What are Ginko Bonds worth?

I was a bit confused, or misled, on how you said it before and what you actually meant.

As long as LL tends to influence the economy then they can be held as responsible. When LL truly steps back from governing the virtual world, then LL won't be any bit responsible.

I did not imply in any way what to do (what action to take) because LL can be held responsible.

I did not even say blame LL. I did not even say blame NP.

Logically, you can not deny LL has taken a role in this effect on the economy. Others have also taken a role in the effect. You can't deny NP has taken part. You can't deny that there was other "insider" action.

the wse group got disbanded and all members were kicked off

wse now uses emails to contact users.

Then LL better close up shop, because that makes them responsible for every failure to pay between residents.

Oh please.

It was nice of them to send a notice? lol

err do you mean that LL took part in ginko? if so you might want to rescind that kind of statement ?

I am confused. What part of being held responsible is different than assigning blame? By this logic, LL is responsible every time one resident shafts another out of their cash/services. Well hell, LL better close up shop.

actually that's the reason the group was disbanded: group messages weren't coming through to all members. I actually did get a notice beforehand.

WTF! Did I say that?

Given that you question the disband of the WSE e-mail list, you obviously had no cluse how any insider actions communicated or influenced the economy.

Here "insider" does not mean LL employees. lmfao

Well, as long as the thread is back on the front page, guess it won't hurt to poke it again. I think what keeps it alive is the prospect of actual news relevant to the subject--and in fact such news must be less than a month away.

I think it's obvious that if the 10/1 dividend isn't paid, the jig is up; last time the gambling ban provided a convenient excuse--what can it be this time? (Well, since he won't tell us what the "investments" are, he could as well say that the Peruvians are catching too many anchovies and depressing all the oil-grain futures contracts that back GPBs. I mean, it *could* be true.)

But I personally expect this dividend to be paid. And I expect enough people with enough L$s to say: "Oh, well, see? That Ginko Guy, he's quite the financier after all; look at that return! I'll give him more L$s to invest in a secondary bond issue." (Hmmm... I guess it's possible to issue a secondary with a face value five times the market price.) As long as the capital influx from a secondary issue exceeds the dividend pay-out, he wins, right?

A responsibility that one has a choice to make a change. LL can make that change. Unfortunatelty, you (and others) don't seem to see that chance for a change and just blame.

Change is good.

I am not blaming LL for ANYTHING here. I expect LL to do what it needs to in order to stay alive. That is completely separate from the unethical dealings/greed/stupidity/ignorance of the residents. I lay no blame at LL's feet at all for NP. I do wish they would ban the activity or regulate it. That change would be good.

actually, Ginko can't really lose.

Blame is blame.

Responsibility is choosing to deal with the problem, regardless of fault or blame.

They are related, and often they are confused, to the general detriment; but they are really two very different concepts.

People need to spend less time and effort on placing and shifting blame in life, and more time and effort on being responsible people, whether they are cleaning up their own messes, or someone else's..

That's one possibility. Another is that there's no intended secondary issue, and Ginko is just in full damage control mode. Either way though, I agree that the dividend is likely to be paid. That dividend isn't that significant compared to the amount of capital he collected, and the longer this charade continues, the more legitimate his actions look. Maybe the motive here is that he expects that RL reprecussions are possible, and that by stretching this phase of the scam out, he prolongs said reprecussions until something happens to let him weasel out of it completely: he manages to buy back the bonds, WSE loses bondholder information, SL itself collapses etc.

I did a lot of background research on this which including talking to some folk in real life who were prepared to trust my discretion in relationship to me asking questions about computer software type exploits as well as SL business.

The stumbling block we all faced was ignorance about Ginko's first life investments, this issue continues today, as I believe nobody has been told what real assets stand behind deposits or now the bonds.

What has happened cannot be fairly undone by Linden Labs alone. But in the light of the previous comments by Lindens CEO I do believe Linden have an obligation to prevent this ever happening again by publicly stating they will co-operate with any legal authority in relationship to the Ginko business, and take the following action


1) Linden should ban out-right financial service type operations in Second Life

OR

2) Require that any financial services activities in Second Life are solely conducted by persons or companies authorised to provide first life financial services

In the UK you are not allowed to offer financial services unless authorised by the Government (via the FSA). In the US I believe similar rules apply.

