Is this REALLY the REAL WORLD Forum? What happened to the Nick Berg thread?

How easy it is for us to place blame...

Emotions are powerful.

Aside from the cat family, no animal delights in tormenting and torturing other animals before they kill them; the way that humans do so often.

Uhm, I think wolverines do that too.

I know that when I post short little messages without detail that I often have some sort of motive beyond the literal meaning of what I said. Sorry Siggy, but that's how I took your terse comment in the previous thread. I appreciate the clarification that you provided, but I think that you should expect to get questioined when you provide such a cryptic response in a forum.

So here is the next response that isn't quite clear. Please clarify your view. My initial response to your post left me saying "yeah, so what's the point philosophy professor?"

here it is, thanks to Kariana


WTF do you mean by that? I can no longer tolorate these drive-by posts. If you have something to say, freaking say it. I shouldn't need to be part of a secret society and have a special decoder ring to make sense of these kinds of comments.

Personally, I think it shows some sort of arrogant cowardice, like you are proud that you aren't being clear and nobody can pin you to a certain point of view unless they beat it out of you...then you yell "bully"

I would like to respond because I am not hiding behind a driveby post...I simply feel that in most cases, a few words can say more than many. However, I would like to point out that I have posted exactly 14 (now 15) times on this board. So your contention that my cowardice will be called out and I will yell "Bully" is unfounded.

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I meant exactly what I posted. Emotions are extremely powerful. They drive people to say and do things that they would not under "ordinary" circumstances. Unfortunately, when it comes to things like murder and terrorism, and really anything that our normal, everyday minds can't comprehend, one of the easiest ways to handle things is to figure out a reason why they happened. And what is the best way to find a reason? Find a cause. And how can an emotionally charged mind do that without placing blame?

It is a pattern. It is not wrong, or bad, or ignorant. It is simply the mind trying to cope.

I don't know about your (Champie) situation, but I know that my life is very far removed from almost everything that is going on in Iraq, or even the events of September 11th. I do not know a single soldier overseas; I didn't know a single person in New York, D.C., or western PA, or on any of those planes on September 11, 2001; I don't know any of the prisoners or guards at the Abu Ghraib prison. The closest I have come to any of this personally hitting me is that Nick Berg was from my hometown. And still, I didn't know him, his family, or anyone who was close to him.

Being in such a detached position, I don't have any firsthand knowledge on which to base an emotional stance. I see it also in the people around me. Not just in this situation, but with any extraordinary event.

Anyway, now I'm starting to ramble, which is exactly why my original post was so brief in the first place. If you still feel as though I am an "arrogant coward", and you feel the need to "beat it out" of me, then know this: I don't think you're a bully. I simply think that you are an emotionally charged person trying to cope.

Jellin, I still don't agree that they are all trash, but I don't have any hard evidence to the contrary right now. I'll see if I can find anything...



Right Champie, this could have multiple meanings.

I still say that if you're a fence sitter or you actually say we should get OUT of Iraq right now you should watch this and learn for yourself what kind of bastards we're fighting against here. They can't be reasoned with, and they can't be stopped without force. Think about the consequences of leaving the middle east now. Is it really that hard to figure out how screwed up things would be if we left now?

I'm terrified that so many people are in favor of resuming exactly the same tactics that brought us people like Bin Laden. Sure you can say we should try "different" tactics, but I'd like to know what those tactics are. There are times for diplomacy and times for the use of force, and this is not a time for diplomacy.

This "war against the war on terror" must be entirely political bull--I can't make sense out of it no matter how hard I try. I'm convinced that no matter what course of action was taken to fight terrorism, it would be criticized by the left just so they can get their guy back in the house. I voted for Clinton in 96; I'm not exactly Rush Limbaugh here--I'm not attacking what liberals are saying now because I don't like them--but I really think they are crossing MAJOR lines in behavior and tactics. Thanks for helping Ted Kennedys of America, calling Iraq another Vietnam REALLY helps our troops out.

If Iraq does become another Vietnam and the troops start losing home support (it already may be happening with the prisoner abuse reaction), it won't be the "war monger's" fault.

You got that right Garoad. I can't stand Ted Kennedy--his remarks border on treason and can be used very effectively as anti-American propaganda by anti-American Arab media. Did any of you hear or read what he said this past Monday? NO! What is wrong with mainstream American media?! This is what he said: "Shamefully we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management, U.S. management" This senator has the audacity to compare our whole military to Saddam's torture brigades.

Sorry I went off-topic but it's left-wing liberals like Kennedy who are making it harder for our troops in Iraq. Is Kennedy helping the war effort?? Hell no! Al-Qaida and Al-Sadr can only capitalize on such statements.

And whoever believes that the decapitation of Nick Berg was revenge for the abuses that happened in Abu Ghraib needs a reality check. Al-Qaida and followers of Al-Sadr have killed innocents before for no reason (anyone remember the charred bodies some weeks ago, the slaying of Daniel Pearl or 9/11?) Dang it, I forgot about the Palestinians purposely kill children. . .

