much Walmart looses in a calendar year, but while you are at it, look at their profits.

Builder Bot does not make matters worse, nor will it make it easier, no tool will make it worse then it is. But will some business leader please explain why Texture stores still make money? If it is as bad as the picture that is being painted then there should not be one single texture store anywhere in the grid.

Ghosty, if you are having fun and are making some money now then you will continue to do so. Unless of course the so called business leaders fail to learn from their mistakes during the Copy Bot crisis and kill the platform with their doomsday forecasts.

Oh, gads.. O.o

Do you want the business leaders to REALLY get up in arms? Be more careful with your word-os.

LMAO, CRAP!!!!!! What can I say? It was a veeeery long day today.

Correcting immediately!

Yes, let's do that. Oh, wait, we don't have to ask...

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/28570-strokerz-rant.html

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/24299-bot-wars.html

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/15466-selling-out-sour-grapes.html



I encourage you to read his SLU posts before using him as an example of how well creators are doing in the face of content theft. In short, he's very much not happy. I hope he doesn't throw in the towel, but I wouldn't be shocked to see it.

I am a builder, so the existence of tools that allow one to freely copy my creations without regard to the permissions system concerns me.

But not as much as the willingness people have expressed in trying to banish such technology on the grounds that it poses a threat to creators/copyright holders everywhere. Although this thing does have potential to be abused, it *does* have a perfectly legitimate, valuable use. If technologies that could be used to take away a creator's rights were outright banned from being produced and marketed, then we would never have been able to enjoy such things as the VCR, the photocopier, writable optical media (the CD-R/RW), the MP3 Player...

Just something to think about. Personally, I don't believe resources should be wasted trying to challenge the legitimacy of the Builder Bot et al. Rather, resources would be far better spent in revamping and strengthening the SL permissions system.

I am aware of his posts in SLU. His products were never stolen through any of the tools, in fact a lot slipped out through an exploit that LL introduced. Look closely at where his vitriol is directed:

"I challenge Linden Lab to refute my belief that there are less than four people dedicated to content protection, DMCA takedown requests or copyright and trademark infringement."

I completely agree with this and this is what we mentioned several times in this thread. No where does Stoker mention Copy Bot or GLIntercept or banning any tools. LL has to get off of it's butt and start taking DMCA seriously. This is exactly where everyone's energy should be focused. Want to start a letter writing campaign? Deluge LL with a flood of mail demanding them to start working on DMCA complaints, both bogus and real. You know all of those free, ripped skins people have mentioned here? You do know that LL could have easily removed them from the inventory of every single person grid wide, don't you? As each complaint comes in, it is investigated and if it is valid, the content can be removed, minimizing any damage. If the turn around was a week or two, instead of endless months(or never), then the grid would be in much better shape.

Has he been hurt? Most definitely, much more then most people, including myself, can possibly imagine. But just how many people can say that they make enough money here to be able to afford ten's of thousands of dollars in legal fees? I do hope LL does change and I do hope that Stoker never leaves. He has worked hard for his money and even harder in customer support and deserves it. But none of this is contrary to what I have said, including using him as an example.

Jesse, I'll leave Stroker's words to speak for themselves since you apparently can't be arsed to read them.

On a real streak today? No one else to direct your anger at Anya? Keep it coming as I do not care and it does not bother me. Our message will still sink in to at least some of the people.

Although some limited script copying has happened, scripters have a real threat ahead, in the form of grid interoperability. When all content including scripts can pass between grids, unless LL is flawless in requiring explicit permissions to move between grids, it's all over for scripters and everybody else who creates content in SL. Really. At that point it's time to just pack up, sell out for anything we can get, and find a new use for our time.
We chatted a bit tangentially to this in-world. You know, LL does way, way less about protecting user generated content than do media industries. A significant share of total bittorrent traffic is generated by attempts to sample and detect infringement. ASCAP has a whole human and technological royalty-collection apparatus, monitoring broadcast frequencies.

The current scale of SL should be comparatively easy: a relatively slow-growing universe of unique assets with provenance metadata. A huge amount of it is image data, for which there are robust similarity-matching algorithms--and prim assembly data are even more readily matched. (Stretching slightly, there's the possibility of robust imperceptible digital watermarking that would make it all even more tractable.) With such efforts and voluntary content registration, LL could really help its users enforce copyrights by detecting probable violations.

If LL took such steps, the proliferation of wholesale copying programs really would be of little concern, at least within the LL grid. Ultimately, if interoperable grids become a reality, grids that don't provide such infringement detection will be considered the "rogue" grids that will be banned from interop. A day could come when the the Linden grids are shut out and sidelined for lack of such technology.

(Not likely any time soon, however, given the maturity level of other grids at the moment.)

Here's what he has to say about technical copy controls. All from the first article I linked.






Here's what he has to say about the state of content creation. Again, from the first article.




Now, who do I think has more credibility when discussing *business* and the effects of content theft: Stroker and Desmond or Jesse, Talarus and Argent?

And do I leave it to Jesse to characterize Stroker's views on the matter?

Even if we're already releasing our best scripts open-source and people are STILL buying them? Yes, I'm doing it as a hobby, and it's only paying for tier, but it *is* paying for tier.

Leave me out of this, I've been debating Desmond an others on the technology. I'm not claiming it has no effect on sales, I'm just saying that trying to stop it would hurt them worse.