An Open Question regarding Nations.

Why have so few others created micronations in Second Life?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation



Recently, one of our citizens (Weird Duport) did some amazing follow-up on the pioneering work of Dyne Talamasca, and updated the Caledon 'wiki'.

I tweaked the factbook-style page this morning, touching the 'wiki' for the very first time.

http://history.secondserver.net/index.php/Independent_State_of_Caledon

Pictures here: http://www.sluniverse.com/pics/Default.aspx?Search=caledon


It's been an absolutely remarkable success story. When I started out, I wondered what rare subset of Second Life residents would actually wish to immerse themselves in extremely proper 19th century society. Maybe half a dozen?

Since then, and totally not of my doing: Tea Societies, carriages and trams, fanciful airships filling our skies, and the latest - the one that *really* blew my mind yesterday: a dog breeder of all things has come!

I remember going to dog shows in my early childhood, and I can't think of a more signature sort of event for a place like Caledon.


Demand is strong, stronger than I can meet - a sim opening in *September* is wait-listed out to the moon, with no respite in sight.

Micronations and Second Life have clearly been a winning combination. I *know* people would love to shape our dream landscape on a larger scale - So why hasn't anyone done something comparable!?

An open question.

Second Life began as a Temporary Autonomous Zone. Chaos, tumult, lack of societal order.

Societies certainly sprang up - there are many within and transverse of Second Life now.

Each of the major societies offers something coherent and immersive.

Yours, Desmond, offers something more than mere coherency and immersiveness. It offers a large, documented, familiar but-not-too familiar world with rules that most people are familiar with, can learn or master (or fake) with some (but not too much) effort, a rich and detailed backstory, and -

Which appeals to people who enjoy both the benefits of social order and the liberties of individuals.

It is an egalitarian society facilitated by some of the aims and some of the methods of Victorian England.

I suspect none of the other societies have produced micronations specifically because they are loose organisations merely based on common themes of fashion, where individuals derive the psychological benefits (and detriments) of group identity - but often at the cost of their own liberties.

Yours is a group that provides people with group identity organised around the theme of their own liberties, at the cost of their fashions.

Oh, foo. I feel I need to wear a fabulous gown that cost me L$350 to visit Caledon. How terrible the cost of common courtesy.

<edit: we really need a distinctive symbol for Linden funds.>

The exact nature of Caledon compared to other themed land areas within the Grid is something which interests me greatly. I think that Ms Widget definitely has something when talking about the connections of fashion vs the connections of a greater identity. One thing about Caledon is that, while some may be attracted there on the basis of general style, a deeper sense of community quickly appears.

Certain aspects of everyday life - taking a walk along the boulevards, greeting people that one meets - which might appear just part of some sort of "RP" are in fact core to the functioning of a real community. We are polite to each other and to visitors, we congregate in coffee shops and so on - these modes of behaviour did not arise out of nowhere, they are social customs developed over millennia which kept people together, and which are now expressed within a different sort of society. Perhaps it is sticking to such customs which gives Caledon strength. A thought, in any case.

Shut up and open ten more sims, Desmond.

P2

Wow! I think you just defined 'blowing your own trumpet' there Desmond.

Seriously, how many more 'Caledon is great' threads are you going to start?

*cough* blatant advertising *cough*

Micronations? What about the Gorean sims, Furry sims, Elven sims.... even Neufreistadt. Unless you're using some definition I'm not aware of there seem to be a fair few micronations in Second Life.

I could make a case for most of the Dreamland sims and others such as Dublin and Amsterdam too.

Don't get me wrong, I like Caledon sims and have enjoyed spending some time exploring them. But I don't think they're as unique as you make out.

Loads. That's why we love him.

...

The gorean sims, furry sims, elven sims - little or no political structure. They're tribes.
Neufreistadt - definitely political structure. IMNSHO, too much political structure which lead to too much politics, too much group identity at the cost of individual liberties. A tribe that seized control of a political framework. Reputations linger, people remember their emotional reactions even when they forget the intellectual specifics. You'll need to work ten times as hard as Ulrika did - and avoid being a PR bimbo* - to overcome that reputation.

