Is this GAMING or GAMBLING?

I started another thread questioning the whole gambling thing but am still confused as to what's allowed and what's not.
Sploders were gone for awhile and yet now I see them everywhere I go.
Also single games that are just like slingo are around. I wouldn't mind playing these, but don't want to get in trouble for it.
Yes, they call them games of skill, but they really are clearly games of chance.
For example, there is a casino place called Club Extreme, Extreme 32, 89, 32. They used to have slot machines, and now they have games called Demons. These games are like Slingo, however I thought Slingo was outlawed on SL.
They do have free sessions of this game, but you can also play them anytime and they cost all different amounts to play.
Are these legal or not in SL? And if not, why are they still around all over the place.
This isn't the only place with these types of games, I'm just giving it as an example if anyone wants to go look and say yes or no they are ok to play.
I hope I don't offend anyone by naming a place, again it's only one example of hundreds. It's not like I'm reporting them either or want to, it's a public place where anyone can go. Same as all others that are around SL.
Also, again, what about the Sploders?
All of these games I mentioned seem to be gambling to me for sure, games of chance.
You pay in to play a game, and the owner of the game makes $ on it, and maybe you win, and maybe you don't.
Just general gaming to me would be games such as Whack a Mole, where you pay a small amount such as $1L just for fun to see if you can beat the high score, but there's no money to be won. Such as you'd find in an arcade.
Any Lindens out there reading this that could give true and accurate answers here instead of all the speculation and opinions? It would be appreciated. Thanks ahead of time for any more info.

Seems to me that you have a pretty good handle on all this already Wider.

I just did a search, and you can even purchase all of these types of games. So if they are really still illegal, why are they for sale? It wouldn't take a lot of effort for LL to shut them all down.
I just want to know what is really allowed and what is not.

Also, about these message boards, why was it necessary for someone to post my entire post again when it was right above? LOL

It's legal to sell them, just not use them. I'd AR on sight, anyways.



Here we go again, if it meets *all three* of these criteria, it's bad joo-joo:

1) Takes Money
2) Uses a random generator in any way/shape/form
3) Gives out anything of value - $L or prizes

#2 seems to confuse a lot of people and is the general basis for a lot of ZOMG MY POKERR SHE CANNT BE ILEGALSZ.

ANY element of randomness is a ding. Shuffling cards, dice, etc.

OMGZ POKLER IZ TEH SKILZZ GAEM! ITZ NOT ILLEGAL WAAA!

No. Shuffling cards = random = rule 2.

Yes, I'm openly mocking the people that still insist there's some way around US *Federal* internet gaming laws. Don't take it too personally.

Sploder's are illegal, as they meet all three criteria, although LL has been known to turn a blind eye to them.

LL isn't actively policing for these things, will never actually clearly list out what's actually allowed, and only possibly does something after getting some unspecified number of abuse reports about it.

As far as I know (and this is ONLY conjecture) it's relatively okay to actually gamble at them, but *should* be illegal to run them, just no-one's given enough of a shit to do anything about it -- so I assume most of these places are basing their operations on the "we'll keep it going until we get AR'd, then we'll set up somewhere else" business model.



Why do people use LOL like it's some sort of punctuation? *shrug*

Thanks Beezle, I know all of that though from reading the TOS on the gambling policy but it's confusing when so many places are still allowing it, promoting it, and even selling it.
What is AR'ing something, and how do you do it? Sounds like it's some way to report something. I've seen that mentioned on these boards but haven't seen an explanation of what it means.
By the way, why do people use things like *shrug* as if anyone needs to imagine them "shrugging" while sitting at their computer? LOL ( I don't really want an answer, it was just a rhetorical question) No LOL is not a form of punctuation. At least LOL has a function, to let people know that what you just typed was in jest, or a joke, or not to be taken too seriously.

It's sort of like Speakeasies during Prohibition -- they move a lot.



AR is Abuse Report. You can file one by going to Help at the top, then selecting Report Abuse.



*shrug* *burp* *yawn*, etc just add flavor, and serve sort of the same purpose as you see LOL making.

In this case *shrug* mean exactly what a RL shrug would imply -- that I'm just making an offhand comment.

I may be predisposed to dislike LOL because I heard in one too many times coming from bozos in "pick up group" teams on another mmo-- "I just got u all kiled lol" for example and is overused by the same types of folk that seem to find U, UR and lolcat-speak as an acceptable substitute for actual English. Keep in mind that the use of LOL may get you automatically assumed to be one of this ilk, whether you are or not.

