So you want a Government in SL

Nice Cop Out Stone...BTW when are you going to answer my questions? Hmmmm?

I didn't want to have a conversation with you until you cooled down. I understand that you were upset when you discovered this forum existed. However, for as upset as you are there are just as many who are thrilled that they can finally speak freely.

Watch: I love government! I love political science. I love being an activist. I want to see how I can improve on RL government by exploring virtual government. I want sims full of people experimenting with high-level economic, political, and societal organization. I want to roll around in this forum like a piggy in mud.

I could have never said that in the General forum. Governmental threads were either ignored or turned into multipage flame wars. Forget about the signal-to-noise ratio! Now that we have this forum, we can really discuss this stuff. I don't think it's a harbinger of doom, rather a way for adults to share ideas in a safe environment.

I admit I occasionally have a problem with that. I do it mostly when I'm defensive or frustrated.

Like I said, I wanted you to cool down a bit. Plus we have all the time in the world. Now that this forum is here, our discussions don't have to be hit and run anymore. We can walk away, take some time off, and the threads will all still be here.


With that said, there are some things that are really concerning me about government in SL as well. Specifically concerning the growing disparity between those with power and money and those without. While it's easy to take aim at folks who are talking about governmental experimentation, there are some who are actually doing it right now without attracting attention. I think it would be worth our while to understand what they're doing and how it affects us.

~Ulrika~

i did answer your questions.
either you don't seem to like the answers, or your reading comprehension skills are much lower than i previously estimated.

a thing can do many things. whether or not it will is another thing.

thus i wrote "could". however, if you want, you can replace the word "could" with "can" in my previous post.

you list your fears for government. and they are valid fears.
but you refuse to see the hopes for government, and they are just as valid.

fears and hopes are possibilities.

but you have closed the door on some possibilities. why are you even debating?

We all know this.
But still this is not a strong enough point to elicit a government.
Especially one that can be manipulated like oh so many other programs like Ratings.
Ratings were a great idea until someone figured out how to game it and destroy the very foundation that it was built to represent so please



Why is a government needed when simply modifying the informational exchange tools would be a much better way to gage and to communicate with LL with it’s current society.

How?
By setting up polling tools within world when a major issue is brought up.
For instance: Making mandatory polls when a person logs in.
How would these polls be determined?
Who would advocate them being posted?
Simply put a Linden would based on setting up a forum of debate on specific topics that have come to light to linden lab that needs addressing across the board.
However doing this would enlighten quite a few of what’s being discussed.
If they fail to communicate back appropriately through those mandatory polls it will be of there own undoing and not a select panel of government officials that deem what is and what is not important.





Um, that’s what those positions are made for and I am sure that a Linden Liaison would be rather upset to know your advocating the removal of their job especially in an environment where people are loosing jobs every day. Additionally in the first part of your post did you not just say that there were not enough lindens to go around? Please explain the reasoning behind this 180-degree turn about.

Do you think Linden Lab does not have the capital to maintain these vaulted salaries?
Again this is a weak response considering LL Liaisons have access to information that none of the rest of the world has.
This makes them viable to dispute resolution and to verifying who is and who is not a valid candidate for these positions in the Mentors or Live Help.
Thus what could a player controlling these programs offer or put on the table to enhance it?
Please do elaborate.



Is this not simply a rewording of the aforementioned reply without the conjecture of removing a Linden from office so to speak?



With my reply thus far how?
So far you have eluded to increasing communications without offering a solution, latter on though you offer adding an additional layer of communications which through interpretation most times is lost on the final presentation.
You have alluded to removal of Linden employee’s without substantial reason for their replacement. Yet you offer the debate there is only so much money to go around thus eliminating an already short staff you expect for things to get better.
You have reiterated your post twice and yet offer no substance to your argument thus far.




Again, to mitigate you need authority and with authority comes power and with power considering our past experiences within the frame work of Second Life it’s truly not a viable option.



No, it may not be the only light to cast but it’s the first stepping stone in casting down why a government is not needed.



I find this rather funny considering your other post that outlines where the “common Joe” elicited a request and in turn received a response from a Linden where as none of your usual suspects for the FIC were involved. Thus I firmly believe the opposite of your statement here that you are concerned that there may be a FIC and that you hare deeply rooted in the analogy that Prokofy/Unsung or what ever their name has proclaimed.



This so far has been the only valid statement you have made thus far.
I have no argument on this statement as its something I wonder myself but the method to solve it is not a player run government over the entire world of Second Life.

Personal thoughts

I do believe you are confusing government for the ability to communicate.
But that’s the thing a government will do is add an additional dimension to communications with LL
Unfortunately, hampering or impeding any future progress due to the aforementioned layer.

