Suggestion: Close These Forums

I'm really not sure what you are talking about, April. All I can say is, everyone is certainly welcome to interpret whatever I write in whatever way they wish.

However, I think if I say I didn't intend to say the Lindens were evil, and indeed, never actually said so, it is incumbant on others to accept that in good faith, rather than trying to insist that either I said that or it was my meaning in a fable I wrote in my own words.

I don't think it's fair to keep saying I called the Lindens evil when I never did any such thing.*

And I know that the forums are a hassle to the Lindens. I'm sure they are equally a hassle in every other online game/platform/okra out there. But a vibrant game HAS forums, and the gaming community has come to expect them. The Lindens gave them to us. I know they are a headache to them many times, and not the least because they are minimally moderated compared to the other forums I have participated in.

I've heard that Philip said, in apparent exasperation, that maybe they should just get rid of the forums.

I think that would be a mistake - I don't WANT to be dependent on some other players' forums for all my information and game talk - and I think the Lindens would much prefer to keep the forums as well.

So far, the forums are still here, so that's good.

coco

*edited to add: This isn't to say that my meaning was not that plopping down that eyesore bridge ruining everyone's land was a good thing. It was a bad thing, no question about it - and that was the whole point of the story I wrote. The residents were upset about it and it was removed very quickly. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. A mistake. You would have to think I am a total idiot to actually think that I ever did or ever WILL consider the Lindens "evil" in any form.

Who said that would be why? Anybody, besides you just now?

Or are you now implying that *I* said that?

Is that why you are now accusing me, in addition to being hypocritical, of now actually talking about a CONSPIRACY???

I'm not talking about a conspiracy which will or will not have some imaginary force of making the Lindens bend to their will. Those are entirely your words.

I am talking about my observation and my theory of it all, in that I still have a brain. My observation is other people keep trying to make other players do what they want, not me! It isn't me who suggests banning Bingo, closing down the forums, closing the Welcome Areas to all but a few, and so on and so forth.

Do you WANT the forums closed down?

Is there anything else you would like to accuse me of, Cristiano, besides being a hypocrite and using smoke and mirrors (never mind all my examples given, apparently) and causing a CONSPIRACY THEORY? Those examples ARE the concrete examples. Or haven't you been reading the forums?

Do you want the 'ingos banned or limited? Do you want the welcome areas closed down? Do you want the Linden Land closed down so that we don't have any? Do you want the forums closed down?

I personally think it's pretty much all a big power grab, and people who want to run all these things themselves, to their tastes (and run OUT other people, and other forms of entertainment), are power freaks.

I don't want that. I want Linden forums, Linden greeting areas, Linden land, and at least the appearance of equal opportunity for all for events, etc. That is the only kind of environment I want to be in.

coco

Then I apologize for taking those words for what I thought them to mean.

But this is just a suggestion just like any other ideas that some people bring up on the message boards. I really don't think anyone here is a control freak. Can you see that?

No one is saying the boards are going to go away tomorrow, but it is an idea to be considered. Perhaps Cienna should do a poll?

Just a thought. I think we are all just kicking ideas around, and everyone can bring their ideas to the table without being called "control freaks". This diminishes their ideas and is attacking the person not the idea.

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

In my experience, the only people who are 'power freaks' are the ones hollering the loudest about how everyone around them is a 'power freak'. It's called 'projection'.

All things considered, LL gets very little out of these forums and they spend an inordinate amount of time and money to have them. This and this alone brought the suggestion to bear... and I've seen very little in replies to say it isn't a good idea from the perspective of cost/benefit.

I am lightly amused that in the grand scheme of things, so few people are willing to admit there is more at stake in the idea than their enjoyment. I enjoy the forums as much as anyone (more than most, really), but it is a fact that LL time and effort would be better spent elsewhere.

My point, Cocoanut, was that if LL decides to keep the forums open or to close them, it is their decision, based upon their reasoning. If they shut them down, it is because the forums do not fit in with their goals or the health of SL. I didn't imply you said anything. What you are saying is that there are those that want the forums shut down so that people can be funneled into their site. I was asking who these people are - it certainly isn't me.



No, what I am saying is that the THEY you are speaking of is all in your imagination. There is no THEY that has the ability to get the Lindens to do what they want. Hence, conspiracy theory - you think there are people conspiring to get the forums shut down, to get tringo shut down, to get the welcome area shut down. It is simply your theory, which you acknowledged. I characterized it as a conspiracy theory because it is baseless, and you have provided no evidence of it - so your post reads like a conspiracy theory raving about this mysterious THEY.



