Is this GAMING or GAMBLING?

Nobody misunderstood this let alone believe it was targeting anyone. But what is thought about when you brough up this comment is the general population of sl and its over all health.
what is going to happen with this gaming problems is a total banned all together. I once again seeing game club owner putting CHANCE games in the locations again and trying to sell it off as free play.

Kain,
I agree with you that skill games are not considered gambling but there sure seems to be a fine line.
In my opinion, any sploder(no matter what people are now calling them) and any game such as Demons or Slingo, etc are gambling according to the TOS. There is no skill to such games, it's all luck. At the one place I mentioned before as an example, you can set the game to auto play. So, how would that be a skill game.
People are obviously doing all they can to change the names of things and calling certain things "skill games", just in attempt to get around the TOS.
But there's either a ban or there isn't, and if there is, then uphold it. Or, SL should once again send out a blog explaining EXACTLY what games out there are allowed and not allowed. It wouldn't be very hard for them(SL, LL) to see what's out there and what's going on, all you have to do is search places.
I would like to play several games, but I won't if they're not allowed.

Sorry but I have to interject when I see this kind of misinformation being posted (again). Nowhere in the Second Life Blogs does it state that there is a tolerance level for an element of chance. In fact it states quite the opposite.

From Second Life Blog dated August 9th, 2007 at 8:29 PM PST by Robin Linden:
Does this policy apply to “skill contests”
This policy only applies to wagering games that involve AN ELEMENT OF CHANCE. This includes, for instance, any game involving random number generation, simulated dice, cards, poker, lotteries, bingo, or any other “chance” game. Games of PURE intellectual or physical skill, such as puzzles or other skill contests, may not fall under this definition."


That statement pretty much blows your claim out of the water. Likewise Kain is wrong when he says that skill games are not considered gambling (under Linden Lab policy). The wording is neither vague nor ambiguous. It could not be any more explicit as it includes a high skill game that has an element of chance, i.e. poker. That game has far less chance and far more skill to win than any of the slot machine variants such as Zyngo and DMC.

This has nothing to do with whether these games are illegal under any laws in any country. It is about whether they violate internal rules set forth by Linden Lab, which of course they do notwithstanding that a team of Linden Lab personnel tasked with evaluating them failed to recognize this fact. I know of no official list of approved games by Linden Lab but if anyone knows of a published list of games approved by Linden Lab please post the link.

If you know of a specific lawyer who inspected the games also please state his name, or have evidence that anyone else other than Zara Linden was involved in evaluating these games please provide it. Here is what I have from Ken Dreifach, Deputy General Counsel of Linden Lab:

"While I am not aware of "Devil May Care," my understanding is that the
other games you mention are NOT DEPENDENT on random number generation
or elements of chance."

That is a clear indication that he was NOT involved in any direct evaluation of any of these games, and is only getting information of these games second-hand, and that the information is inaccurate.

I can understand why Kain and Gen might be resentful and defensive about this but facts are facts. A question was asked as to whether the game violates the wagering policy and the answer was given. It's an appropriate question for Resident Answers. Generally speaking though, I don't think either Kain or Gen or anyone else who makes up a new game has anything to worry about. Linden Lab does not seem to be particularly interested in enforcing its policy to the letter and I (and many others) suspect the policy is just a tool to keep out traditional gambling games which are the real target of the UIGEA.

I don't cmpletely disagree with everything you say, but there is particulary no difference between the american driven website worldwinner.com and the games there (where you can use paypal, and paypal does prohibit gambling), and some games even allow you to autoplay using one or more generic strategies (those strategies are ofcourse not as a good as a human, because of the random factor), but fact of the matter is on the long run, you cannot play them as a blackjack or a slotmachine and excpect to win anything, but if you play the game properly you can on the long run win some pennys. If you strongly believe different then you know more than worldwinners.com's lawyers, paypal.com's lawyers and linden lab's lawyers, and thats prety impressive, then perhaps you should file a lawsuit against them all, if it bothers you. But i still fail to understand why it bothers you, in the nannystate we are enslaved living in, why would you wish for more slavery ? Why don't you just mind your own business, or as i said if you have such strong opinions then test in in a RL court, the world would be a much happier place if people just started minding their own business, instead of trying to voluntary police the world.

