So you want a Government in SL

So you want a Government in SL

Please tell me for what reason?

I mean seriously, whats the point other than to be a self rightious indignatious assinine self important imbicile.

If this refers to any single individual...and your offended...GET OVER IT.

Sorry if your offended but maybe you need a few more holes drilled into your heads if you think SL needs a government on a wide scale bases in any form.

What I want to know is this?

What can a government do that I can't do for myself?

What can a government do that won't detract from my game play?

What can a government do that will benifit ME?

Sorry this is the short list the long one will follow soon. But I am still very adamently against any individual player having any form of control of bias against any other players.

For those POWER MONGERERS get over it if you cant manage your life why the hell would I want you even thinking about trying to manage my SL for me?

Do I sound a tad bit harsh this morning probably but you know what! I don't care as I am sick of seeing this bullshit on the forums and Linden Lab Shame on you for even putting this whole damn farce up.

So wake up people get your heads out of your collective asses (pertains to those that want a government) and smell the coffee as after this when an government is instituted the only thing you will start to smell in the morning will be political bullshit from the power hungry goon squad.

Have a nice day.

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

Im breaking my rule about posting in this forum but I had to so I could thank you Shadow.
You are echoing what so many think

Government can work in a virtual world, but it must be recognized that virtual government has no power to enforce. Lacking enforcement, the best that the government can do is articulate and persuade.

For example, if I and my neighbors decide we want a coherent, aesthetic theme for the neighborhood, we might form a neighborhood association and elect a board to draft a set of guidelines for construction in the area. The board could try to persuade surrounding land owners that adhering to the guidelines benefits everybody by increasing the land values of our properties and attracting people to our commercial enterprises. We might even institute a modest "tax" dedicated to buying a group-owned "green belt" buffer between us and other players.

That's a positive role for virtual government. But note that it's 100% voluntary. If a member of the neighborhood association decides to break ranks and construct a throbbing purple tower of passion in the center of our tranquil residential district, the "government" can't stop them. And that's exactly as it should be. If leaders cannot persuade people to follow their vision without force or threat of force, then they are undeserving of the title of leader.

Frankly, I wish the neofascist "community associations" of the real world worked like that.

That's been the question i've had all along. So far, nobody has been articulate a reason for a SL government, other than the roles already handled by the Lindens. Until then, I'm dead-set against any organizational structure that consolidates power and provides ability for any limited group of people to 'Lord' over the rest of the population.

- Newfie

But imaging for a second that we did have a government. And the 2 week old ALT account that bought land next to you, makes a giant purple tower... Maybe now something can be done about that. Instead of having "zoned" sims like Brown, have a few "newbie" sims and if people really want to keep their purple towers, they can move to the newbie sim without taking any financial hit.

Either that or hide those objects when we mute the individual... Really, how hard could it be not to render objects that belong to people on our mute list!!

This is a nobly efforted idea.

However, after 2+years of fighting the inane.
A government in SL means only one thing.
Some poor slob that wants to be in power because they are suppressed in their real lives and cannot stand up there but can be overtly vocal and oppressive in SL by hiding behind a screen name.
Sorry seen it happen all too often in other worlds where "Governments" were implimented.
These same individuals seem very coercive in SL but RL couldn't convince someone to cut them out of a wet paper bag.

I see these individuals still attached to MOMMIES apron strings going "MOMMIE MOMMIE look what they said on the forums about my government idea don't they understand they need a govenernment?" Mom says "It's ok baby your still my little man/woman keep trudging along you will get your wish just keep working on them" Government wannabe official "Okies mommie I will keep trying!"

Please also note what your saying is correct about enforcement. Thats what I am fighting as I do not want any one player or group of players having any form of control over me, my land, my build or what ever.

This isn't REAL LIFE this is Second Life and when people can get over thier petty self rightious attitudes then maybe we can consider something to form guidelines but until then. I say not just no but HELL NO! to any form of government that gives any one any form of power over others that can be enforceable.

Biggest problem is people have a real hard time distinguishing REAL LIFE topics with Second Life Topics. So many are diluted in their visions of Reality versus Virtual Reality.

Anyway I digress for now,

Shadow

Ghod Jack I have a lot of respect for you but when did the dumbasses get a hold of you?