Neualtenburg Projekt: Another tribe, but with the potential of becoming a micronation. They have merely not yet expanded.

I work with yet-another-artists'-collective that is currently a cult of personalities but which could very well explode into a micronation if proper group-estate-management tools come up and the founder picks and sticks a theme.

Hell, any of the tribes aforementioned could become a micronation with proper group-estate-management tools.

* PR Bimbos spend their time talking down others' ideas instead of concentrating on their own concerns.

The remarkable thing about Caledon--and I suspect an element of what helps it to maintain its appeal and cohesiveness--is the curous fact that at the same time that there is a certain pre-determined social structure, this structure is remarkably inclusive and open minded.

People know how to behave towards one another becasue of the Victorian aspect, but with the steampunk factor--there is a willingness to accept, even embrace a reasonable alternate historical storyline, and a wide range of political, entreprenuerial, technological and social possiblities.

In a way, there is something of an analgoy to the Gorean lands--people go into the situation knowing how to behave, how to speak to one aonther, and what to wear. But there is a flexiblity to the world of Caledon that goes a step further.

An evening at my pub will probably feature some of the following--visitors in modern dress from other parts of the grid drop by and are welcomed (they'll ask questions, have a drink, maybe listen to some music), while local regulars drop in--regulars who include conventional victorian humans, a steampunk genius inventor or two, some elegant vampyrc folk, a well-dressed werewolf, dapper furred gents in their ties and top hats, kilted folk, and the ocassional Gorean or robotic guest....Dragons or tiny winged unicorns might wander through, while in the background some imaginative form of steam-powered aerial vehcile floats by. And that is a perfectly normal evening. Everyone is polite, no one acts like any of this is out of the ordinary.

So it has a structure, to be sure, but it is never exclusionary.

I'll probably create quite a few more threads - at least a tenth as many as the Neualtenburg folk have.

I love being involved, and Caledon remains a passionate hobby.


Advertising? In fact, advertising that hurts more than it helps!

I can't meet demand until at least October; my waiting list fills the next sim and part of the one after, and I have a long list to draw from for the usual come-and-go openings.

This post affords me the ability to just turn more people away.


As far as being micronations... the Neualt's certainly fit the category, but the others? You can argue that there is very little difference between man and woman too, and be largely correct. But entirely miss the point.

Vive la difference!

OK, I'll bite. Big Brother's not that interesting tonight.

From the definition on wikipedia I'd say there's very little difference between the Gorean, Elven and Furry sims and Caledon. You have several features in common: pretty themed sims, communities with a common shared interest and some shared cultural values, the potential for 'backstory' to inform and add interest to everyday life, political structures of one form or another. Now it's true that you have a flag, ambassadors to Port Neualtenburg and Neufriestadt and excellent PR but surely that's not your defining feature of a micronation?

What point am I missing?

Inclusion and integration with the rest of the grid - acting as a nation would act in a 'world' and fully allowing others to interact with it.

For example, we've sent a ship to the mainland (as best we could), we have made diplomatic contacts, we welcome such as well. We might even colonise a few places.


Many of the other themed sims focus deeply inward; Gor sims for instance often do what they can to remove all trace of 'furries' from their sims, or any element that does not fit into a Gorean novel somehow.

And yes, there are other areas that are similar to us - I greatly admire the elven sims, for instance. But the elven sims are about as few as we are, in the vastness of the grid.

Dreamland makes for a very impressive continent, but I think residents would be more likely to say "I live in a desert-themed area" than "I am a citizen of Dreamland." She may yet surprise me, and I hope she does - it would be great fun.


How big of a difference is all this? Reductionism is a powerful method by which not to hear something - one can demand physical, measurable parameters for the definition of love, for instance.

Other than some occasionally irrational acts, what's to show it even exists? And yet, outside the parameters of a debate, everyone 'gets it'.

To paint a stark example: I could forsee someone making a nation based on say, 14th century Aragon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_Empire) and having as powerful, explosive growth on the grid as I've enjoyed because of it.