Why because a government layer between players and LL is not needed. If it were then why was it not established from Jump Street?
Adding a layer will merely bog down communications versus helping it in the future.

I’m sorry I thought I had posted the points previously and apparently after reviewing the forum I may have arbitrarily set them aside until as Ulrika stated I calmed down.

Currently my understanding of your post is simply this.

A. You noted not enough lindens to handle issues as they stand.
B. You initiate that it will improve communications but you offer a layer to impede it.
C. With the knowledge that there are not enough lindens you tout that we should let players do for free what some lindens are getting paid to do thus eliminating their jobs. (Invoked twice even.)
D. You discuss mitigation, which directly points to players being in control over other players.
E. You correlate the FIC with being the harbingers of bending LL’s ear when in another thread you directly counter that with a link to other posts that show that anyone can bend their ear.
F. In other posts you initiate the claim that I don’t understand your point of view but ironically its quite clear when you’re talking in circles.

As for me my points are quite simple.

1. Poly-Sci forum opens the doors to circular rhetoric such as this
2. Player run governments where players have control over others has no place in SL Period.
3. Debating semantics of the terminology of the word “Government’ illicit heated debate at its very mention when in essence the word for the most part considering SL proper is misused.

Do these sort of clear things up for you Stone?

Shadow

Hmmmm, interesting and no reply yet.

I can't speak for StoneSelf but I can try to answer a few of these from my perspective.

All forums open the door to intellectual tail chasing. That's why I'm the kind of person who likes to not just talk about it but do it. I find that the real value of SL is that one can do things at a fraction of the cost and time compared to similar endeavors in RL. For instance, one can become a fashion designer, an automobile manufacturer, or even a architect of a city and its government.

Government is just another form of content.

There already are player-run opt-in governments which have power all over SL. There are patriarchies (Vampire Empire), there are corporatist autocracies (An-she's* sims where she is the sole ruler and profiting middleman), there are simple autocracies and oligarchies (themed sims controlled by one or more individuals not for profit), there is our sim which is a well-defined quasi social democracy (without citizens), and then there are loose collectives of individuals who choose to build together.

What SL lacks of course is anarchy, which is order without government. Because LL is in fact a government, this means that anarchy by definition does not exist in SL. Instead LL is a corporatist oligarchy (rule by a few where governmental functions are handled by different branches of a corporation) with a very light touch. This light touch is what individual libertarians in SL love and are afraid that player-run government will undo.

So, to me, saying that there is no place for opt-in player-run government in SL, is like saying that there is no room for water in the ocean. It's already there and its all around you.


* I always misspell her name so I don't summon her (she searches for it) or one of her minions to the thread to cry about misrepresentation.

I think the definition of government is trivial. Wikipedia says it perfectly, "A government is an organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a certain territory." What makes it so easy is that SL actually has territory!

Thus, any group which gets together to make and enforce decisions within a common territory (all those groups that I listed above) is a government. It's unambiguous.


I think the end of conversations like this will come when people understand that humans spontaneously form governments when they share the same real or virtual space; that government in SL is just another type of content; and that the formation and execution of an in-world opt-in government can be a worthwhile intellectual exercise in and of itself regardless of perceived utility.

~Ulrika~

Ulrika you know full and well I was refering to a Player run government that is not an "Opt-In" like N berg.
Don't try to confuse people as you already know I support independantly run organizations however I do not support a world wide collective of one.
So the long winded speach you just made was in vain considering Opt in personally run sims or governments are not even in the same ball park as a world wide discussion.
Stay focused Ulrika I know you can do it.

Shadow

The reason I made this mistake is that I don't think there's anyone here in the forums who is actually advocating an SL-wide government. It really is redundant given that LL is already an SL-wide government. In fact the only way it could exist is if LL implemented it directly, in which case those who fear it should probably take their complaints straight to LL.

~Ulrika~

a. there may not be enough lindens. there were not in the past (e.g. no eurotime lindens in the past). there probably will not be enough in the future.
b. i haven't offered anything as yet. an sl government may improve communications.
c. resident volunteers could supplement the liasons. not supplant them.
d. if there were residents volunteers, it would be wise to put some checks on them. power corrupts.
e. the fic is the paranoid delusions of a nutcase. however, i point out that sl residents do have influence over the decisions and policies of sl in small and big ways. there's plent of evidence.
f. if my points where such as your lack of understanding indicates, i'd agree with you. but you don't understand anything i've said as far as i can tell.