Geesh! this is SL not friggen RL we pay for Tier for crips sake. I should be able to make a flaming asshole on mature land that I am paying for if I so deem to do so.
Sorry but this bullshit of people getting control over others will create a civil war that can't be fought and with no way to retaliate the only method would be to defy defy defy defy and then we become griefers and the next thing you know LL has banned half the populace base because of a few dumbasses that wanted to be in charge of everyone.

Sorry not gonna fly if I can help it in anyway.

Shadow.

Government is already in SL with zoned sims. I don't think it is a bad thing necessarily. The reason it isn't bad is because it's within a limited sphere of control.

Do I think that a player-run, SL-wide government is a bad idea? Yes, because they can't enforce anything. Right now we have a SL-wide government, Linden Labs, I don't think they are doing their job as a government very well though, in part to the fact that they view it as more 'police' work and not governmental work. I would like to see them a lot stricter on griefers, on extortion tactics using land, actually enforce the TOS, etc... that's for another discussion though.

Localized Government for Sim(s) I am entirely for! IF and ONLY IF it is enforcable. That way you can have planned communities with all sorts of agreed on rules. But, lets say I buy AND OWN AND PAY LL for land in the middle of a zoned community, noone can tell me what to do on that land, regardless, I own it, pay the bill on it, etc...

Now, if I own it, pay the bill for it, and bought it under a contract of some sort of agreed upon rules, and the contract was enforcable, then I would be bound by it. Unfortunately contracts are not enforacable in SL (Another Topic of Discussion) so the land must be owned by the 'government' and rented / leased to members of that community who agree to adhere to a certain set of rules. That 'player-government' is fine. Unfortunately that group or player is totally unaccountable and can make arbitrary decisions and the only thing you can do is leave. However, you also can live in a managed location where you're promised a mall / club / whatever won't go in.

I forgot what my point really was.

I guess, not all Government is bad. Localized Player Government is Okay but it has it's drawbacks and it's benefits.

SL -Wide Player Government is pointless because there is no ability for the players to enforce policy.

Haha well then honestly - how hard could it be to hide ugly builds when we put the owners on mute. It should take 'em like 5 minutes They could have that feature done & live by the time people go home tonight

See Jack your intelegent but the whole thread was about government not personal options persey. I agree with you on this aspect having a setting or listing to be able to "Mute" someone or their builds but not directly affecting that individual.

What I am against and I have articulated it for months using this same scenerio would be for you to say I hate that build it has to be removed and then you get 4 or 5 of your friends and go to the "Gov't" and force that person that built it to take it down. THATS what I am against.

Governments that have enforceable policy seperate from the world developers TOS and CS are bad news PERIOD.

Shadow

No government can exist without the power to enforce. The absence of authority and power is the absence of government.

Shadow,

Amen Brother. Peace.

I wouldn't be too adverse to seeing more and better tools for people who want to belong to a political organization. Such groups are not always coercive. I belonged to one in another virtual world where the leaders were chosen informally and ruled not by fiat but by the strength of their ideas and personalities. I've also met each of those leaders in real life, and I'm proud to count them among my friends.

As long as it's voluntary, that sort of government might be fun and useful. But the minute the government gets any teeth that can't be taken away, the maggots crawl out from under the rocks and start gearing up their campaigns. Even without designated leaders, it's all too easy to get into a "tyranny of the majority" situation where dissenters are marginalized, silenced and disenfranchised.

So I guess that while I agree with you in general principle, I do cautiously support the idea of government.... so long as it can't actually govern

Government here in SL is the most insane thing I have heard. But we do have one of sorts they are called the Lindens. Any player run government would be merely a tool for the sad empty souls to try to push some type of power over other players. Trying to force another player to play a different game from what they want and hiding behind some false pretense of an "SL Government" is one of the sorriest forms of griefing I have heard about thus far.

The problem with that is that one is putting effect before cause. It does nothing to explain why any SL governmental system is needed at all, only a possible outcome from having a government.




None of that requires an SL government to be possible. It can be done via private sims, player cooperatives, or even Linden TOS changes. Still doesn't show how an SL government would be needed to as the only way to get this to happen.



Errr - maybe a change to the SL client software? Sure dont need a SL government in order to make that one happen.


This is what I mean - putting the cart before the horse is what is being done, rather than actually stopping to see if one actually needs the horse in the first place. As such, I'm still not convinced in any way that only an SL government can provide a vital purpose that cannot be handled in other less power-hungry ways.