My failure to understand your intention is this: does it kill you ? if not, then why do you want to kill others ?

Disclaimer: I'm in no way affiliated with any game creators in SL, nor do i make any games since late august 07, because i believe the process of getting a game approved is over beurocratic.

My first question is, what is your intention ? How does this contribuite to either Linden Lab or SL community in a positive way ? I fail to see any positivity here, what i see is you want to KILL others, why ? Would you like if i would Kill you ? Wouldn't you wonder what the hell is the intention ?

Also you should not forget that the BLOG is not above the LAW, the BLOG is written based on the LAW, and therefore it is the LAW we should look at, not the BLOG... In other words, the LAW is not based on the BLOG. (but you ofcourse know all that)

However as stated in the blog puzzle games (wich is the very definition of many of the games you want to KILL) states that they may or may not be prohibited.

Have you ever played or made a puzzle game ? I have, and as it is in for example Supermario Bros (wich is a platformer) there are random elements (in mario you have "monsters" respawn randomly to add some variance to the game, if it was same each time ONE player would always win) similar with puzzles if the puzzle was equal each round you could either run a macro to play perfectly or just remember what you did last round and do same over and over. Thats how you can get anygameplay there has to be some random elements, otherwise the game would be exploitable and last but not least extremely boring.

In a way one could argue that Blackjack is a puzzle, you have to make good pairs and compare with the house, ridiculous claim as it would be because the random element is hte master of blackjack, so theres no way one can argue that the skill is more important.

And thats basicly the line, if you dont believe me thats fine, call you lawyer and KILL all games, lets make all STATIC so its so borning that ppl will fall asleep while playing.

Eventualy if you want to continue this discussion ask yourself this question, how do you make gameplay in a puzzle without ANY elelement of chance ? I would be willing even developing a such game in YOUR name, and you'll get 90% of the sales revenue. (thats if i find the gameplay attractive and find similar opinions). I'm not kidding here, i'm seriously willing to spend time to develop your game if you can come up with a puzzle with such specification that has unexploitable gameplay without any element of chance (that way i would respect your intention as a constructive one, not a destructive one). With your level of intelligence i am sure this is peanuts for you

It contributes to the SL Community to know where they stand in terms of Linden Lab policies and to have accurate information to counter all the misinformation being posted about the same. You seem to think this is some sort of tattle tale forum. It's not. It's called Resident Answers. People ask questions about the game including whether things are or are not against TOS and other people post answers. Linden Lab does not monitor these forums for the purposes of going after people.

Wrong. As pointed out before the law is irrelevant here. We are analyzing internal rules governing content and conduct in Second Life. Laws would only apply if Linden Lab policies conflicted with them and they do not when it comes to its wagering policy. Additionally that is all irrelevant since you never actually followed up with a point to your false assumption.

Wrong. The blog states "Games of PURE INTELLECTUAL or PHYSICAL skill, such as puzzles or other skill contests, may not fall under this definition." I capitalized the word PURE to bring it to the readers attention and further capitalize the references now to personal aptitude (intellectual and physical skill) to point out how different that is than what you have said. Take in conjunction with the preceding sentence that the policy applies to any wagering games involving an element of chance and it becomes clear that Linden Lab is not offering a carveout for games that involve skill with this language, it is simply stating that if a wagering game is purely based on skill, i.e. without any element of chance involved, that game may not fall under the policy. For example if you and I play play a game of chess for money, or have a game to see who can complete a crossword puzzle first the wagering policy may not apply to our game.

