The SL economy, explained

I'm frustrated that there's no meaningful way to judge the state of the SL economy, or know how many people are successful (by my definition), so it's impossible to judge what level of effort is justified.

Ever been to one of those real-life MLM meetings? I have. I went about a year ago to humor someone who got himself involved and wanted to suck me in. Forget the presentation; the real fun began afterwards when the faithful discussed their "business" among themselves. They talked using the big words and big hopes they hear in every damned meeting, but when pressed you find that none of them are successful (by any measure), and they talk about trivial amounts of money (mostly in the negative column) for the effort they put in.

SL feels like that. LL's state-of-the-economy messages feel like that. This thread feels like that. The xstreet forum feels *exactly* like that.

it is what it is, Anna.

Since a number of people on this thread have explained that they and a great many other people are in SL to have fun rather than to make money, it's quite possible that the feeling you have that this thread sounds like a group of "faithful" trying to make it big in a "business" might be originating in yourself.

OK....well, I can't help you much with that info, because I don't give a rat's azz what numbers are being reported, I just do my own thing. Those numbers, whether they are accurate or not, have nothing to do with me running the business. The only way to find out what level of effort is required, is to jump in.

I've tried a bunch of businesses in RL - never a MLM - I mean, you can calculate running the money through half a dozen different hands, and compute what you're not going to end up with. Even if I were at the top of the chain, I could take no satisfaction with feeding off of people who were "spiritually" led to believe that they were going to end up with something.

Why do you want to calculate how many are successful? To know whether or not to jump in? Is "successful" a dollar amount to you? Do you want to share what that dollar amount is?

There are successful people who pop in here and help people with answers - but I doubt that you are going to get them to post actual dollar amounts - and not really fair to ask that of them. Most of the people I know that make a living in SL do not have time to pop in and discuss it in forum.

I checked your profile - you're selling scripted gadgets? How long have you been in business? How many hours a day can you spend on it?

I appreciate the ones that state this, as it tells me they aren't talking about the same thing, but then many of them follow that up with how successful they are, despite not being serious about it. And more will say how successful they are without qualifying anything at all. When pressed you find that most of them are talking about making tier, or almost making tier, or having enough money to pay tips, or buying clothing without putting money in, or...

Most people won't come right out and say they spend 15 hours per week paying tier on 1/8 sim. They'll instead talk about vague stories of success that convince other people to keep pouring money into a pit.

I just want to know how many people put 15 (or 40) hours of effort in and get 15 hours of real-life income out of it.

Edit: I should add that it's mostly rhetorical curiosity. I don't expect meaningful answers here. I'm just expressing frustration that the money-making myth keeps propagating while nobody is defining what constitutes success. Most frustrating is that LL engages in this.

I don't know that the stats you seek exist, Anna. At least not where any of us have access to it.

On another note, I'm very curious if there are basics to starting with nothing and becoming a success.

I'm guessing it's a lot the same in SL as in RL - but I'd love to hear a quick breakdown from any who feel they found financial success in SL.

Well of course there are

Believe in yourself. If you think you are going to be a wage slave making X per hour forever... it's self fulfilling. Step. One. Fail at this and you go *nowhere*

Unlock your life. If you have oppressive mortgage, car payments, credit card debt and a 'lifestyle' of cabletvbroadbandcellphonenetflixwhatever... you won't ever set yourself free, will ya? It's not just the money. It's the *time*. You'll need enough money to fail on your ass utterly for a year or two, and still eat and stay dry.

Be prepared for severe social stigma. Because to the other 100 cubicle dweller worker bees all around you, trying to break free is just wingnut fucking crazy and YOU WILL FAIL AND OMG YOU MAY NOT GET HIRED BACK OH NOES. Think of it this way: of COURSE cubicle people will think like that! And no, you won't be hired back. Because the entrepreneur you are making richer will identify a little bit of himself in you. Congrats, you are now unemployable!

Incidentally, I could tell you horror stories of how insecure jobs actually are. I used to be an exec with a professional staff, and hired and fired based upon a percentage of whatever the sales department managed to scrape up every few months. Ah, and if the company owner wants a new house / airplane / whatever this year, he'll do whatever the hell he wants. Lost jobs? Marketshare slip 10%? Pfft, always next year, but there's a great deal on that airplane right now!