- Newfie

I think if you want to have some goverment.. fine, then go get your own sim and run it there if you like, but I get enough of ..well, opinions are a good thing, and like an asshole, everyone has one, but really, this is a virtual world, with much diversity into it, and I pay my dollars per month to play SL like anyone else, and I don't support the idea of some government that is set up telling me what to do.

I can get that in IRL, thanks, besides with the bickering, episodes of intolerance and such things I've seen just on the forums at times.. me trust most people in SL, including myself, to run an SL government..

to coin a bad saying.. As if.

I do believe in standards and fairness and things, but don't see an SL government as the answer or working on a large scale to satisfy most people.

False. Coercive government forms weren't much in evidence until the rise of agrarian societies, and aren't universal even within that subset. The more natural form for humans is not forced obedience to an arbitrary "superior" (a shameful holdover from feudalism and slavery), but voluntary deferrence to individuals of proven knowledge, wisdom and experience. The most common form of "enforcement" in such structures is social pressure.

Guess these forms of government got wiped out by the governments with authority.

I dont know of one modern government that operates this way.

From my perspective, about the only "governmental" entity needed within a virtual metaverse is some sort of dispute resolution center; a forum where you can have disputes mediated and/or to get redress for chronic griefing. Anything more would bork SL beyond recognition.

While your information is true in that time frame class societal standings played a great part in the "Social pressure" to comply which often times lead to "Mob" justice to accomplish adherance.

Todays society across the board signifys indivual power and being able to stand alone as an individual.

This is why there is persey no slavery as we once knew it. In Korea there are still holdovers from the fudal indentured servitude where a father sells his daughter to a caretaker. In return that daughter must work off the debt incurred by the father over a period of time and the working off can be anything from simple farm assitance all the way to prostitution in clubs.

Ultimately though SL is a new expanse in which we all are exploring. The moment a "World Wide" government is put in place you will have completely changed the face of how SL operates if that "Government" has any authority and power to enact against others within SL.

Privately run Sims, and privately agreed government agencys such as N-berg are benificial with those that volunteer to do so. However, a world wide government would no longer be a voluntary participation but mandantory and that would be detrimental.

When I say "Government" I mean "Government with Power to control" these nickle and dime operations such as the one being explored through N-Berg is done of their own accord and if I disagree with it I do not have to participate nor even venture into that region.

Some consider the discussions about government mere drama and pursue the comments of its all drama no need to worry about it.

Unfortunately, this banter and now a forum dedicated to Government goes right back to LL's stament previously that they eventually want SL to be self governed. This to me is scary alone as it means eventually LL will program in the power controls that a government needs to enforce or enact against other players.


So, as I have stated time and again. Personal run or group run governments if thats what they want to call them are fine. Let them deal within the confines of their own land. But the moment you pull it out of there and try to dictate it to every member of SL. I wll stand against it with every person I can muster as I feel that no 1 player nor group of players should dictate policy to those that do not wish to participate in their little power stuggles.

Shadow

Hey Mr Pendragon, are you from Newfoundland? o_0

Despite the genocidal ambitions of Europe, some survived the onslaught. The Baku of central Africa come to mind. And even within the Western sphere, more than a few of the communes established 40 years ago are still quietly thriving with no central authority.

One question in regard to this Paolo would players have the power to adjudicate punishment or resolve of these situations or would it fall back in LL's hands.

If its players I am totaly against it.

If its LL based on the finding of an arbitrary panel comprized of jurors like jury duty then I would more likely to be in favor of it.

This would ultimately be a Judicial system as opposed to a government.

Judicial systems are needed where as a governmental body is not.

Shadow.

To develop a player-created, enforceable constitution/bill of rights that deals with issues in a more in-depth manner than the rather superficial TOS.


Now who's being self-righteous and indignant?


Enforce laws.


It can facilitate a better game environment by prioritizing and resolving some problems within the game, based on the needs of the players.


See above.


Then a government is just the thing for you! A government can ensure, through a system of checks and balances, that no one individual becomes too powerful.


An SL government might do a better job of keeping the power mongers out of your affairs than our current benevolent overlords. For instance, what guarantee do you have that SL will not at some point become publicly traded, and subsequently make changes to please the shareholders first, customers second?


Fortunately, LL has seen an interest amongst many forum denizens to discuss these issues, and are allowing a free exchange of ideas rather than the censorship you are advocating. A good government does stuff like that.