So you want a Government in SL

I honestly couldn't make it through this whole thread. I'll continue reading in a moment but for now I had to pause and tell you that this is one of the most ignorant, hateful, caricatures I have ever seen in these forums (I've seen one worse).

Why call people names Shadow? Why paint hateful caricatures? I've seen the wonderful posts you've made in the past -- that this is just beneath you.

OK. Back to the thread. I hope things start improving.

~Ulrika~

The players will never be given sufficient power to prevent that, short of us actually becoming the majority stockholders.

In essence, what we're talking about is a group of customers of a company banding together to modify how the company conducts business with other customers.

It might be an interesting experiment, but it's not "real" in any sense because Linden Labs could at any point disband the parliament and step back in as absolute dictator. And if the player government did anything that might be bad for business (for example, by driving away the aesthetically-challenged), it's virtually guaranteed that the company would do exactly that, or at best, veto the legislation.

Corporations are not democracies, and "democratic" structures within corporations are transitory.

"Government" can be a fun game for willing participants, but if it ceases to be fun, who needs a Second Life?

See, already you found one possible way in which the players could have real power in the day-to-day operation of SL. I bet there are more.

As rough as his wording sounds (heck knows it pulled no punches), it didn't seem at all hateful or to be caricatures to me. When it comes to political (and religious/others) debates, there are always a subgroup among the whole that loudly proclaims their views, and brooks no tolerance towards opposting/differing viewpoints. That to be is the very definition of petty and self-righteous - the view that one's opinion is the only 'right' one. His wording may have been blunt, but it struck me as quite accurate.

My mother always told me never talk about religion or politics in polite company. I took that to mean that it was extremely difficult to have a mature, reasonable debate on such matters, one that will generally devolve into an argument. Unfortunately, there are many petty and self-righteous people in this debate that just reduce the whole topic to little more than a slugging match down at Farmer Joe's Pig Farm.


- Newfie

it could improve enforcement of the tos/cs by having move people authorized to do something about. there are only so many lindens to go around, and only so much us$ to hire new ones.

it could improve the flow of information between ll and residents.

it could help ll run projects like the mentors, live helpers, and instructors without having to use paid employee hours to run those kinds of programs.

it could provide an organized means of directing all the people who would love to do things on a voluntary basis for ll.

all of those things could make sl better.

however, as people have knee-jerked over and over, there is a down side to all this.

but that also means a government could mitigate these problems.

in an ideal work no goverment would be necessary, but it's not an ideal world.

but at a pragmatic level, some of this stuff has already happened in haphazard ways. so creating a structure that mitigates the downside and optimizes the upside would be a fruitful thing to do. not addressing these things, and letting the functions of government proceed without government-like structure in sl is a recipe for disaster over the long term.

* * *

casting the issue in terms of power is a fair way to light one aspect of the problem. and it is a fair light to cast.

but it is not the only light.

while i don't hold to the paranoid position that a fic exists as unified conspiratorial cabal, it is true that those people who can get the attention of the lindens for whatever reason (e.g. association, friendship, yelling the loudest, being popular, paying lotsa money, contracting for the lindens, etc) can get better results from the lindens.

this does raise the question, why should those few get the most benefit from the lindens? why not find a way to give everyone a greater voice in how the sl commons are run?

It might even work if Linden Labs were a publicly-traded company...

This is what I mean when I say that SL government doesn't have to look anything like RL government. You may say that your proposal isn't "government" but that is semantics (and when has jury duty ever not been a function of government?). Either way, this is the forum to discuss it.

edited for grammar

Of course if that happened, Anshe would probably become the majority shareholder.

when a person make proclamations like this, it become readily apparant that they wish tell people what to think, rather than discuss the issue with people.

you fear government because you know yourself. you know how you would run over people's wills by telling them what to do and what to think.

and in truth, people are very often like that.

however, not always. and a government-like entity that is planned with forethought, could mitigate such a bad result. sadly, i don't think any planning could prevent it 100%

the benefit and detriment of a governing body isn't an all or nothing proposition.

as long as you only focus on the detriment and do not admit any benefit, there can be no discussion. why do you even bother?