Why aren't there dozens and dozens of huge, multisim nations of this type on the grid?

OK, I'll concede there might be some difference between Caledon & Neufreistadt (as successful examples of 'micro-nations') and the other examples I mentioned but I think we might be in the area of semantics and that's hardly a fruitful place for debate

Just as a point of information, those of us in the Confederation of Democratic Simulators are about to expand our territory, this may result in a larger micronation or possibly the establishment of a new one! After the success we've experienced in Neufreistadt (which is now bursting at the seams), we'll be expanding shortly by adding 'Colonia Nova' to the CDS. Colonia Nova will share the government institutions of Neufreistadt but it is possible that the Roman theme (more details on the link above) may attract a slightly different community.

I'm not sure why we're not seeing more micronations (or indeed more democratic forms of self-government) on the grid. Some first thoughts are that it might be down to the interests of people who are attracted to Second Life, I think we need a polling organisation like Gallup or Mori within SL to do some research to answer these type of questions. Perhaps we will see more micronations develop as people with the kind of interests Desmond has outlined arrive. It could be that people see Caledon and Neufreistadt as types of role-playing (though I would dispute that for Neufrestadt) and RP is more likely to lead to an inward-looking world where immersion and the suspension of disbelief are easier to maintain.

Heh, simmer down, you two. Hell, I'm pretty obviously a Neufreistadt booster and I think Pat's being a bit too snarky.

There's only a handful I would qualify as actual "micronations" (as opposed to more casual groupings). The Gor sims are kind of borderline, since the remainder of SL could safely vanish and not be noticed for many involved in them. (Not all, of course.)

However, I'd certainly qualify the Elven sims - they do have a government that's as valid as Caledon's: a monarchy, even if they recognize - as Desmond does - that in the end, you gotta keep the paying customers happy. The largest furry "island" - Furnation - is on the chaotic side, but many of the smaller ones would quality, I think - Serenity Woods, Luskwood.

I think any organized community that isn't entirely self-absorbed could fall under this rubrik, even if they don't go through the whole "let's have a flag and a government" ruckus. SL has a lot in common with Cory Doctorow's ad-hocracy, when I think about it; any agreement to live a certain way can, in a fashion, be called a government.


On a tangential point: I think many of the big splits in these groups just show how people and community are ultimately more important than names and formal structures. There was a split in the Elf Clan leadership that has ultimately resulted in most of the Elf Clan belonging to both groups simultaneously and continuing to co-operate, whatever the issues the founders have with each other. Similarly, in Neualtenburg, people have remained involved with both "branches", even though there's been ample mud-slinging by members in both groups, too. (Mud-slinging I was involved in, I'm now sad to say.) Conversely, while Anshe has the sim that is named The Forest, her name has become anathema among a lot of furries due to the incident involving that sim, with a lot of the old Forest crew starting their own sim.

While the rational anarchist in me says this is equally true in reality, SL amplifies this as it is really mindbogglingly difficult to force someone to do something. You can make it the best rational choice, you can exile them from your territory, but you can't actually put a gun to anyone's head.

Which is a lot of what Desmond is trying to say, or so I think. While the formal structure of Caledon seems a lot weaker than that of a place like Neufreistadt - whatever plans Desmond has, his sudden departure would surely cause great havok - I strongly suspect the aftermath would involve a few able people stepping up to keep the group alive in some form. Names may change, some hardware in California might get shuffled around, but the community remains.

I bet it is because they don't want all the drahma that comes with it.

When you get any large enough gathering people ISL or IRL, you will have drama. It's inevitable. Pegging that on 'micronations' is silly.

Not to hijack the thread or anything, although I suppose this is sort of on-topic, but I'm fascinated by the fact that so many people seem to want democratic governments within SL. I'm not curious as to why people want governments, but more why so many seem to want democracies (in the generic, meant to include republics, et al).

I put my feelings about democracy like this: how many people do I meet in the course of a day/week/month/whatever who I think are utter nincompoops? Why should they have any say over how I'm governed when I'm pretty sure they have trouble tying their own shoes? Or worse... not stupid people but tasteless people!

