Suggestion: Close These Forums

Simply do not agree and do not agree with your assumptions. The forums enhance the experience for many users. Valuable insights and discussion, including your input Hare. If the forums somehow detract from anyone's SL experience, they can and should avoid them, but leaving entirely seems an extreme reaction to me.

Very cute, lol!

Here's my take on things - and actually, my take on this whole game: This game is full of control freaks.

They are dying to get the Lindens out of the way in any and all respects so THEY can run things. They want to have the welcome areas and ban everybody they don't like from them, and use peer pressure and high school clique tactics to gain even more power by creating universal ban lists - "Yes, ban this player, cause see, I don't like him."

They want to get rid of the forums so they can have their OWN forums and then they can ban whoever they don't like from them.

They want to do all the discipline themselves so they can discipline the players they don't like and let the ones they do have free run of the game.

They want to get rid of all Linden builds so they aren't having to compete with that Great Player with Whom You Can't Compete, i.e., the Lindens, and continue unfettered with their greatest joy in life: The pursuit of power, and of control, of the entire environment.

They want to ban Tringo and Bingo or at least shuffle them off to the side somewhere or surely we can limit them SOMEHOW for God's sake, since of course we can't have low-brow culture that's popular, we need to force people into classes and building contests. God forbid Tringo and Bingo should enjoy the same rights as other events.

Getting rid of the forums is just another aspect of that. These people really do believe that the game - not to mention their enjoyment of it - would be enhanced if only they could get rid of everybody they don't like. Yes, yes, let's have ONLY the forums of our favored in-groups! Everyone else can go suck an egg.

I am for equal opportunity and equal access to all to everything offered by this game, which is offered by a private company, and not by a group of players backing each other in deciding who all they want to get rid of or not hear from or exclude from welcome areas or forums.

It goes without saying that the forums provide an important aspect to the game and its entire sense of community. This is the official forums, provided with at least lip service to the concepts fairness and equality of opportunity, with at least officially at its base the idea that all players are created equal, and every player is a paying subscriber who deserves all the rights thereof, until such time as they get banned from the game - NOT until such time as a group of other players decide they don't like that person.

We already have player-run forums, and I read three. In ADDITION to this one.

It goes without saying, though I'm glad someone said it, that even during the most fractious of times on the forum, they still serve HUGELY important functions, in way more than just the skeleton version some players advocate.

These are the ONLY forums that really count, and the forums that new players turn to as the official forums. They should remain that.

I'm here to play this game that belongs to the LINDENS, and when I become convinced that instead it a free-for-all mish-mash of players competing for control, I will no longer be interested. If these forums got deleted in favor of player-run forums, that would be a big step toward my quitting. I don't want to play the game of players, or go on the forums of players. I'm here to play the Lindens game, and to go on their forums, where there is some semblance of fairness.

My take on it: SL is full of control freaks who want to run the world themselves, to their tastes, forums included. And there are some of them who can't stand the idea that other players are actually allowed to get on the forums and be "divisive."

coco

At least, you admit it.

Cocoanut,

I am curious if you lump yourself into the control freaks group you are speaking of? You have spent months dictating how you think the forums should be run - to your tastes. You don't like personal attacks, you don't like this, you don't like that and you want it changed. How are you not a control freak? Answer: you are just as much one of anyone else. The hypocrisy in these forums astounds me sometimes, honestly.

I gotta agree with you Cris.


That quote is "true color".

I really never thought of it as being "control freaks" but rather people offering their opinions and sharing ideas. How else would a forum work?

Also, I don't think the people you describe are all the same people. There might be some who share one or two or even three of the same ideas, but most are individuals. I can't accept lumping everyone into one big group. Especially when you consider how diverse SL is, it would be hard to have everyone or any particular group of people with the exact same mindset.

Coco, I know you mean well with your post, but "my opinion" is that perhaps this one is just too broad and vague in it's grouping. I sense your frustration and I feel for you. But I feel, in my opinion, that no one here is "control freak", just expressing their opinons.

I hope I don't seem like a "control freak" to you. I'm willing to accept other input in a situation but just like in real life, if I don't actively participate and express my opinions, I'm handing control of my Second Life to someone else.

I do applaud your support of the Lindens and their decisions. I'm very glad you are coming around to see their role in Second Life is good.

/me hugs Coco

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

I'm exquisitely tired of "hypocrisy" as the word-of-the-month lately.

No I don't. I want the LINDENS in control.