(Must... not... bash... Anshe....)

That would be *grits teeth* peachy.

Since you took the time to break it appart I will respond accordingly.



Sorry, its not needed especially when it is contrived of others ideas of how I as an individual should play SL. Lets understand one thing I have nothing against volutary governments established on their own properties however I throughly disagree with a full fledged govnernance of SL by players. When a governing body of this nature is established it will merely stifel the creativity level of many. Why? because the so called in-depth manor of which you speak imposes limitations. SL was designed as YOUR WORLD YOUR IMAGINATION. Where as with a government it would become thier world and you have to follow thier rules. Sorry not the sort of environment it was advertised as and if you say otherwise you are diluding yourself.


I am and I openly admit it. But, I have gotten my point across in the process. Hateful..yes, Arrogant..yes, but how many people took two steps back for a minute to look at it. Quite a few actually. Funny that you call me on it when it was almost blatent that that it was a semblence of anger that fueled the posting. Oh well, no matter the point is I have people thinking now.




And we would want this why? again this eludes back to my earlier questions which even in your follow on statements here still fall far short of answering the questions.

You say "Enforce Laws" let me understand this please by that you mean laws made up by the "Player run Government"
If that's what you mean sorry no thank you as I have stated before not you nor any one other than Linden Labs have any right to adjudicate any legalities against me.
Why am I so adament in this?
Primarly due to the short sighted intelegence I have encountered thus far in reference to SL world wide governments.


For this function to take place there is still no need for a government. Kathy Yamamoto offered up a possible solution in this regard.
But, it seems it was summarly dismissed as certain things were brought forth stating it would be the FIC as many seem to deem it now would be the ones bending Linden Lab's ears.

Again the misconception here is the definition of the word government. This type of service you are offering is more so a mediary or dispute resolution organization. Still not a government.


Still fails to answer the question.




Thats the problem checks and balences are corrupt look at the United States today. The United states government is one of the most corrupt indiscriminate organizations since the rise and fall of Rome. On paper yes all that is good and well however, it has been recited many times where this falls quite considerably short.

Now lets look at Second Life, with the ability to have multiple alternate accounts do you still think Checks and Balences would be the answer.
Sorry I think not when 1 person could with 15 credit cards effectively infiltrate and manipulate over 2/3's of a player run government with alternate accounts.

So sorry, No! a government is not an option in that regard either.



Power Mongers, actually based on the aforementioned information I just relayed this would become even more so rampent. Picture 5 people that want to rule SL. All they would have to do is infiltrate the entire government from top to bottom and boom they have control.

So sorry, No! again a government run by players is not an option.

To answer your question about the shareholders. I would make it a point to hold enough stock to block the stupidity just as I am using my opinion now to affect decisions and insights of others by stating facts whether they be pleasant or harsh.



Actually I find it amusing that you say this especially when the stance from LL after the last debacle of this form of debate LL retracted their stance on a player run government. Ironically I imagine this was put up to apease the political incumbants that so ardently want to talk politics of SL.
I speculate they wanted to weed it out of the general forums as it was becoming trite to see people start a discussion about governments only to see it get flamed to pieces.


Censorship?? where have I denoted any form of censorship. I have however denoted that
I am advocating that NO single player or Group ever be given any controling authority over other players in Second life Period.
Call them a Government. Call them a Police force. Call them what you will the moment that players have the ability to "truly" affect other players by being given the authority and power to wield such tools as Banning, Build quality, Texture quality you are asking for trouble.

But then again that goes back to the harsh reality that people cannot distinguish between a government and cooperative.
Sorry Ulrika, you don't have a government you have a cooperative.
A government has many other things to it that NBerg doesn't and one of which has been mentioned time and again and thats power to enforce laws.

Consider me closed minded if you will, consider me harsh, consider me arrogant consider me what ever you will. But my tactic got not only your attention but the attention of many.
I posed three questions which Im sorry Pol were answered very weakly as you can very well see a world wide government is not the answer.