Your most successful idea will be clearly stupid and not worth doing, just ask anyone. Trust me though, it won't be as dumb as selling bottled tapwater to people with sinks for more than the price of gasoline, or selling fake land on the internet. Hmm...

Just wanna watch tv in the evenings or work sane hours? Little bit of couch potato in you? Go back to the cubicle; biz isn't for you.

Dissatisfaction is your friend. Miserable? Annoyed? Disappointed? Angry at your situation? Good! It will light a fire in your belly.

* * * * *

Well, that's what works for me.

Put it this way, it doesn't matter where someone is currently at. They could be a box boy or a dishwasher at the moment, but you can just feel the aura of assured quiet confidence coming off them and know 'this person is going somewhere' ... you all know what I mean, I am sure.

I leave this little bit of inspiration:

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=15791911

Now get off these forums and go git 'em

You know, Desmond.....you could be a Rockstar here.....market is wide open.

"I could be a millionaire if I had the money"

Clifford T. Ward

Like I already said, I'm not cashing ANY of it out, so the real-world income is zero.

And my point is that Linden Labs fantasies are irrelevant to whether or not inside the game there is an operating economy. I'm talking about the economy itself, not how well people who are trying to make a living in RL from their participation in the SL economy are doing. That there are *any* people at all able to do that is impressive enough. Not impressive enough for Linden Labs? I don't care, I'm not part of their marketing and groupthink.


However... the exchange rate between the Second Life economy and the US economy is stable, which means it's not doing so well as an economy in world terms... but not worse than the USA. It's got a much better exchange rate than Eve Online, another game with a working economy but where billions of Eve money tokens are only worth a few thousand dollars US.

I think you're reading things into what people are saying that they didn't put there. When I say "SL is a working economy" that doesn't mean "SL is a place to make real life money", it means "SL's economy does what an economy is supposed to do, reward people enough for providing goods and services that they keep on doing it". If people who are actually interested in what SL is really about... the 3d virtual world... are satisfied with buying goods from other people in SL, that doesn't mean it's not a real working economy. It just means it's too small an economy for you.

I spend maybe an hour a month on actual business. When I create scripted gadgets in SL, it's because I want to create those gadgets. Creating those gadgets is not my business. Taking one of those gadgets and polishing it to the point where I can sell it is, and since that involves dealing with users and actual time creating advertising and panels in Photoshop and running around setting up stalls and paying mall rents and the like, I begrudge that time.

I don't encourage anyone to spend any more money in SL than they need to enjoy what they're doing in SL. SL is an entertainment platform based on a working virtual economy, not a business platform that's competitive with the physical economy.

That's not what I asked. If you were to buy those linden dollars with a credit card, how much money are we talking? Are we talking hobby money or real money?

That's the problem I'm trying to get at. It took five pages of posts to figure out we're not talking about the same thing. I believe there is a lot of mis-judging going on, and it's responsible for a lot of people wasting a lot of time and effort, and this misunderstanding is to LL's benefit.

People keep asking "what does it take to succeed?" or "how can I become more visible?" or "is there someplace where advertising gets results?", and they're told "work hard", "develop something unique" and "know your market", and "keep up on the latest technology", but what they aren't told is "we're talking about lunch money".

And because it isn't the same environment. Being able to make effort and immediately get feedback is different to having to climb a cliff - and there is always a cliff to climb. Even if Big Guy/Gal's product is missing new features that could be valuable, you've still got to implement all of their existing ones before you can start worrying about that; back in the day, Big Guy/Gal got to implement those all one at a time, with feedback and reward for each one. Ok, the total amount of effort is the same, but the environment in which it is made is radically different, as is the kind of person and the kind of interest that will flourish.

Another fact you're not considering is that consumers get lazy, too. How many people on these threads have recommended MystiTool to a newbie at some point? Did you do a survey first to check that MystiTool is still the best value multigadget? I'm not saying it isn't - just that if you don't know, you don't know. Yet often, Big Guy/Gals have communities which just automatically buy their products because they want to get on with doing their thing. How many people actually shop for prim 'bits' rather than just going straight to XCite?

