retroengeneering and idea stealing

OMG now I feel like I'm getting into an argument with Pep.

I said:



The majority of people != all people.

And if someone were to argue that it's not even the majority of people, I would probably just concede it anyway.

I'm not going to argue, but I do want to say one thing: If SL ever goes from the way it is now, to only allowing humanoid avatars and Ken and Barbie houses, I'm ditching. The reason I don't care about IMVU, Sony's Home, or the SL clones is because I can't do whatever I want to there. I came to SL to create, not socialize.

It is categorically impossible to defeat your misgivings. If it hasn't happened by now, it ain't gonna.

Ok, but - is it enough people that it limits the open-endedness of SL, or not?

You're doing it again. I said that in RL you would "experience negative reinforcement". Approval is "positive reinforcement".
If I can get approval as a four foot ferret who steals people's socks and bites their toes, then I find it hard to believe that people who merely wish to hang out as a vampire are going to be ostracized in SL as they would be in RL.
Speaking as someone who had to learn how not to be "weird" as an adult, I have to say that "ignoring the weird bits" is definitely NOT the kind of "negative reinforcement" I'm talking about.
Love said that many people are happy living that way. You generalized that to "everyone wants to live that way". That's the unreasonable part.
Outside the UK, people think of that kind of thing as a ridiculous stereotype of the British psyche. John Cleese gets laughs when he does something like submitting to execution rather than embarrassing the executioner because people (at least people outside Britain) just aren't like that.

All I can suggest is that perhaps you need to challenge that stereotype inside yourself.

Again, you're confusing "some people" with "everyone". If a handful of people put me on ignore, I really don't care. If everyone does, well, I'll feel special in my own way. No one else has managed that (even Pep).

How do you know? You haven't even tried. Of course it isn't your responsibility so you don't have to. But there are many, many ways they could be defeated in a virtual world.

If people are doing what they want, there are no limitations.

"Putting you on ignore" paradoxically isn't the same as ignoring you. Ignoring you is not even remembering your name or caring enough to type it into the ignore list.

But we don't know that they are, as there's no way to establish that they're not "settling", and even if asked about that most people will lie to avoid a social conflict.

Actually, I'm trying to right now. But you don't perceive it. I've seen your posts show that trend in the past.

But That Doesn't Happen.

Not even in Britain.

This is that part about your pessimism again. You assume they aren't. I assume they are.

Everything, and I mean everything, can be improved. Cars, houses, people, clothes, dvd players, cats, SL, Welsh trolls. It's not a failing. (Except for the last example!)

People do that all the time - much to my continued surprise.

Yes. And I'm saying that in many, possibly even most, groups of adults in SL there is no negative reinforcement like there was in high school, but that doesn't mean that what's left is something that people are going to socially enjoy. A socially excluded adult won't usually be bullied or teased or similar, they'll just be at home every night.



Depends on what you mean by "hang out as an adult".



No, I generalise it to "enough people want to live that way that the open-endedness of SL in letting people do other things becomes limited". As I mentioned to Love, if that isn't true, Love's argument is irrelevant to the overall point.

My evidence that SL is what people want it to be is that people are here...in droves! There are many many people who have been in SL and continue to be for years. It is what they want it to be or they would leave. No one is forcing anyone stay.

My experience in SL is that lots of people come in to see if it is for them. If it isnt, they leave. If it is, they stay. Many of the people I associate with have been here a very long time and are not railing against SL.

Yumi, from what ive heard, you are still in SL. And if that is the case, there is something you are getting from it that keeps you in. Even if its questioning or being frustrated. No one does anything in life that has no pay-off for them, even if it is simply to avoid pain.

I also am friends with and know many many people in SL who are over 40. I have noticed that those who are much younger tend to want SL to give to them and if it doesnt they get frustrated or leave. For those that are only, in my experience, they handle the ups and downs of SL much more easily and dont spend a whole lot of energy doing the hows and whys...they just enjoy SL for what it gives them and the leave the rest alone. Maybe its maturity, maybe its just having lived longer and seen more, but that mellow mindset of "it is what it is" seems to work very well for these folks and they are usually in SL for a very long time.

I think part of the frustration I hear from Yumi and other folks who have been in since at least 2005, is that SL has evolved not in the way the envisioned it. I hear lots of "oldbies" saying SL should be or do this or that. Let it go people! SL is what it is...the lindens do as they please...just deal with it and move on and enjoy your SL experience.

Because obviously telling me that they can't be changed, and that I should have left, is trying to change them.

Maybe you should log in as me sometime.

One more point...maybe it is a UK thing to be soooo influenced by social pressures, but it sure isnt one where i come from...I will damn well order dessert no matter what anyone else chooses if i want it. LOL

Assuming that they are would be _more_ pessimistic, as it would mean that I really couldn't do or affect anything as everyone else is happy how they are.

Why can't it enable both types? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Only in John Cleese's England.
I don't mean anything by that because that's not something I actually wrote. But if you ant to argue with an imaginary alternate-world version of me who says the things you want me to say, you're welcome to do that. I'll just buzz off and leave you to it.

That's just silly. Again, it's not *everyone*. It's not one or the other, but never both. You are niche, Yumi. You don't represent the majority of people's views or needs. But I'm sure you do represent some people's views and needs. Perhaps they are your muse?

EDIT: Though they've probably already moved on to WoW.

And most of those who stay are creators who are making money.



It is more that I'm staying because a) I'm still interested, and b) I don't want to give up, yet. Again, I keep bumping into the people who, when I ask them about building, will argue for five hours about it and then complain that they're exhausted (or gloat that they've been building all that time) rather than simply telling me to build.



The emergence of marketing in SL is a failure, because marketing is ultimately an arms race. Apart from that, ultimately LL have tried to make it evolve in other ways but it basically has a similar feeling apart from the effect of free accounts (which was pretty major).

Nooooo... I think we'd both be happier if you logged in as me instead. Being you obviously makes you unhappy, and that's not what I'm in SL for.

I'll stick to playing a Terry Pratchett character instead of a John Cleese one, if that's all right with you.