The people I have seen speak about closing down the welcome areas spoke about it as a pontential suggestion to help curb griefing. The welcome areas are a mess at times, and it is a pretty shameful face being put out there. The suggestion that they be restricted more severely is not some power grab, as you characterize it, it is an attempt to try to clean up a problem. If you want them to remain a free for all, that is your opinion, and perfectly valid. So is making suggestions that they be restricted. You seem to be opposed to opinions that differ from yours - you think it is a bad idea, so someone shouldn't be allowed to express it or they are making a power grab?

The same goes for the INGO spam - again, it is about trying to deal with something some people feel is a problem. Other people feel it is an issue of freedom. Sound familiar?



A bunch of paragraphs using THEY over and over is not providing concrete examples, sorry, Cocoanut.



Nope, I don't want any of those things. I would like to see events go back to being more diverse and not just a fucking wasteland of tringo/slingo/bingo, yeah. It probably won't happen though, so I am not that concerned about it - certainly not enough to suggest restrictions. The welcome areas should be more policed by the Lindens - it is disgusting what they let go on there. I like the idea of funneling people to places based upon their interests after they finish Orientation Island, though admittedly, not thrilled that their first stop is the orgy ball lag fest land known as the Edge.






I pulled that quote out specifically to answer. No, I don't want them closed down - I would hate that, even as someone who has my own site (I would not want to put up with the volume of petty bullshit that goes on here, honestly). I can, however, see them headed in that direction, and it would not surprise me if the discussion forums were scrapped or severely curtailed. That would be a shame - but I am not sure how SL can continue its pace of expansion and still have these forums remain as they are - it is becoming increasingly difficult to manage effectively.

LL's time and effort would be better spent elsewhere if LL had a set of coherent assumptions about community and order in SL, if LL had a coherent objective regarding the same, and if LL had a coherent set of strategies and methods for accomplishing the objective, and allowing residents part "ownership" of the process, too.

That may or may not involve closing or modifying the forums, but the point is, the forums are a symptom, not the problem.

Eh... do we have an actual estimate of cost? I certainly get a lot of benefit-- not just enjoyment, though that too-- out of the forum areas I usually read. Feature Suggestions, in particular, usually has good discussions about directions SL might go, which I like to think might be of help to LL. (Though Feature Suggestions has had a bit more drama than usual lately....)

neko

I have to disagree. People do not act as uncivilized in world as they do on the forums. There is something about this medium that encourages rumor mongering, trolling, and divisiveness.

I have attended many meetings and events in world where people who attempt to destroy each other in the forum have very peaceful and productive discussions.

Issues that are created out of nothing on the forum are sometimes carried in world though, such as the FIC myth.

The fourms are a root cause of community strife. They should be removed.

I disagree. Having forums is not a root cause of community strife. That they aren't moderated sufficiently or consistently enough is what causes strife. Other forums DON'T allow people to carry on against each other like happens here.

The forums can, and should be done better. God knows I've been trying to figure out how to improve them, but you know - that makes me a hypocrite, doesn't it. There's no point whatsoever in throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Any game/platform/okra worth its salt has official forums associated with it.

coco

A lack of sufficient moderation may be a contributing factor to the forums becoming a root cause of strife. Short of simply instant perma-banning of any offender from both the forum and in world the effort required to civilize them would be much better spent in other areas.

Saying that the employees that do this moderation are not capable of working on coding bug fixes is not a valid answer either. Use the money spent on the forums to hire more programmers.

Yeah, a blog format might be cool. Give people more control over their own threads.

Subscribe to those who you respect and admire.

I understand the desire for bug fixes. But the forums are important for a sense of community, and that is one of the most important things about a game. It provides cohesiveness.

coco

The forums as they stand are helping to destroy that sense of community. The forums have become something to avoid for the great majority of players due to the atmosphere of hate that surrounds them.

By depending on this forum as a primary and official source of news and information you are cutting off all those who can't stand the fighting from participation in grid wide community.

Oh, I think that's a bit in the way of hyperbole.

There are two or three people who like to push the h8 but generally, they're pretty peaceful these days.

Yeah... what Blaze said, I STFU for a start....

I had my trolling days, I don't provide MUCH useful stuff on here, but I do find alot of useful stuff, and have also made some great friends, and uh.. well.. not too many enemies, I don't DO grudges.

Leave em be eh?

You know, Editorial, I think I'm in the middle of turning around to agree with you.

For whatever reason, the forums can't be fixed. They won't be fixed. They will never be fixed. They won't get better. Nothing will ever change it. It is the way it is.

It's a waste of time to worry about it, and often a waste of breath to post on them. For some, it's an outright exercise in masochism.

Cristiano, you say that doesn't matter that anyone might agree with me about ways to improve the forums. Apparently, if I come up with an idea, it has to be bad, and born of bad motivations. But I agree, it really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that I put out those ideas and people voted on them and talked about them and roughly a third of the respondants thought one or the other of the ideas was good and voted for it. That really didn't and doesn't matter in the slightest. Those opinions and those ideas, and anyone's agreement with those ideas, mattered not at all. Because they did not count. They will never count. They cannot count. No one who agreed with any of it counts. I'm serious. I tried; none of it mattered; the end.