That therefore may make financial services in Second Life not legal. In short it is a similar position to that of the gaming position

Finally I define financial services as a "bank" or a "stock market" and/or in essence a unconnected third party route to enable people to invest money for potential gain

in your paragraph your not clear you talk of LL somehow being to blame and then without really clarifying it you talk of insider dealing with ginko and on top of it you also say that at one point LL endorsed them. So in not being clear it can mean just about anything

WSE meddling with ginko
NP meddling with Ginko and WSE
LL meddling with Ginko

So what did you say is what im asking because your statement kind of implies one of several things.

IN the past LL has been accused of insider dealings
With Ginko since NIck is nick well he is the inside and everything else
What WSE or LL knew is for anyone to guess
So who is the insider your speaking of and what relationship do they have with ginko?


With regards to the disband no one said a damned word so your guess is as good as mine one day I Login and i have been booted and I ask why and get no response so in that sense I suspect insider dealings with WSE like you do with ginko but in my case I"m clear about it I say nick had 35% of ginko and its possible he removed people from the wse group due to his influence.

I have received no emails or anything I just see the WSE group is now confined to "investors" or whatever in the wse and everyone is kinda in groups talking stuff. I have yet to receive any emails from WSE yet I have an account with them. Seems strange to me and no notice was issued cause i read my group notices and got none other then a boot in the rear.

He could have used the proposal tool to let us know like other groups do. IN any event it was a surprise and since I dont think i have given them my email address its going to be hard to email me (if i did i gave them a hotmail account which i never login to because i dont want emails from 2 million people that's why i like groups)

The house never loses. That's the first rule of gambling.

-Atashi

Well we know Ginko has at least some gold in Switzerland:

"After considerable research and investigation, the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company (the bullion agents for Pecunix) have decided to move all the Pecunix gold to Zurich in Switzerland. AFBC are also moving all their gold because they believe it is the safest and best country for gold at present. For Pecunix, this is an excellent decision."

According to a statement by Ginko officials pecunix.com is one of the web ventures they originally invested in (along with thegoldcasino.com).

Ah! You thought you could nail down one and say that I said it.

The WSE group was being used many times to conduct anything from business to spam. It happened often. Even the officers and other administrative roles took part in the chat.

Simply even seeing on the WSE group by some directors "BUY STOCK XXX NOW" can be considered insider efforts. Not everybody is on-line at the time in SL. For those that are on-line, there is no choice to just avoid such chatter. Everyone on-line gets influenced easily.

The policy was clear to not use the group for chat.

Before the Ginko bank run, there was a lot of chatter on the WSE groups and Ginko groups. Much of the chatter clearly had a doubling effect to cause the bank run.

One person only had to say on the groups "Ginko is ponzi, I'm being the first to pull all my money out to make sure I get it. If you are the last one to withdraw, sorry for your bad investment because you won't get your money due to the ponzi scheme." (sound familar on this thread?)

That could have been prevented by not allowing group chat, which is being done now.

We all want to stay alive.

I highly doubt prohibition will work. Once you try to ban financial services, then you can claim monopoly, which is against the law.

Option two seems doable at some point in time.

Option 3: LL should back away from being police and let the real police deal with the gambling issue. That way any right to due process can be upheld. I know not all countries support due process, but there seems to be a disagreement with jurisdiction, anyway.

Well we know Ginko has at least some gold in Switzerland:

"After considerable research and investigation, the Anglo Far-East Bullion Company (the bullion agents for Pecunix) have decided to move all the Pecunix gold to Zurich in Switzerland. AFBC are also moving all their gold because they believe it is the safest and best country for gold at present. For Pecunix, this is an excellent decision."

According to a statement by Ginko officials pecunix.com is one of the web ventures they originally invested in (along with thegoldcasino.com).

What law? You mean that of the fictional regulatory body that doesn't exist? If LL isn't running a bank or investment scheme in the absence of Ginko and the like, where is the monopoly to be had?

HUH? There no such thing as a monopoly within second life being agaisnt any law. This is completely flawed reasoning.

You could have a monopoly on EVERYTHING in Second Life and it would be legal.

You just couldnt have a monopoly on "the internet" or something like that, HUGE difference.

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They cant becuase Secondlife is seen by the Real World as a website / destination. Therefore gambling that goes on inside Second Life is the problem of the people who RUN Second Life. In other words, the Lindens.

Theres no Police involved anyway. The law prohibts the credit card companies from making payments to gambling site. LL has to deal with those credit card companies. It would be the CC companies that would have to deal with the police. Not that they would ever expose themselves to that risk.