IM IN UR FORUMZ DERAELIN UR TOPIX!

Linden Labs is collectively clueless about the fact that gambling is still alive and well in Second Life and advertised in Second Life classifieds. Zara Linden has shown time and time again that she lacks the competency and aptitude necessary to enforce Linden Lab's anti-wagering policy at both ends of the extremes by returning items for violating the anti-wagering policy which clearly do not violate it and giving a pass to games that clearly do. If Linden Lab is really serious about enforcing the anti-wagering policy then it needs to replace her with someone who is qualified to do the job.

You'd think that internet gambling being a federal offense, they'd put a bit more effort into complying.

Lest I let this misconception be reinforced here, internet gambling is NOT a US federal offense. The federal courts confirmed this in the most recent ruling against the United States Attorney General in this matter.

It IS a federal offense for any financial institution subject to U.S. jurisidiction to facilitate funding to site operaters of unlawful internet gambling under any applicable state or federal laws (basically state laws since the federal courts have ruled that the federal Wire Act does not apply to internet gambling except for very limited and specific forms of gambling).

Although the reality is that it is highly probable that any state prosecutor trying to go after an internet gambling site would lose the case (which is probably why no state prosecutor has done so), banks, having no vested interest in maintaining business with internet gambling site operators, have taken the conservative position of not allowing funds from US accounts to go to internet gambling sites.

Although SL is not an internet gambling site it has similarly taken the conservative stance that allowing gambling to go on in SL unchecked could eventually get it targetted by banks as a site operator of unlawful internet gambling so Linden Lab adopted its current loosely enforced ant-wagering policy.

Ah, thank you.

LOL you just outlawed the vendor I'm playing with. (it puts a random item on sale at random times)

Given the state of the asset server and intra-sim communications, any networked vendor system is a gambling device -- will it actually deliver product?

Response to all of you who posted extremely negatively about Lindens and great games such as DMC, Zyngo and kain's game. (not those of you who actualy posted constructive criticism)

(specially 3ring)

Are any of you lawyers ? What is it that qualifies you to judge above what Lindens (not a linden but lindens) concluded ?

Based on my lifetime experience, those who shout the loudest are those who usually are incapable of producing anything. You are simply jealous, and you spend so much time ranting your opinions spamming the forums, for what ? People like you would fit perfectly into a government system such as Трóцкий (alternative spelling: Trotsky, Trotskii, Trotski, Trotskij, Trockij and Trotzky) style communism or dictatorship, the nonproductive fools that can be used as agents for counterproductive purposes (yes counterproductivity is also what caused collapse of communism, they were too damn busy watching everybody else and reporting to their masters, instead of minding their own business, as opposed to what usa did back at the time of ussr, today this has unfortunately changed abit, and i do hope we dont endup like the communists).

Counterproductive cowards such as you are (specialy 3ring) is what causes class clashes not only in SL but in RL aswell. Why don't you people just shut you bloody mouth, and contribute to the community. If you are uncapable of that start a damn blog or whatever pleases you.

We simply don't give a shit about your opinions, you are not in position to judge, if you believe otherwise then act like an adult not like a 15 year old, file a RL lawsuit agaist Linden Lab or the game creators. Doing the continous reposting of your unjustifiable opinions just makes you look like totaly ignorant foolish bastards.

Oh and youknow what, just for the hell of it, i'm gonna buy all of Kain's, Arrgles and the other games you hate.

One more thing 3ring, is this you ?: http://youtube.com/watch?v=yc_PLOWlb0c

Perhaps its not you, but this is a perfect RL example of people that can't let other other do what they wanna do, as long as it doesnt hurt you why bother, can't we all get along ?

Think about it.

It's spelled Trotsky. Or Trotzki. But definitely not Trocky.

HTH, HAND, Comrade.

Uncapable? Usualy? Jelous? Buzy? Capitalization???

Based on my lifetime of experience, those who are incapable of using the language are unsuited for debate.

You got my point, thats most important, thanks alot for fixing my typo.

English is not my native language, and i strongly believe this forum is not for english lessons, but i truly appriciate the effort.

Many thanks

Every now and then I do need reminding of the sort of depth of drivel that can be posted on the forums, and this serves well, thank you!

Yes some of us are lawyers but so what? That means nothing in and of itself. If I'm a lawyer and all I do is residential real estate transactions it's hardly going to qualify me to make statements about federal and state gambling laws. I happen to know someone who is a senior associate in a law firm specializing in gaming, gambling, contest and lottery laws though. She happens to have a Second Life account and she happens to have had the opportunity to correspond with the Deputy General Counsel of Linden Lab about the gambling games currently promulgated in Second Life with Linden Lab's knowledge and facilitation.