Yes, there needs to be change in SL in certain respects. Many of which can be handled through programing efforts. However, a Player Run government with power and authority over all of SL is not an option. PERIOD.

Again I ask these questions

What can a government do that I can't do for myself?
1. Will it pay my tier without incurring any futher cost?
2. Will it run my businesses?
or will it simply tax me and put laws on me to stifel my progress?


What can a government do that won't detract from my game play?
Hmmm, I already signed a TOS does this mean that in addition I have to abide by a player developed constitution as well as a TOS and a CS.


What can a government do that will benifit ME?

Sorry taxing me,banning me, telling me what I can or cannot do because you or a government feels they know whats best for me will not benifit me.

Well folks the weekend is here its time to leave work and go back to work on moving. I wont be able to follow up on this til monday as I do not have access to the internet just yet in my new house but when I do I will be back to write more.

Sincerely, Shadow

Then honestly tell me where the benifits are please show me where I would be better off than I am now?

Examples please? as I have singled out no one.

Simply put if the descriptions and charaturizations apply then that is of the individuals doing not of mine as my information are of a generalized basis.

Shadow

I don't think there is any meaningful way that players could self-enforce any sanctions. It would necessarily involve LL involvement. The panel of jurors idea, above, is more along the lines of what I had in mind. And agreed, a judicial system better describes what I was referring to.

Advocated, rather than denoted. See below:


I am unclear as to why LL should be ashamed for opening up a channel for discussion rather than closing it down.

Are you familiar with the term cop-out?

I'm a little late to this thread, but wanted to respond to your post, Shadow. I think most people, including myself, are inline with your thoughts. SL does not need and should not have player-run government on a grid-wide application.

However, if a group of people over a sim (or two or three) want to band together and create a voluntary local government that covers the land they own - I would support this. I don't support a blanket application for SL, as we have LL and TOS to take care of us already.

Anyway.... nice post!

Pot...kettle...black

This is a logical fallacy known as "two wrongs make a right". This fallacy involves the attempt to justify or excuse a wrong action by pointing to another wrong action.

In this case the wrong action is of the same type ("pot...kettle...black", in which case it is the subfallacy Tu Quoque (a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser). Attempting to justify committing a wrong on the grounds that someone else is guilty of another wrong is clearly a Red Herring, because if this form of argument were cogent, one could justify anything.

*Whew*

~Ulrika~

The TOS has worked extremely well since the inception of SL. Had there been a player-run, grid-wide government, I'm not sure I would've joined SL. I'm not knockin' your ideas of government, just the grid-wide application of it. You have a right to be a part of a player run government, as much as I have the right *not* too.

So, we can find a happy medium, or someone's going to have to be left unhappy with the decision. I advocate a nice medium where those who want government can craft it in and on land they own through a voluntary process. Any attempt to apply it to the entirety of SL will be met by stiff and vocal resistance by me (and probably many others).


Fine. Again, on your own land - not mine, k?


Doubtful. Feedback to LL through submitting bugs and open dialogue with the Lindens helps them prioritize - not a government.


I'm sorry, is this a problem? Who's *TOO* powerful? And by what measures?


Noones in my business right now, so its seems to be working pefectly for me. Your mileage may vary..

Don't say her name or she will appear in a puff of smoke!

~Ulrika~

hahaha!

whats the point other than to be a self rightious indignatious assinine self important imbicile

Um...maybe to get some protection from the other self-righteous, indignant, assinine self-important imbeciles (and bad spellers)?

That's generally what governments are about, which is why it is best to have them by, of, and for the people.

The funny thing is this.

Player government will effectively hand power to the rich. This is because the rich have more resources with which to influence decisions.

I'm rich, so I dont personally care. However those screaming for government might actually want to think really really hard about what you are asking for.

It wont be the "politicans" who have the power. It will be those of us who bankroll them.

Think about that long and hard.

-AP

Nobody here is screaming for government. The screaming all seems to be pointed in the opposite direction.