It does seem hopeless. I've certainly suffered nothing but misery from it. Why bother? The Lindens aren't going to do anything more about it than they already have. And all they've done is make it harder for people with minority opinions to survive. There does come a point where it doesn't make any sense to beat your head against a stone wall anymore.

And if the game suffers any for lack of official forums, maybe that is a good thing. Maybe people are better off spared from the game anyway. I think I'm getting to be like Malachi has gotten to be, although for an entire separate bunch of reasons.

For me the whole situation has been hopeless from the get-go, the minute I committed the crime of sticking up for people getting piled on by everybody else, the ones at the bottom of the heap getting the stuffing kicked out of them, and it will always be hopeless forevermore for me personally for that reason. And I would do it all over again, any time, and anywhere. For anybody. I wouldn't dream of changing that quality of my long-ago formed personality to please forum goers who like to kick the stuffing out of whoever they don't like, and call it just desserts.

It's standing up for those people that got me where I am today, and STILL yelled daily at for sticking up for those people, no matter what the topic, and if you ask me, that says something about the forums right there, and more about other people on them than it ever has about me.

Never have I run into this kind of thing anywhere else in life, in real life, or on the Internet. And I think, yes, it is hopeless. That's the way it is, and the way it always will be.

There are so many good and witty minds here. But it is a mean place, too, where people outdo each other in meanness, and even think it's cool and clever, and ultimately, that takes away the wonderfulness of any good and witty minds. And they are allowed to do it. People like to hurt the unpopular posters here, or those without a fan-club chorus to give them strength, and if you get in their way, you become a victim, too. That is the pure-D fact of it.

I'm with you, Cienna, and you, Editorial. Close them down. Thus concludes my entire opinion on the forums, and my efforts on doing anything to improve them. I will, however, always be the way I am, which is always to protest when people are being piled on mercilessly, and I will never apologize for that to any one of you.

For all you know, you might end up the next person on the bottom of the heap, and then you'll be damn glad there's at least one of us like me on here.

coco

What makes any of you think you have a say? Whether or not LL keeps its forums open you should all really accept that none of you have any say. LL is a COMPANY. The company LL can ignore anything you say and often they do in favor of running their company how they want to and not how a bunch of self important forum fiends would like to see things. When are you going to get that you are all taking this way to damn serious? Go outside, walk the dog, smell some flowers, and get over yourself.





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You are kidding, aren't you? If not, where inworld might I find this place?

Because Angel, we get to have a say! That's what forums are for!

They don't have to LISTEN to our say, but we get to have one!

Anyway, I think they are pretty good about listening to everyone's say. Because they are smart enough to listen to feedback. Better than TSO for sure! Suffer under being completely ignored by EA for long enough, and . . . well, you were in TSO, weren't you? This is better.

coco

Surprsingly (or perhaps not), I have found that some of the most vitriolic posters are quite nice in game. I think it has something to do with those deep mechaniams that say "be nice to other humans at first lest you get bitten".

On these forums, only words, no faces, no simulacrum of humanness, 10 million years of social graces don't kick in. Assface!

Find one or two nice people and suddenly you'll meet 50 through them. Aside from intentional event griefers, I've had no bad in-game interactions in 2 years.

Cocoanut,

My point was that your efforts to improve what you see as a problem are no different than anyone else's, yet you characterize the efforts of others as power grabs by control freaks. There are people who want to improve the welcome area, and think the best way is to restrict access. There are people who want to improve event listings and the variety of events, and feel the best way is to put limitations on certain things. There are people who think these forums have outlived their usefulness and have become toxic.

As far as how many people agreed with you, that again was not my point, but thank you for whipping out the stats (which, I would point out, showed that 2/3rds of people responding didn't agree with you). Polls are meaningless, speaking of groups that agree with you or feel the same way, also meaningless. It is an oft used technique in these forums to try to bolster credibility. My favorite is when people speak for those who don't post ('there are people in world who feel the same way I do!'). In the end, the only person you can speak for truly is yourself. Making reference to some nebulous group of people is unnecessary and does more to harm your point than anything else.

Ultimately, the hypocrisy lies in the fact that the changes others want to make, and the reasons they want to make them, are no more or less valid than your reasons, yet they are all control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens. You can't have it both ways, Cocoanut. You have shown zero explicit example of who these powerhungry people are - you just pointed out people who want change in various aspects of SL and kept calling them THEY.

He's absolutely right.

And I'm not about to give you any names, Cristiano! First off, I am making general observations that practically anyone who reads the forums couldn't help but notice regarding the examples of things which I gave in the first place. The next move on the part of the antagonist reader/debator is practically anything but to then claim that I didn't give examples!