And your point is??? Last time I checked, when I stuck a Supermario Bros game cartridge into a gamebox it did not require me and my friend to pay in money to play and it did not payout money to the winner.

Nothing in Second Life prohibits you from making a game that involves elements of chance. There are plenty of SL games that involve an element of chance that don't violate the wagering policy. Neorealms Fishing and Tiny Empires are two examples. It's only when one starts inducing people to play by offering them the possibility of winning money while requiring them to also pay in money that the game violates the wagering policy. Ask yourself this question, if your game requires people to pay to play and it lacks sufficient entertainment value to induce people to buy it or play it without the promise of giving them money, how is it any different than any other gambling game?

Isee you have a very isolated understanding of the wagering policy, and that is your right, but it is not the "divine truth". With such isolated point of view i do nolonger expect you to understand why www.worldwinner.com is not gambling (it's not about the fact that people make tons of money at that site, it is just a small compensation, yes afew ppl manage to win pots often, but they dont play to win, they play for fun)

We have to look at it from an objective perspective to avoid falling for corrupt conclusions.

All i ask you for now is, try to understand the motivation of the players that visit worldwinner.com from a nonmaterialistic perspective, and then you'll figure out that that company is not violating any laws, that website is a good guidance to understand how the blog is to be understood and should explain why Linden Lab is so greatful to allow us a bit of freedom, not because they want us to violate the laws, rather because their lawyers know the limits.

Note, yes i do share your understanding that the blog is written with causion, the reason is greedy ppl would argue that poker is a game of skill, so the blog has to be abit "overkill" to avoid such.

And as you said this is resident o resident discussion, and thats why we should look at it from an objective perspective, not an isolated one, but i do understand that some people believe www.worldwinner.com is a gambling site, well thats not true so we should not pretend it is.

we'er not talking abotu worldwinner.com. we are talking about SL and it's TOS.

Its TOS, well its TOS, can you copypaste to me where it says anything about gambling ? All it says about it is check the RL law. thats why i use that website as an example.

Is your agenda to claim that we cannot make games wich are found at that website in SL ?

Reason i'm using that website as an example is because that is the law. Any corporation such as Linden Lab is always interrested in following the law and regulations ONLY where necesary, accourding,

but you're saying that you're not satisfied with that, you want Linden Lab to go above the Unlawful Internet Gambling Act, thats interresting, i thought most people prefer freedom over over-regulation.

Do you have anything else you would like to see criminalized ?

my agenda is to determine whether a place in Shark sim has a legal or illegal gaming system according to the SL TOS.


did they tell you this is the legal route they have followed?


i did? quote me.


i have no idea how you made this leap in rationale.


your ignorant behavior.

3ring, if you're trying to determine if those games are legal, why not contact lindens ? (since you claimed that Kain did this: "you may have talked big circles around one LL staff member, but they won't all be fooled, nor will the general public." why dont you talk them out of the circle ?

We SL users do not have the authority to judge that, only lindens do. And based on their present conclusion those games are perfectly legal. Why fix it if it ain't broke ?


....

Let me help you out abit, this is from TOS:

"The Linden Software is subject to all applicable export restrictions. You must comply with all export and import laws and restrictions and regulations of any United States or foreign agency or authority relating to the Linden Software and its use."

That is what the TOS says about gambling.

So what are the importexport laws, restrictions, well we could study them, or just use other RL companies such as worldwinner.com as a guidance to make it easier.

To Gen Ferris:
I don't even see where you are coming from at all here. You write as if you're being personally attacked. I never said that anything bothers me. And why should I mind my own buisness? This is my buisness. I am an SL resident and I've come on here to ask a few very simple questions and hope to get some accurate answers, of which all I've really gotten are opinions and speculation. I've read the TOS, but I also see lots of things in lots of places around SL. I really would appreciate it if LL would put out a list of exactly what games are and are not allowed. Obviously lots of people are changing names of certain games and calling them things they are not. I never wanted the gambling to go away on SL, I still wish it was all allowed. But LL made a ruling and banned it all. Yet lots of it does still exist. I'd like to play, but I won't if I'm not actually allowed. I don't want to get suspended or anything for playing a game that's supposed to be banned. The TOS is crystal clear, yet it's also somewhat confusing. Which is why some of us are here asking the questions. I've asked here in this thread and one other. I wish some Lindens would read these and reply, or I wish they'd put out another blog giving an update on the whole situation and what they're doing about it, if anything. Not much comes from opinions and speculations when we need real answers here.

