retroengeneering and idea stealing

Hello whats the behaviour to keep when someone finds your product to be very nice and buys then retroengeneers it dismounting with copybots or other ways then builds its own version improving may be and putting at a lower price ?

This iss whats happening to me recently and its forcing due to my reduced incomes to abandon the lands I was offering for free to everyone to live in and enjoy like las Arenas Rosadas and the whole Las Islas complex , I may be forced now to drop at least 3 of the openspaces due also to te LL price rise ....

is tis something that cannot be countered ? Or is something allowed? that someone takes study your thing and then reproduce to make better and pass for his own ?

"Welcome to Second Life. A world created by residents stolen from other residents."

Open source, bah!

Being in SL always reminds me of the following quote from Zaphod Beeblebrox, driving a spaceship he's just stolen:

"’I wonder who this ship belongs to anyways,’ said Arthur.
‘Me,’ said Zaphod.
‘No. Who it really belongs to.’
‘Really me,’ insisted Zaphod, ‘look, property is theft, right? Therefore theft is property. Therefore this ship is mine, OK?’"

Pretty much sums it up really.

Is it theft or inspiration? Not to be unsupportive, but you say the person took your creation and actually improved it. I understand your anger at being used lie that but since there it has already happened, you could perhaps make it even better and sell the newer improved version of whatever.

I am sorry this happened to you, just trying to give you a different perspective since there is no recourse otherwise.

Problem is when you spen lot of time brainstorming for getting new idas and inventing even simple but effective new things that boost up the SL look and appearence and after lot of work u arrive to produce something really nice and appreciated then after some greedy ppl spot and smell the affair they come , tak the thing , retro engeneer it and make their own version seling it at much lower price too to makethe market also drop instanlty almoust ... Its people with lack of ideas that come to hike on other's ideas , but you can't call stealers couse they just "stole" an idea? ltough using and studyin urs ?

How to defend from this? howt prevent the market hit by this behaviour? now I have to close 3 sims and for ths and for the price hike of LL , sims that everyone enjoyed for free thanks to the incomes of those sales....

if it's scripted items... nod and bow, that someone bothered to copy the functionality all on their own. (then check to make sure it really can do all yours can, if not you have advertising leverage)

if it's anything else, and obviously a duplicate, shake your fist at the sky (or file dcma to LL, which has about the same odds of working in the long run)

There really isn't anything you can do, I am sorry- not unless they copied it exactly- used ur textures that sort of thing- then you could file with a complaint - has an official name, sorry, need more coffee- but if they just used it as a jumping point, I doubt you can do anything. I really am sorry

If I'm understanding you correctly, there has never been a defense against it, and nor should there be. Who was the first to come up with the poseballs idea? And why should that person be the only one who is allowed to make them? Who was the first to create a sex bed, or furniture that the user can change the colours and/or textures of, or a security device, or any number of ideas? Why should they be the only ones who are allowed to make those things?

Phil said it much clearer than I, I was trying to be gentle- but yes, inspiration is not stealing - even if it does hurt your business.

Really, take it as an opportunity, as I said above- use it to better your own future creations. We can all learn new things.

Just last night I was looking at a beautiful set of silks that left my poor attempts in the dust. I won't be copying the design of course, but I did learn where I could make improvements to my own work and hopefully come out a better designer in the end.

There is so much to learn, Naiman- don't let yourself be bitter over this- go and make yours even better! Good luck.

I have to agree with Phil, and Amara.

There is theft (copybotting and reselling). And there is seeing something, saying "cool" and trying to do it yourself.

I'm not saying which happened here. It's hard to say.

Right now, I'm working on a new house. I didn't dream it up myself. I saw a house I liked, and thought it would be fun to try and build something similar myself. When I'm done you'll be able to look at the two and see one was obviously inspired by the other. Will I put it up for sale? Maybe..depends on how it looks when I'm done. Is that "stealing"? I think not.

If you really believe you've been stolen from, your only recourse is filing a DMCA.

But if the person bought your product, and then used it as a guide to build their own? There isn't much you can do..other than keep plugging away with improvements to your own.

Agreed.

Also, the grid is a huge place. Unless someone directly copies something from another person (and I'm not talking inspiration but direct copy including textures) and then sets up shop next door, chances are the two products may not even be seen by the same customers at all. I've always believed that for the most part SL residents tend to stay in their own "orbits" so to speak.

Take a look at "Your Favorite Shop" type threads. Sometimes there are repeats of shops, but they are usually the large, extremely well-known ones.