1. yup. your strawmen are indeed a circular rhetoric. it's a closed circle in your mind. you haven't been addressing anything i've said. you've been addressing some delusion in your mind. you really should stop arguing with yourself.
2. i think resident governments are a bad idea. but it may be a necessary evil; particularly since residents are already actually involved in making decisions and policies of sl.
3. i'm less interested in government and all so much as i am interested in figuring out what's going on and where to go from there. you can argue semantics if you want.

it makes it clear to me that if you continue as you have, that i should put you in my ignore list. you aren't arguing with me. you're arguing with some confused figment of your imagination.

here's a small clue.

words are just symbols.

they don't mean except for what people agree that they mean.

government as you use the symbol is different than how many people use the word.

dictionaries are incomplete descriptions; they aren't contracts. no one is forced to agree to any given meaning.

when words fail to facilitate communication, then try to figure out what people mean.

words don't mean. people mean.

as long as you get hung up on the word "government" you aren't going to make as much progress as you could.

"the name that can be named is not the true name.
the tao that can be spoken is not the true tao."

the map is not the territory.

the description is not the thing.

If this is your sales pitch, find another person to con.

Let's see Shadey has a Shad in it and Shadow has a Shad in it.

Does anyone else smell an ALT?

i think it's very improbably that shadow would use an alt to say anything.
he's not a coward.

that is to say i think it's very wrong to accuse shadow of using an alt.

It's also very wrong to accuse me of *being* an alt.

In many previous forum threads before your N-Berg project you advocated and wanted a SL-WIDE player government.

I don't think there's anyone here right now at this moment in the forums presently here now posting things recently who is advocating an SL-wide government. It really is redundant given that LL is already an SL-wide government. In fact the only way it could exist is if LL implemented it directly, in which case those who fear it should probably take their complaints straight to LL.

~Ulrika~

Dakota, I have not needed to stoop to the level of others tactics.
Especially, to try to debate semantics with myself, by creating an alt, to elevate my status.
I am now and always will be Shadow Weaver.
Although I am in direct contrast with many of Stones views,
he has said one thing that you can be assured of and that’s if I’m going reply to commentary I have the balls to do it myself and not as an ALT.
I have enough character about myself to be able to defend myself even if I am wrong at times.
I see no need to retort as an alt to take pot shots at people.
If I am going to shoot someone with my replies.
I want them to see it coming and who its coming from as shooting someone in the back is Cowardice and that is not even in my vocabulary as a direct description of my character.

I was staying out of these forums.
But, this I could not let go.

So take it with a grain of Salt Dakota and have a nice day.

Shadow ...the Ancient with more ass than the forums have teeth.

*awaits an appology for being called someone's alt, knowing it's not going to come*

I really hope SL isn't full of people such as yourself, Dakota. I really do.

So you've finally jumped off that bandwagon?
What brought on this change of heart?
for months before N-Berg was created you were advocating an SL-Wide government so I am very hesitant to believe a word out of you in protest of one.

Actually, no.

But of course I'd support to the death anyone who does want a government ... one which applies to them alone and which doesn't coerce anyone who hasn't agreed to its terms.

Step beyond the bounds of voluntary association though and you've got a problem on your hands.

Yes. I'm off that bandwagon.

It dawned on me a few weeks ago, that sociopolitical organizations are nothing more than another form of content in SL. From there I realized, that the Lindens imposing a single government on everyone would be analogous to requiring all members of SL to wear a single standard outfit. A single global government would be antithetical to LL's philosophy of providing a framework and allowing the users to provide the content.

It was from there that I realized that this new form of content should have a dedicated forum of its own and started lobbying for one. What's great is that the specter of an SL-wide government is gone and those who are interested in the topic have a place where they can freely discuss it. Everyone wins.

~Ulrika~

<<<rubs fingernails on chest then blows on them and looks at Ulrika..and smiles.

You'll forgive me, of course, if I take your statements with a grain of salt.
For someone who was so vehement in their ideals, seeing an abrupt change of view from you is more than slightly unbelievable.

Yes. You had an effect on me along with Eggy and Talen. You're all folks with more experience in SL (and other MMOGs) than myself and did a great job of sticking to your message and repeating it in different ways, until I eventually understood. You were right!

I think some things just take time in SL to understand. Call it "raising a newbie".

~Ulrika~

~ULRIKA~ :

A little passion?

A committment to principles?

And, the ability to change those principles when events show you another way? And publicly admit it?

~or~

A nefarious demagogue, bent on excorsizing her own, personal demons by exercising demonic control over other people's virtual lives....

<<<YOU BE THE JUDGE!>>>




(I don't share Ulrika's political opinions on many matters, but I have come to enjoy her dogged determinism, her carefully constructed if utterly wrong points of view, and her refusal (mostly) to be baited into making unreasonable statements. If she is a demon, she's a good one to have around in a debate.)