Suggestion: Close These Forums

And I'm not about to give you any names, Cristiano! First off, I am making general observations that practically anyone who reads the forums couldn't help but notice regarding the examples of things which I gave in the first place. The next move on the part of the antagonist reader/debator is practically anything but to then claim that I didn't give examples!

Secondly, I'm offering my own conclusion regarding my observation of these patterns - which occured to me the other day - that there are a bunch of control freaks in this game, who want to run these things themselves, their way, with the power to exclude everyone and everything they dislike.

How else would you explain people who literally want to stop other people's pleasure - or their ability to find that pleasure in doing something they obviously like to do - because they think it's not high-brow enough for their tastes or their view of what the game should be like?

How else would you explain people who want to close down the forums because they don't want to share them with certain others who the Lindens apparently don't have sense enough to ban for general unpopularity and "divisiveness?"

How else would you explain people who want to close off the welcome areas to any but an elite group which would, of course, include themselves?

Yes, of COURSE they sincerely think their way would be best, and best for the game.

But their way doesn't protect the rights of the individual to exist, to breathe, and that is the rub and that is the difference.

Their way doesn't include the right of all players to seek out and enjoy and support that entertainment which they prefer. It doesn't include the rights of all players to express their opinions on the forums, popular or not. The argument is made and made often that the "divisive" players should be silenced, because they aren't good for the game, when in fact, the person proposing that solution just doesn't want to allow a viewpoint contrary to theirs to be voiced and read.

That way is the way of the control freak, because they are trying to dictate what OTHERS can do, to limit the freedoms of speech and action of others, but not their own.

That last part - "but not their own" - being paramount here. It is the key difference, and the prime attribute of a control freak. They want to dictate what others can do, and more critically and dangerously, exactly WHICH others can do any of it, and which others aren't allowed to participate.

"They" being the apparently rather sizable number of posters who feel this way on many and in some cases all issues regarding restricting access to any game components to a privileged group, while excluding others.

And their way rarely includes any sense of democracy, equal rights, dignity of the individual, and/or equal opportunity for all paying subscribers and all ventures within the game. Their way is about an exclusive group, in which they play a part in the choosing of only those people or events or viewpoints they personally consider worthy.

The Lindens, for the most part, attempt NOT to do things that way. (With notable missteps.) That's why I prefer the Lindens.

All rights and freedoms and human dignity and the general level of civilized behavior are ALWAYS breached first at the individual level, with those unpopular enough against whom a case can be most easily mounted, whose human dignity can be abused with the least amount of objection from others. And then it moves up, with more and more people becoming candidates for losing their rights as well.

That is why it is so important to protect the basic rights of each and every individual, no matter how unpopular they are or how way-out their views may be. Because we are all individuals, and every individual is thus each one of us.

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"Polls are meaningless, speaking of groups that agree with you or feel the same way, also meaningless. It is an oft used technique in these forums to try to bolster credibility."

I already agreed with you that the whole thing didn't matter a bit! Regardless of who voted for what, or what might have been learned from the poll, by you, by me, by the Lindens, by everyone and by anyone (the inherent scientific weaknesses of forum polls notwithstanding), it is steadfastly maintained that none of it means a thing.

The truth is, I am not referring to that data in a pitifful attempt to try and bolster my credibility. That data does bolster my credibility. I would be remiss not to whip out the stats. We all would be remiss to dismiss them out of hand.

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"Ultimately, the hypocrisy lies in the fact that the changes others want to make, and the reasons they want to make them, are no more or less valid than your reasons, yet they are all control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens."

I would never and did never claim that changes others want to make, and the stated reasons they want to make them, mean they are all control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens.

I stated that a bunch of the people requesting this particular array of changes are control freaks, and that the game has a bunch of them.

People's suggestions and the reasoning behind them can objectively be and often are either more or less valid than what I call for. That is why I change my mind on some ideas - because I consider the points others have raised to be more valid than my own.

I am saying the pattern of the changes desired by some, and the reasons given for same, are transparently control-hungry. In those cases, yes - they are control freaks bent on wresting control from the Lindens. (A phenonemon that isn't even possible to cultivate in most other online games, thus new to me - thus my comments.)

The fact that I have defended others from piling on in the forums in the past has nothing to do with my observation and my conclusion. It has nothing to do with the fact that I read all these calls for bans of people and bans of games and bans of forums and bans from the welcome areas and all this other tromping on people's rights and freedoms and pronounce the game full of a bunch of control freaks.

And nothing I have said is equivalent to saying that everyone who voices an opinion different from mine on something "are all control freaks."

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I think part of the problem here may be that you don't realize how insulting and hurtful I consider being called a hypocrite. It's just not something people expect their friends to say of them. Probably to you it is a less emotion-laden word.

I hope we might be able to agree that we can legitimately disagree on the control-freak thing, without any of it making me, or you, a hypocrite or any other derogatory term.

coco

What makes any of you think you have a say? Whether or not LL keeps its forums open you should all really accept that none of you have any say. LL is a COMPANY. The company LL can ignore anything you say and often they do in favor of running their company how they want to and not how a bunch of self important forum fiends would like to see things. When are you going to get that you are all taking this way to damn serious? Go outside, walk the dog, smell some flowers, and get over yourself.