The Lindens made the rules against personal attacks. Those are the rules I've always talked about.

Not only that, I'm not the only one who thinks those rules should mean something.

I didn't design this game, I didn't design the forums, and I didn't make the rules. The rules themselves are unclear - I spoke to that in the forum reforms - and they are enforced inconsistently or not at all. THAT is the problem with the forums. That was agreed to by I forget how many people.

Those are THEIR rules, not mine. I'm willing to live under THEIR rules.

As I said, there is at least lip service here to the idea that everyone has an equal right to these forums.

That doesn't make me a hypocrite and I haven't called you a hypocrite.

In fact, I haven't called you ANYTHING.

coco

So, LL is not doing their job then, or are they? Or do you have an exlusive on either to bolster your claims?

April, I have never considered you a control freak.

And I'm not "coming around to see that their role in Second Life is good." I really don't know where you get that idea at all. I have always pointed to the Lindens as the arbitrer of all things Second Life. I'm just not sure what you are referring to there.

It is their game, their forums, and their rules. We get to have input on them. They SOLICIT our input, even. And treat it with respect. (Unlike in TSO.) That's my whole point, in fact. Moves to take away everything Linden from SL detracts from what makes people want to come to SL, as opposed to, say, getting on some huge web site in which anarchy rules, there is no central authority, and justice never prevails.

coco

That's right, Weedy, they are not doing a good job in moderating the forums. They lack the manpower. We've spoken about this in other threads. But that's no reason to throw out the baby (the forums) with the bathwater (insufficient moderation).

coco

In case you have not noticed, LL has been enforcing the rules and taking action.

They are doing a good job under the circumstances.

Did you miss the part where I said lack the manpower?

coco

Who says? You? Do you see the what I'm getting at?

When you are a manager of LL, I might understand. But you are not, so I dismiss your point. Just because you say it, does not make it so.

OK, I see what you are saying now.

Well, if nothing else, at least its fun to fight in a different forum than Discussion for a change!

coco

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you didn't agree with the policy change and there was that thing with bridge where you called the Lindens evil.

I agree with the input part. I think everyone is putting in their input, not being control freaks, that's the part I didn't agree with.

Can you see how people are just putting in their "input" and not being "control freaks"?

I don't think this was a move to take anything away from the Lindens. I think it was just a "Suggestion" to be discussed. Kind of like your forum policy change was a Suggestion.

There's no bad intent here, just people discussing things.

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

Then stop being a hypocrite and perhaps you won't be called out on it so often. Whether you have called me one or not does not make you any less of one. You lament personal attacks, then give other people who are on your approved list carte blanche to make them because they have been wronged, or they are misunderstood, or the big bad wolf said boo to them. There is always some excuse why they are different and exempt. You want rules changed in a forum, but others who want change are control freaks bent on controlling the universe.

LL enforces THEIR rules as they see fit, including deciding what they consider a personal attack, but that is not enough for you. You have lobbied really hard to bring about changes that YOU wanted to see, including the rule about banning (which is their rule, but Cocoanut wants it changed). The funny thing is, there is nothing wrong with expressing that opinion - but apparently anyone else who wants change in one way or another is a control freak.

It is interesting how often you go to the trite "other people agree with me". So what if they do? Other people think you're a hypocrite as well. Speak for yourself - saying others agree with you doesn't add any credence to your point.

You hurt my feelings, Cristiano.

For everyone else, my post above - with examples regarding people who want to wrest control of everything from the Lindens - my points stand. I think they're control freaks, and I wouldn't want to play their game, where Bingo isn't allowed, etc., or be on their forums, where they kick out whoever they want to, or be stuck going to their welcome areas. I want to play the Lindens' game.

I want the forums to stay and I want Linden involvement to stay.

coco

P.S. I never called the Lindens evil. April is referring to a parable I wrote where I had happy frolicking peasants wondering what "evil entity" had plopped down a bridge in their midst. Which turned out to be the Lindens.

I can't remember the name of it, but it was called something about "A Tale." I would dig it up and post it here, except I don't think the archives go back that far? I can't ever find anything old.

In any case, I never called the Lindens evil and I resent the statement that I ever did. Let it be known I never did such a thing.

If I wanted to call the Lindens evil, I wouldn't write a tongue-in-cheek parable in iambic pentanmeter or whatever it was where I had peasants wondering what evil entity had done this thing.

I would write:

THE LINDENS ARE EVIL.