I feel for you, but this is how things work. In RL and SL. Competition is one of the main factors influencing innovation. If you couldn't take an idea and improve on it and then sell it as your own, we'd still be driving around in Model T Fords (or whatever was first.) I suppose patents protect one for a certain amount of time to a certain extent, but the only way to really fight back is to make yours even better as someone else here said.

Wh would be the best strategy o countermesr this?

Mak a similare better posibly product , but anway the mared now has been dropped and woldrun to the low pricing .

ust go everythng freebie and cut te legs to the market

or some other thing?

The general rule of business is that you have to be either first or best. You may have been first, but someone else can come along with "best" and slide right into the top spot. Being first does give you an advantage - from there you have to continue to be best if you want to retain that advantage.

If someone one-upped you, you need to get moving and start improving.

almost every bit of clothing i've made in SL has been inspired by another clothing item. if i see something i admire, but think it can be improved with better textures - i take a whack at it and see how it turns out. most of the time, it ends up NOTHING like the idea i had in my mind, and it is SO different that it could not possibly be compared to the item i was attempting to mimick. so, as mentioned above - a nice launching point.

anything not clothing related usually just comes from the brain, and i really don't know how what it's going to be until it's finished. LOL

i have learned also to NEVER buy textures from inworld providers, as they might be stolen or copied, or lifted from the net (i can do that myself LOL). that was a very costly lesson.

It din up , just copied and lowered prices ....

Personally, I sell all my main items exclusively through SLX and OnRez. This means I don't have a visible presence in-world, and that definitely has its disadvantages, but it does mean it's marginally harder for thieves to get at my builds.

I also sell stuff cheaply, which means there's not much point in people copying my things - they wouldn't make much per item if they went to all the trouble of copybotting something I'd made. I often get asked by people why I don't raise my prices - well, that's why.

Finally, what I sell I can make pretty quickly and easily, with simple texturing work and low upload costs. My SL time is v.limited, and there's no point spending hours and hours making something which people can steal so easily.

I did consider making clothing, which was something I really enjoyed doing - but I realised it really wasn't worth the time spent on it. If you're spending hours and hours matching seams, carefully working on detailed textures and sculpties etc, and someone comes along and rips it all in ten seconds flat, makes it full perm and sticks it up in their crappy cheapo mall - what on earth is the point in creating such things in the first place? Frankly, it amazes me that people even bother making skins, which must take hundreds of hours of work.

Don't get me wrong though - I'm grateful that they do! Otherwise, I'd still look like Macha Mark 1 *shudders*

I am not sure I understand this post, but think you are now saying he ONLY copied it and lowered prices- however that is not what your OP said-


And are you sure about copybots? What is your basis for that claim?

If it was any other way you'd have a monopoly which is way more unfair than a free market. Also you'd have been charged a hell of a lot of money just to have me arrive at your sim and look around - because i'd have patented myself too Oh I think i'll patent the too (don't laugh, some Russian guy is trying it).

If they're cloning all the prims and textures with copybot or equivalent, then that's one thing, but if they're just making a similar product? That's the market at work.

I had someone apparently clone one of my products, then set up a stall selling it right across from me and accuse me of cloning his.

Well buyed my items time ago , then used copyboot to unpack open and see how wored reproducing it full perm the finally remaking the object with some new features may be more advanced may be not anyway bit different enough to claim is another thing and not a clone , altough the techinque used is the same, the idea is the same and even textures look the same altought not exactly the same ....

If that is the case, go ahead and file the DMCA or DCMA or whatever that's called- perhaps you have a case. I do believe thievery shd be challenged and prosecuted- but if it is more imitation and improvement, I stand by my prior statements.

yes but using the same technique but with a different or alterated texture may be taken by sme source could be claimed and also I know LL dont care to persecute copiers or idea stealers I guess .....

It's clothing - male and female. I think it could be reproduced using a copybot but, like anything else, it is also open to being emulated - and rightly so. From what you've said, the textures are similar but not the same, and there are changes/improvements in the other versions, which makes it sounds like emulation rather than stealing with a copybot. I've never made clothes but I don't understand where reverse engineering comes into it.

In RL, top clothes designers present their latest creations at a show and, within days, they are emulated in shops and sold for a lot less money. It's normal in RL and it's no doubt normal in SL. It isn't theft. It's competition. Of course, top RL designers have the advantage that they are 'names' and some people will pay their huge prices because of that.

I'm sorry that you suffered losses from this, but this is the way the real world works. Yes, SL is an extension of the real world, real world laws apply. Ideas cannot be copyrighted. If the design of something is not covered by copyright, trademark or patent laws, it is not protected. Anyone can look a something you made, be inspired by it and make one of their own, and its perfectly legal in RL and in SL.