Coco, this is just how I felt when you wanted to change the policy of connecting the forums to the inworld. I am glad you are coming around to see how it felt when someone wanted to take the forums away from me by reversing a good policy the Lindens made.

But when you wanted to change the policy, I took it as you voicing your opinion, not being a control freak. By you labeling others as this, while not seeing they were merely exercising their opinions as you did seems not quite right. No one tried to stop you from making your poll or trying to change the forum. We agreed with your right to do so. In that same light, you must see the ones voicing their opinion here are merely doing the same thing and by you labeling them or anyone else as merely a control freak and not another human being with a valid opinion is somewhat insulting.

I am sorry if I am seen to be attacking you. I'm trying not to. I see you as a friend and I want to let you see how I see this whole "control freak" thing. No one likes to be taken to task just for expressing their opinions.

P.S. It seems like I'm saying the same thing over and over again but I don't know if I'm making any myself clear. I'm not a professional writer like yourself, so I just do the best I can.

/me hugs Coco

It seems like I'm saying the same thing over and over again, too, and like Cristiano said, we seem to be going around in circles! Course we all like to talk a lot, and we are all pretty bull-headed in our views, so this ain't hardly surprising.

The difference, as I see it, April, is that the forum ban applying to the game now applies to everyone. And if that rule were removed, it would be removed for everyone equally. Just as before, when it didn't exist, it didn't exist for everyone equally.

These things regarding Tringo, private forums, private welcome areas, and banning people from all these places, and any system in which only certain people are selected to participate and others are systematically banned and marginalized, are things which do not apply equally to everyone.

I don't know how I can make this more clear.

I had no desire to ever take the forums away from you, and remain just as baffled as I was the first time you said this, as to how that could possibly be interpreted as my intention. Apparently you personally feel safe only with this rule in place, but it has never been my intention to take the forums away from you, and I simply can't agree to the logic of it.

Nor can I see how wanting things to apply equally to everyone in any way constitutes a double standard, Cristiano. Nor, moreover, how the fact that I hold my views, which I have acquitted well here, could possibly be insulting to you. Again, an impasse.

I think it's better - I mean, seems to me like we had some conversations before, with others, too, about this notion about being able to disagree on basic issues, without getting personal about it, didn't we, Cristiano, and didn't we once agree on that? And - is it even necessary? Can't we discuss different viewpoints without concluding that the whole problem is one of us is clearly an bad person in some way?

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As for the forum issue, I've decided that I agree with Cienna and Editorial Hare, though not for exactly identical reasons.

I feel that good forums are always a worthy investment for a gaming community, MOST ESPECIALLY for one upward bound on the growth curve. That is definitely not the time to throw in the towel on the forums. It is the time to throw more money at the forums, because good PR and a sense of good and fair and welcoming community are vital to an environment such as this. As for the money-saving aspects of getting rid of them, that is purely being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

And of course, I definitely disagree with the notion that "The benefit . . . very likely would be increased by virtue of the fact that anyone other than LL won't put up with some of the things observed here (and wouldn't have to)."

You know how I feel about THAT. Particularly since I am one of those things that some people would rather not have to put up with.

But forums which aren't consistently moderated, and in which all players do not have the solid impression that they have the same rights as anyone else, in which some players post with fear, trepidation, and are actually called pariahs out loud when they do dare to post, or suffer any such abuse as a result, are just simply not doing the job decent forums should be doing.

So if it isn't going to be reasonably well done, then I think Editorial is right that it is better not done at all. Particularly since they now carry with them the threat of being removed from the game itself for giving your opinion (which isn't good for the Linden bottom line either).

It is my fervent and unchanging position that NO ONE - none of us, not ANY ONE OF US on these forums, not my worst enemy, has ever said anything or could EVER say anything on the forums to me or to anyone - not the worst names, nothing - that warrants their removal from the game. Never. Removal from the forums yes, but not from the game. Not for just speaking your mind, however undiplomatically or however many names are called. That's just a step back to something more primitive than we deserve.

However, I don't think they are going to do anything besides throw on a draconian measure designed to scare people into compliance, which only scares the most piled-upon ones anyway. Some people practically salivate to see someone banned from the forums and from the game, and say so, both here, and to those people in the game itself.

Since being banned from the game is a pretty hideous consequence for engaging in conversation on a forum, and since some people openly revel in the possibility of getting another player banned, I think having the forums just isn't worth it. Better, too, that new players NOT see all this going on right off the bat.

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As always, I will still be available for any level of friendships to anyone who wishes to maintain them with me. Changing friendships, yes; they all always do. And I would, as always, appreciate it if all folks would refrain from calling me names in future. But still, it won't be me who withdraws any friendship unilaterally over these things, which are, after all, relatively petty conflicts in the grander scheme of things, and not worth hurt feelings or anger. Translation: I'm over it. Not thrilled, but over it for all practical purposes, and don't wish to cause unnecessary hurt feelings or anger in others. It always helps to discuss things and at least clear the air.

coco / me hugs APRIL!!

Since being banned from the game is a pretty hideous consequence for engaging in conversation on a forum, and since some people openly revel in the possibility of getting another player banned, I think having the forums just isn't worth it. Better, too, that new players NOT see all this going on right off the bat.
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You make some good points, April.

coco