What motivates someone to say that everyone's opinion is equally valid and we'll weigh them on a scale?

And also, given the nearly consequence-free state of SL (you can't die, you can't be tortured, starved, imprisoned, etc. You can just lose money...) why aren't more people trying new and novel forms of self-government?

Probably the same reason people in SL build strip malls.

CT

Actually it seems to be a bit of a minority interest Chance . Neufreistadt is the only sim run on democratic lines that I'm aware of. Pardon my ignorance if that's not the case!

Why do some people want that? Well, I can only speak for myself but my motivations are that I own much more of a stake in my community than I would do anywhere else in Second Life. In the recent elections, for example, a group of us banded together to form a political faction (the Citizens's Social Democratic Faction) and develop a coherent plan for the future development of the community. Our proposals covered issues such as land/sim redevelopment; arts, culture and eductation; and plan for expansion. More information available on the N'stadt forums. The government party put forward their plan to the popular vote and were re-elected. But as the opposition we still get to influence the future development of the community; I have put forward two bills for consideration at the first meeting of the new legislature.

I haven't come across too many nincompoops in Neufreistadt, which helps!

And guess what, I'm suddenly departing! For two weeks-ish. So you'll get to see.


I'm on a jet to Hong Kong as of 2am Monday (SL time) and will be gone for about 2 weeks henceforth.

Yes I'll have excellent internet access, but I'm not sure I'll be near any computer I'd trust with my name and password. Names of Caledon's estate managers will be in my profile. Knowing them, they will take care of the place better than I take care of it myself.

Anything 'drama-like' will wait for my return to be resolved; the help I'm getting is a personal favour from everyone.

Maybe I'll log in and say hello with an alt or something.

* * * * *

I still wonder why so few have started nations.

Maybe there is a solid grain of truth to the "it's too much of a pain in the ass" theory.

Maybe Neualtenburg was the archetype for most people, and as such, wasn't everyone's cup of tea?

I'm still waiting for someone to set aside 16 sq. meters, name it and demand full diplomatic recognition - it would be the one perfect counterpoint to this thread that would make us all seem ridiculous.

In thinking further on the original question, of why there aren't more "micronations" in SL one might first ponder what elements should be present for the term to apply:

To be considered as such, does a micronation in SL have to be a certain size, say at least one sim?

Does it require a certain level of population?

Or rather than a specific number of residents holding property in each sim, does micronational identity demand that a certain number of the people who identify themsevles as residents or "citzens" actually be present on a consistent basis within the national boundaries, interacting with each other and visitors?

Does a micronation require self-awarenss--should the citizens have a sense of collective identity and a shared vision, AND consciously think of themselves as a nation?

Should they hold certain values in common (say, like inclusiveness and generally accepted manners and standards of behavior)?

Should the citizens agree on an adminstrative system, be it democracy, fuedalism, oligarchy, pack mentality, anarchy, clans and tribal elders, etc.?

Do the citizens of a micronation deal with other nations, groups, or entities only through an appointed representative?

Perhaps more than just simply being "a pain in the ass," the building of a micronation is based upon factors over which sim owners have relatively little control. A micronation is more likely to develop if there is a sense that population, community life, the built environment, and business activity is not static--and there are no guarentees that this is going to happen. A good bit of chance, luck and good karma seems to factor into the results that are achieved.

Perhaps I should've been more clear. I wasn't talking about established entities such as Neufriestadt, but more in the number of times I've seen people call for democratic governments within SL in the forums, on blogs and in world. To which I must ask "why should I submit myself to rule by nincompoops?" Put me in a room with fifty other people. If I say the sky is blue and they say it's red, the fact that all fifty agree doesn't make them any less wrong. What is it about democracies that makes them so appealing?

Is it the abrogation of individual responsibility? Is it some herding instinct? Is it that people are merely suggesting something with which they're already familiar?

And what about democracies makes them particularly suited to application by micronations within SL or by SL as a whole?