And why am I asking this? It's not to "try and prove it's right to do nothing". We have to ask ourselves, what is SL supposed to be? What do we do if the platform strategy fails? Will playing house still be valid in 20 years? Blue Mars's creation tools are much more limited, but will they appeal more because in a new world there are less cliffs to climb?

There is also still the point I have made before, which is that if "success" is defined as "not having to spend US$ to buy L$", then the world would collapse in a few weeks without the "failures". Yet what motivation is there for them to stick around in a world that treats them that way?

Regarding Desmond - I don't doubt that if Desmond Shang made a new alt, he could succeed. If however Desmond was _also_ somehow brainwiped of all the experience and skills he's developed in SL and then made a new alt.. well.. I wouldn't say for certain that he'd succeed. He'd have to be a different kind of person to the kind that succeeded back when he started, but he might be really adaptable, I don't know. But the point is, that "kind of person" shift _has_ happened.

Anna -

In November and December....SL income allowed me to take off work for 2 months, and spend time with my Dad, who passed away right before Christmas. I can't place a value on that.

In January, February, and March.....it allowed me to hold on to 3 houses that he and I were in the middle of rehabbing, so that I didn't lose them. Every inch of those houses had my Dad written all over them - every 2 x 4 - every nail. I can't place a value on that.

I added a couple of other ventures...Ebay was one, and time spent per dollar earned gets a better return there.... but still depend on SL to cover a few bills.....so that I don't have to go back to the rat infested, cut throat, soul-shredding business that I was in. I can't place a value on that.

Between Ebay and SL, both which can be worked at odd hours....I have whole days free to finish the houses that my Dad and I were working on. I can't place a value on that.

As far as "success"....dollar amounts that I cash out might not be success in your mind....it's all relative. But I don't measure success by dollar amounts. A lot more involved than the dollars.

I'm buying clothes and avatars. How much money could I *possibly* be spending on that? This is entertainment money, I said that from the start, that's the whole damn point here.

SL is like a year round world wide Renaissance festival in your computer. If you go to a Renfest, do you go around asking the booth operators how much they're making? Most of them are just people who live in the area and have a regulat booth where they can dress up for a month of weekends. A few make a living following renaissance festivals from one campground to the next. A very few make decent money from it running the festivals and providing services. That's what Desmond is doing in Caledon, and he doesn't even get to play with the rest of us because of the drama it would cause.

NO....it's not lunch money.

Or at least to convince you of that.

Go back and read posts 17-19.

I never spent one minute analyzing any of the above. None of that effected me.

In 2006.

No...I started the furniture store in August of 2008. It took three months to get to a profit, which is generally the case when you start a new venture.

Try another excuse?

It's not an "excuse". Maybe you climbed the cliff. Good for you! But that doesn't mean that these changes don't affect SL in terms of its popularity and value as a creative platform.

Ummm...yeah....you generally "climb a cliff" when you open a business to make a profit.

That's the struggle with these discussions here. Not just this one - 100 others before it.

You've got people that think they can click a few buttons and make a fortune, and if that's not possible, then it's the system's fault. And if I can't give you one key to make it happen for you....then I don't know what I'm talking about.

Same thing in RL. See it every day.

You need to do 100 things to make it happen. You aren't even at ONE yet.

Would it hurt?

Maybe it would make for a great vacation... laughs

Well SL isn't my first biz. I have a small, real world California tech company 'startup' (if anything that has been around profitably since 2001 can be called a 'startup' any more) and before that I was involved in other people's startups, so I got a fair bit of business experience. Biz in SL was like wrestling a hamster, after wrestling the bear that the first business startup was.

So I'd have to be wiped all the way back to the 1980's. To paraphrase Dr Emmett Brown: "I'm sure that in 2005 a GEforce 6800 is available in every corner drugstore, but in 1985 they are a little hard to come by!"


Ouch! I think I know what you were doing, and I agree, it always seems like a better profession in the brochures! Arrr!

LOL, Desmond. No....but I tried that here in SL, and was always late getting to the deck swabbing job.....the pirate fired me, and replaced me with a prettier and much more reliable deck swabber...so yeah, it's cut throat here, too.