We are approaching a day of celebration for a man who shouted loud and hard to advocate racial equality and harmony in the United States and was instrumental in the civil rights movement but I suppose by your experience Martin Luther King was just a nobody incapable of producing anything.

Wow the ignorance and irony of this part is up there. In a totalitarian governments like those no one would be allowed to post their thoughts, opinions or observations. It sounds like the kind of government with which you would be right at home though presuming you were among the dictators.

Ah so now you begin hurling random derogatory non-sensical epithets. Where does the concept of being a "coward" fit into all of this? I can see how it might be fitting in an immature intellectually-stunted tirade such as yours to say things like "jerk" and "a**hole" and "scumbag" or something like that but this is the first time I have seen someone call someone cowardly merely for posting opinions, assertions, and FACTS in a thread with which he takes umbrage.

"We?" "We" meaning all of SL, or "we' meaning the creators and owners of gambling games in SL? I doubt you represent either. Yes you clearly don't give a s**t about the opinions which is why you posted this long winded full-of-hot air rant.

Aside from that being a snub towards many 15 year olds (I know of several that can post more coherently and intelligently than you btw) it is laughable that you are implying anything about the lack of maturity displayed in ANYONE's post given the post you made.

Go ahead. I don't hate them. I play DMC sometimes for fun and to support the estates that have them. (Shoo! goaway devil! Shoo!) I loved playing poker when it was allowed in SL too. My observations are not made out of hatred for anyone. They are simply observations based on incontrovertible facts unless one prefers to change the meaning of the English language. Any game which requires a payment, has an element of chance such as random tile or number generation influencing the outcome of the game with the promise of a greater payout to the winner is clearly prohibited in Second Life. The fact that you or others including most Linden Lab personnel in charge of enforcing this policy don't get it doesn't change the policy. It just means it is not being enforced because the people in charge of it lack the aptititude to understand and enforce it.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that Zara Linden has acted in ways that clearly show she is incapable of interpreting and applying Linden Lab policy on wagering in Second Life. It is perfectly constructive to suggest that if Linden Lab is really serious about enforcing its policy it should entrust that duty to someone that is capable of understanding it and applying it to Second Life content. I'm not saying that Zara should be fired or that she does not fulfill important duties for Linden Lab, but she just is not capable of handling this role effectively.

That being said, notwithstanding the lip service from Linden Lab, I don't think it takes its wagering policy too seriously so I don't expect to see any change with regards to any of the current gambling games in Second Life and I am off to play some DMC! (Shoo goaway devil!)

That's a very honest and conservative response, and i have huge respect for that, as opposed to those who claim to know the law inside out. Like most laws, this one aswell is not black and white. The "allowed grey area" wich is based on the judgements made by the linden lab's lawyer prioir to posting their wagering-blog-policy-change concluded that as long as the element of chance is not conclusive to to outcome of the game, that makes the game based on skill. This has yet not been tested in a court, so me&you can't criminilize Lindens opinion. Even a lawyer who would, would be dishonest in claiming so, it is a good meat for serious lawscholars, but i don't believe jumping on content creators would change the linden lab policy. One can even argue that tetris is a gambling game because there is a element of chance, but i do feel safe to say that skill outperforms the element of chance.


Martin Luther King, one of my heroe's, he stood for something, for the wellbeing of the people, not for the wellbeeing of the authority (govt) nor for the wellbeeing of corporations.


The issue here is that those criticizing the content creators, who have the backing from linden labs lawyers decision, are similar to those fools that helped to work for the authority under communism. The only point of jumping on content creators of the games we named here is to destroy. Btw. my parents and grandparents lived under terrible conditions under communism in Poland, so it prety much lies in my blood to question the authority and defend the people.


As i said above, "cowards" were those who defended communism, similary is that a proper wording and i chose my wording carefully are also those who for some reason either dislike the games or just believe that the government should be more strict.


Yes i do script and do texturing and also do programming outside sl, so i guess i qualify for the content creators category, i'm also a libertarian. I believe people should mind their own business (for example if i find virtual gaysex offensive i simply ignore them, i dont call to the authority to criminilize it). My strongworded respnose was aimed at those who don't believe in the libertarian idea that "i mind my own biz, and you do whatever". I felt the way Kain was attacked in this thread was so disrespectful that it deserved a proper response.