I'm not trying to put democracies down (too much but am honestly curious as to what drives people to them.

As the quote said, democracy is the worst form of government, other than every other form that's been tried.

Which is a cute way of saying that there's nothing democracy that makes it the best form; you've pointed out the problems with it. The greater problem is every other way of running the show is worse. An enlightened despotism only works with sufficently enlightened despots, and we're short on those.

Speaking as the person who originally made the reference to Micronations, I have to say that I never meant to say that there weren't other examples on the grid. There might be, there might not be; I neither know, nor do I worry much about it.

Nor was I attempting to be pretentious. I was mostly pointing people interested in Caledon at the general concept of a Micronation (the other way around would have involved me linking from the Micronations wikipedia entry to the Caledon article, as I suspect very few people on the history wiki are already aware of the concept yet somehow not aware of Caledon). I happened to be aware of the concept, and to be familiar with Caledon, and writing an article about Caledon.

My intent was to make the connection in the interests of being informative, and specifically, being informative as to what Caledon was, not some other place.

I know of the existence of the other places mentioned here, but I've visited few of them, none for any length of time, and aside from those with the funny german names, I doubt I'm informed enough to speculate on whether most of them might qualify or not. I'd have to go on instinct and intuition and what little I do know. I suspect that the arguments Desmond and Aliasi made would likely match my own assessments, but I woudn't know unless I researched the places more.

I'd have to say that the Dreamland Archipelago (as I call it) seems to me to bear no more resemblance to a micronation than any other random contiguous block of sims you might see on the Mainland, aside from having a more coherent theme/style on the level of an individual sim and less overall anarchy. That's based mainly on what I know of why it exists ... it's a business venture, pretty much. But I could easily be wrong about the way things are there. As I've said, I've not been there much. It's just my impression. But it leads me to a point which is probably valid, regardless of examples:

Pure business relationships is not very fertile ground in which to develop feelings of nationality (though you might get some in spite of it, due largely to human nature). Any nation-building project really wants to temper its financial goals with other qualities, like owner participation and community building (both of which Desmond has done in spades). The face of the nation can't be just some distant person that makes money off of you. Without that sort of thing, you may have a place (product/assets), and you may have people (customers), but you probably don't have a nation.

Ultimately, what it comes down to for me is: do people spontaneously feel like that they belong with the place and with their fellow residents? Are they enthusiastic about it? Do they identify with it? Or is it just the place they happen to presently live/build/sell stuff, and they could just as easily go somewhere else?

My guess as to why people haven't started more micronations within SL is because of the time involved and the loss of perceived autonomy. Most people in SL, if not just there to play, have businesses or meetings or other ventures that take up a lot of time. And though we hate to be reminded of it, this is our SECOND life and so unless we're in a bad pattern it's not taking up as much time as other aspects our lives. I know I tend to spend mass amounts of time inworld only occasionally, because real life gets in the way. That makes it hard enough to be involved in my less demanding projects, much less any desire to organize and administer a micronation.
There's also a definite sense of each individual being their own micronation. That is, that no one should tell them what to do; that their neighbors have no right to take any of their freedoms. After all, government is the exchange of freedom and money for some perceived benefit (safety, welfare, community, etc.) and few people seem to think the benefits of resident governments outweigh the costs.

Haha, good points all. But I strongly believe that democracy (especially within sims) is the best way to ensure a quality experience for all. For those of us who have read Snow Crash, it's not hard to imagine a time when governments have sims dotted around the grid, rather than in a contiguous island. People can vote with their feet (and their lindens) as to which kind of neighborhood and style of leadership best meets their needs. This seems the best compromise between the libertopia that some desire for SL, and the corporatist feudalism that others seem to be creating.
I (well actually, my alt Redaktisto Noble) created the newspaper The Democrat partially to document and support efforts to bring democratic governments and principles to the mainstream of Second Life. We recently ran an article on the incredible growth of Caledon, which is admittedly not a democracy but which functions with limited democratic principles. We also cover Neufreistadt extensively, and I hope to see the Confederation of Democratic Simulators grow.