Then you could say I ever called the Lindens evil.

coco

P.S. Found it:

A Cautionary Tale
Come hither, all ye fanboyz and ye non-fanboyz alike, and gather around me while I tell what happened in the dark of night..

Once there were two happy lands, Wakely and Cub were they named, where the peasantry lived side by side, happy on the river banks, no care or worry in their minds. Come the evenings they’d recline in leisure on their lovely decks, to watch the sun set in the sky and the waters grow dark with night. In the day, they’d gather there to sail and swim with gaity, and frolic in peace and brotherhood in the waters from the sea.

One day the happy citizens did rise to spy something new, something huge between the banks, a build so mighty and so vast it quite took all their breath away. Not from beauty, though, alas – but from sheer size and prominence. There in their midst, between the banks and filling nearly all the space, rose a huge and ugly bridge, with pillars side by side below, so thickly placed that one could scarce squeeze in between to pass.

No longer could the peasants see the glorious beauty of the land, that made their hearts beat fast when once they spent their hard-earned cash to buy those lots down by the sea, in that inlet, once serene.Nor could they ply their boats or race their rafts or any other pleasures past, all they could do was sit and gaze at this monstrosity.

What evil-doers had arrived to place this build right in their midst? Was it gremlins, playing tricks, or angered magi striking back? What reason held by man or beast could possibly excuse this bridge, rising from one road unused, and leading to another? After all, my friends, it’s not as though there were a need for the peasantry to go by road, as flying was much more their speed.

Alarmed, the citizens began to click upon the build, either on its soaring street or its massive beams below. And then deep sorrow filled their hearts, and despair chilled their mortal souls – for lo, the creators of that bridge were those who ruled o’er all the world, whose awesome might was great. The Lindens did this bridge create, this vast and towering travesty, for reasons none could understand, to spoil their pleasure and their land.

Oh ye fanboyz and ye fanboyz not, let this tale instruct ye well: The great spirit in the sky can strike wherever ye may dwell.

coco

what

I know you wrote that as a tongue in cheek tale. But at the time you wrote it, you knew it was the Lindens and you called them evil-doers. I'm sorry if I'm not good at quibbling with semantics as I am not a professional writer, but it just seems to me that you were calling them evil. I am sorry you resent it, but that was how it looked to me and I'm sure others. Here is the exact thread and my response then.
/120/33/51038/1.html

If I had wrote a tale like that and the evil person turned out to be you, wouldn't you be upset? Oh wait, didn't someone do something similar in the forums but didn't name your name. But it upset you, as I recall.

I'm glad to see you are passionate about this subject. It appears to be as important to you as keeping the new (well not new anymore) forum policy is to me.

As to the original poster, I can see where they are coming from. With all the hassles involved in this board, and all the complaints as to how LL runs the boards, I could see where they would make such a suggestion.

On the other hand, I love the forums and would hate to see them go.

From: Seth Kanahoe

Thank you for spewing sense into this thread.

My intention was not to hurt your feelings, but to point out where yet again I find what you are saying to be hypocritical. I'm sorry, nothing you have said has shown you to not continue to be so. You sidestepped everything I said about you wanting things to be changed to suit you, even though the Lindens have set their rules (including the rule about forum/in world banning).

In your original post, you layed out broad brush examples of behavior that read more like a conspiracy theory than anything else. Where is this actually occuring? Give concrete examples, not smoke and mirrors. Who is this THEY you keep referring to? It so easy to hide behind pronouns with vague innuendo.

PS - it is no great secret that LL does not like these forums. If they are shut down, it will be because it is not worthwhile for LL, not because of some imaginary force powerful enough to make the Lindens bend to their will.

It has been consistantly demonstrated over a variety of games that player run forums are more closely managed and more closely adhere to the goals as stated (which do vary from place to place) simply because those who choose to host and pay for them do so with the vigor that only a fan can bring to bear.

Ignoring the attempts to bog the suggestion down in 'the usual', I will instead reiterate that there is far more reason to support their closing than their continuation.

The only point worth addressing in recent replies being the perception that these forums closing will somehow put an end to player to player support. Player to player support can and will happen wherever players gather. Always has, always will.

This is a really cute thread chock full of emotion and drama. It's all pointless though.

LL is not going to ever shut down these forums until SL is a memory.

What about an imaginary horse?

Congratulations! This thread is a microcosmic distillation of everything that is wrong with the forums! All that's left is a hearty "fuck you, etc" and we'll be gold.