Secondly, I'm offering my own conclusion regarding my observation of these patterns - which occured to me the other day - that there are a bunch of control freaks in this game, who want to run these things themselves, their way, with the power to exclude everyone and everything they dislike.

How else would you explain people who literally want to stop other people's pleasure - or their ability to find that pleasure in doing something they obviously like to do - because they think it's not high-brow enough for their tastes or their view of what the game should be like?

How else would you explain people who want to close down the forums because they don't want to share them with certain others who the Lindens apparently don't have sense enough to ban for general unpopularity and "divisiveness?"

How else would you explain people who want to close off the welcome areas to any but an elite group which would, of course, include themselves?

Yes, of COURSE they sincerely think their way would be best, and best for the game.

But their way doesn't protect the rights of the individual to exist, to breathe, and that is the rub and that is the difference.

Their way doesn't include the right of all players to seek out and enjoy and support that entertainment which they prefer. It doesn't include the rights of all players to express their opinions on the forums, popular or not. The argument is made and made often that the "divisive" players should be silenced, because they aren't good for the game, when in fact, the person proposing that solution just doesn't want to allow a viewpoint contrary to theirs to be voiced and read.

That way is the way of the control freak, because they are trying to dictate what OTHERS can do, to limit the freedoms of speech and action of others, but not their own.

That last part - "but not their own" - being paramount here. It is the key difference, and the prime attribute of a control freak. They want to dictate what others can do, and more critically and dangerously, exactly WHICH others can do any of it, and which others aren't allowed to participate.

"They" being the apparently rather sizable number of posters who feel this way on many and in some cases all issues regarding restricting access to any game components to a privileged group, while excluding others.

And their way rarely includes any sense of democracy, equal rights, dignity of the individual, and/or equal opportunity for all paying subscribers and all ventures within the game. Their way is about an exclusive group, in which they play a part in the choosing of only those people or events or viewpoints they personally consider worthy.

The Lindens, for the most part, attempt NOT to do things that way. (With notable missteps.) That's why I prefer the Lindens.

All rights and freedoms and human dignity and the general level of civilized behavior are ALWAYS breached first at the individual level, with those unpopular enough against whom a case can be most easily mounted, whose human dignity can be abused with the least amount of objection from others. And then it moves up, with more and more people becoming candidates for losing their rights as well.

That is why it is so important to protect the basic rights of each and every individual, no matter how unpopular they are or how way-out their views may be. Because we are all individuals, and every individual is thus each one of us.

-----

"Polls are meaningless, speaking of groups that agree with you or feel the same way, also meaningless. It is an oft used technique in these forums to try to bolster credibility."

I already agreed with you that the whole thing didn't matter a bit! Regardless of who voted for what, or what might have been learned from the poll, by you, by me, by the Lindens, by everyone and by anyone (the inherent scientific weaknesses of forum polls notwithstanding), it is steadfastly maintained that none of it means a thing.

The truth is, I am not referring to that data in a pitifful attempt to try and bolster my credibility. That data does bolster my credibility. I would be remiss not to whip out the stats. We all would be remiss to dismiss them out of hand.

-----

"Ultimately, the hypocrisy lies in the fact that the changes others want to make, and the reasons they want to make them, are no more or less valid than your reasons, yet they are all control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens."

I would never and did never claim that changes others want to make, and the stated reasons they want to make them, mean they are all control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens.

I stated that a bunch of the people requesting this particular array of changes are control freaks, and that the game has a bunch of them.

People's suggestions and the reasoning behind them can objectively be and often are either more or less valid than what I call for. That is why I change my mind on some ideas - because I consider the points others have raised to be more valid than my own.

I am saying the pattern of the changes desired by some, and the reasons given for same, are transparently control-hungry. In those cases, yes - they are control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens. (A phenonemon that isn't even possible to cultivate in most other online games, thus new to me - thus my comments.)

The fact that I have defended others from piling on in the forums in the past has nothing to do with my observation and my conclusion. It has nothing to do with the fact that I read all these calls for bans of people and bans of games and bans of forums and bans from the welcome areas and all this other tromping on people's rights and freedoms and pronounce the game full of a bunch of control freaks.

And nothing I have said is equivalent to saying that everyone who voices an opinion different from mine on something "are all control freaks."

-----

I think part of the problem here may be that you don't realize how insulting and hurtful I consider being called a hypocrite. It's just not something people expect their friends to say of them. Probably to you it is a less emotion-laden word.

I hope we might be able to agree that we can legitimately disagree on the control-freak thing, without any of it making me, or you, a hypocrite or any other derogatory term.

coco

Yes. You're absolutely right. I'm so glad I can finally agree with you on something, Cocoanut!

This will continue to go around in a circle, so I will stop it here. I find the double standards to be insulting, Cocoa, and I don't know how else to express that.