To Dagmar Heideman:
Very well spoken and well written comments that you made here. Bravo!

To 3Ring Binder:
You and I seem to be here trying to find answers to very similar questions. I hope we'll both eventually find some accurate and valid answers.

I completely agree with you on the fact that we do need and deserve a list, i was one of those gamedevelopers that argued that we need that but lindens dont want to (from their perspective quiet understandable, because if they once would make a mistake they would be charged and also it would conflict with their TOS where they hide themself under "we dont regulate content". Reason i sound like as if i was attacked is because it seems that some people who stated that game developers can "talk lindens to circles" and get a game approved in almost 10 seconds are just making theories it isnt that easy to get a game approved (it took ppl 3 months to get zyngo approved). I completely second your frustration, we need to get rid of corrupt politicians they are the ones that made Linden Labs and our lifes hard because of the gambling act of 07 (wich gave one online casino monopoly, i do hope that in the future this bill will be reversed because it is unamerican to give such a monopoly this way).
As far as getting banned, as long as you dont play at the secret casinos on gambling games you wont get banned (reason they had to say they'll ban players and owners is because the underground gambling was growing too big and that was a developing problem) so if you play at a place that has a game wich is marketed well such as zyngo or kains games you are safe as heaven to play.

Pssttt.. .my game is called DEAL lol but Kains Game Sounds pretty cool

Couldn't you find a shorter name, hard to memorize a such "long" word

Where is the SKILL AT THE End of game when i have to Click a field who can Steal my Points ??

Its just like the Same when i Play Lottery.

Skillgame Means Always You get Points by using your Skill.

What is Skill when i can use wildcards who come not so often ??
Or not the same time each game ??

Skill Means Not get Automatic Penaltys Like Steal Points.

Skill means each Player have the Same Chance and Same condition.

Wildcards who comes not same times are not Same condition.

GAMBLING = rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner

To Lose Points and get Penaltys is CHANCE !!!!

Like the stock market then?

Why are people necrobumping these dead gambling threads?

They probably lost a lot of L playing a game and got all fired up about it.

That has got to be a word of the week candidate - necrobumping I like it!

apparantly this gambling game is still around, albeit moved to a new location, and someone got stung.

just AR it.

Ahhh

K

News Flash -

Gambling still exists in Second Life!

The Lindens tasked with enforcement do a haphazard job.

But they cant even do that much if there is no AR.

Full Report at 11!

Thread necromancy is bad.

There is no gambling in Second Life. These slot machines you see all around Second Life are illusions.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm late for a poker tournament in a skybox in Ahern.

I have little or no interest in gambling and I have no legal expertise. But for some reason I just read this whole thread and would like to comment.

The people who think Deal is against the rules seem to think so because of the element of chance involved.

But someone quoted the rules and it kind of looked to me like games that do not give prizes that can be converted to USD are not in violation of the rules, regardless of how they are played.

Someone else quoted the Deal notecard which said that the prizes would be points which could be traded for SL merchandise, and that that merchandise would be no-transfer, and so could NOT be converted to L$ (which in turn could be converted to USD).

So if I've read this all right (it could happen!) Deal is not against Linden's rules for allowed games.

Hmmm are you sure there is no money payout involved?

I'm looking at this Deal thing on SL exchange

its sold in a 20 pack box for 40,000$L !!!!!!!!!!!!

One thing for sure the creator isn't the one gambling.

But maybe the buyer is.