Aside from beeing a programmer, i've also been a salseman, and a politician in the past. To reach the target- audience (in politics) or -market(in sales) you have to talk their language, i didn't do it to offend anyone, i selected my wording carefully to make my point as clear as possible.


See my response to your first response. (the area of skill% vs chance% is not black and white)




Again, those arent overnight decisions, do you actualy know how long time it took us to get a 100% answer on wether Zyngo is ok ? 3 months (that is 3 months of paying tier bills) while we couldnt make a game because nobody at the LL wanted to answer YES/NO or how much of chance% is OK'd. And now after such a long time, and no complains from US govt, nothing beeing proved otherwise in court some people want to reverse that decision. My whole point is if it odesnt affect people directly, ignore it, mind your own business and we can all enjoy having a wonderful secondlife.


I could have said more, but i'll stop it here, the point is, the times for game developers since august 07 have been a pain in the a$$. And even for the lindens, they sit in between a corrupt government (wich will pass any bill you like as long as you pay for it) and a wide variety of more or less 'crazy' people such as myself

In all do repect we don`t need that kind of example specially with the currewnt level of kids on the game as it is now. Its bad enough the forums are dieing as it is. But to talk truth like this ( even in out of the blue sence ) doesn`t help things here any better.

This is just my general opinion not targeting anybody, if you are 2 year old, or 95, or 265 years old:
The mentality we all would prefer is:

If you see that for example Kain or Aargle has misunderstood the law, why not help them, just send them an instant message ? (and even if they wont listen to you, so what ? let them do whatever they want, in worst case they get banned from sl, or worse rl lawsuit... The picking on Keins game and Zyngo was and im speaking generaly here not a constructive critique but rather a silly attempt to make them look "criminal" and thats ugly) Instead of making a negative marketing campaign on the forums, if that doesnt help consult the lindens. We're not enemies, we share thesame vision, nomatter wich part of the "axis" you sit on, either you create content, that is when you wanna make ppl enjoy your cool stuff, or if you are on the other side of the axis namely the consumer. This goes back to the argument i called "counterproductivity".

But if we continues this madness, having one class attacking another because "we are holier than thou", or "we are smarter than thou" then we'll endup with a SL that has a 1million page TOS and only login&logout is allowed (because anyhting else would have been proven as either illegal or offensive content).

Btw. if anybody wants a refreshing perspective on howto "conquer yourself" from the slavery of the mainstream mentality this is an interresting take on that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJ50uv-RL4s (wich is prety much all i'm saying here, before conquering others just conquer yourself)

far as i know, neither my avatar or real life character have made it to utube.


as far as gambling goes, if i ain't allowed, ain't no one allowed. deal with it.

Well if your game was declined by linden lab, maybe your game had a too high element of chance ? There is as i and the blog mentions a tolerance level, but you cannot go above that. Adjust the game you made to fit into the skill/chance factor that dealordecline and zyngo uses, if they then decline it then do the following:


Contact linden lab, explain them that you feel they are either unclear, or that they are treating people unequaly... that is a very serious argument. And they will listen if you present it properly. If the response is ignorant, then contact your lawyer and get her/him to represent your case against linden lab.

You can get compensation for legal fees and your lawyer will talk the talk and you just walk the walk. (even compensation for lost sales of your game)

Discussing this on the forums does not solve it, neither does it reverse linden labs policy.

If, and i'm saying IF you haven't made a game, then may i ask what is your motivation ?

im gonna repost a small rant i made on another forum

Skill games are NOT considered Gambling. no matter how you look at it. gambling involves complete and total chance. rolling dice and RELYING SOLY ON THAT OUTCOME to give you your win.

Skill games involve you to actually be good and maintain your achievement in order to win your prize.

If your in a contest to see who can pop the most balloons with 10 darts.. the prize being 100 dollars to the person who pops the most.. is that gambling? HELL NO. Thats Skill. Anything that involves thinking, placement, and strategy is skill. if you dont know how to play a game.. you obviously will do worse then the guy who DOES know how to play.
so what if your given different colored darts at random which gives you a better score.. SKILL still comes into play with your ability to use them properly.

So stop with this crap about how paying in money to win money is always gambling. there are fine games out there that require skill. Zyngo, Devil may Care, Deal, And a List of other games SPECIFICLY and APPROVED SO by lindens. Stop whining and crying and do something creative! Make your own game! Get it aproved! Do Something constructive.. but for GOD SAKES STOP WHINING!!

And its not just Zara that haves the games aproved.. Lindens DO have a lawyer that inspects the games for their level of skill. Zara isnt the only one that makes the decisions. theres a reason its called a Governance TEAM.