When are most Americans going to understand that we need to get tougher on those mudda-------? These guys use their "holy sites" as forts. That is so ironic and yet we can't bomb them out of there because the left and the Europeans are going to call us insensitive barbarians. Let's forget about what others are going to say (we'll be criticized regardless of what we do) and win this war.

Jellin, I feel for you. I passed the same "rage point" some time ago, myself: when I heard that, in response to the 9/11 attacks, the Palestinians in the West Bank and Lebanon were dancing in the streets, giving out candy, firing their AK's in the air. "Thousands of Americans dead! Allahu Akhbar, God is Great!"

The murder of Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg could be understood as the work of a few psychotic individuals. But here, the whole neighborhood turned out. The hatred, the pathology, was that widespread. There was something deeply wrong in Arab society, and if we were ever to be safe again, Arab society had to change. It wasn't a matter of cultural arrogance or of missionary zeal; it was a simple matter of self-preservation.

That said, Jellin, let me give you some cause for hope:

The last Baathist stronghold, Fallujah, is now being jointly patrolled by US Marines and the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps. The Iranian-supported Shi'ite cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, has been driven out of his former stronghold in Baghdad, and is increasingly isolated and hated by the locals in Najaf. Al-Sadr's sponsors in Iran have begun to distance themselves from him. And there seems to be a group of Najaf natives, calling themselves the Thulfiqar Army, that have taken up arms against al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army.

For decades in Iraq, the price of picking the wrong side in a political struggle was death -- not just for the individual, but for the his whole family. And we (America) did promise to support them once before in rebellion, and thousands died when we reneged on that promise. (And may George H.W. Bush rot in hell for that betrayal.) It's only human that, having been brutalized and betrayed by all sides, they're not eager to step forward now. Yet to their credit, some still do anyway. (And they would suffer horribly for the "crime" of having helped us if we were to pull out now.)

(EDIT: Corrected Nick Berg's name.)

I thought I was pretty straight forward myself - Some of my comments are short because theres not point waffling on.. I speak my mind and get on with things.. doubly so when what I'm saying is (well in my opinion anyway) straight forward.

If people want to read into it and try and find something deeper, that's thier perogative.. I've got brother-in-law who is a professor of literary critisism at Tulane University, so I'm used to that as a rule

Example conversation:

Did you read Delillo's White Noise?

Yah, really good book..

...Oh you must mean that in regards to (1/2 hour conversation on the various use of literary constructs as metaphors to something else and how the the use of Hitler is a social commentary on this and that and the other...)

.... No, actually I meant it was a really good book. I enjoyed reading it..

...oh... ok....

As the man I was named for would say 'Sometimes a cigar, is only a cigar'

So arrogant cowardice on not being clear? nah -- I thought I was pretty clear -- but then , don't try reading too deep into something I say and then foul when theres nothing psuedo-intellectual to be found...
.. No need to beat anything out of me, ask and thou shalt receive -- just don't be disapointed when it turns out to be what I said in the first place...

Siggy

After reading this thread, I can't help wondering whether any Americans have seen the interviews with Nick Berg's parents? Or are you just ignoring his father's comments?

Kariana - some good comments. Yes, atrocities like this one stir up the emotions, and lead people to suggest that a whole group of people should be killed - which of course puts them on a similar level as those who committed the atrocity in the first place. Dehumanising your enemy is one of the ways to make it easier to kill them, but of course, it degrades you at the same time.

This is one of those situations where it is vital for reason, rather than emotion, to prevail. Without reason we are nothing. And reason demands that we are as aware of our own side's failings as well as that of the enemy. Indeed, the worse the acts committed against us, the more important it is that we act with reason, restraint and justice.

Because of the atrocities committed, it doesn't mean that it's all right if we commit some of our own. That kind of thinking has been going on since the dawn of human history, and it has led to widescale human suffering again and again and again.

The more uncivilised the acts that are committed against us, the more vital it is for us to retain our own civilisation. It's not very satisfying emotionally, but it's the only way to preserve our own moral standards and not descend into the mire to join those who have degraded themselves.

The Wombat trolls at Midnight!

"New" tactics? NUKES I tell ya...Nuke 'em!

Nuking might mess up the oil. Carpet bombings the ticket.

Selador, the jihadis seem to be determined to dehumanize themselves. We're not doing it to them. These aren't trumped-up fictional horrors (like stories about the depravity of "the Huns" in WWI); it all really happened, and they even seem to be proud of their psychopathy.

There is certainly a danger of painting with too broad a brush: thinking that the murderers are representative of all Iraqis (or all Arabs, or all Muslims). Though that wouldn't be enitrely unjust if the Iraqis didn't step up to condemn and fight against these criminals; thankfully, as I pointed out in my previous post, some of them are.

(Also, it's worth pointing out that the individuals in the video probably weren't Iraqi; it's reported that the one reading the manifesto spoke Arabic in what sounded like an Iranian accent. Many of the fighters our soldiers are facing in Iraq are actually from Iran and Syria, both of which have a vested interest in seeing the reconstruction and democratization of Iraq fail.)

And yes, I know that Berg's father says it's all Bush's fault. But we are free to come to our own conclusions, are we not? Personally, I blame the murder on the murderers.

Bravo. I agree. Place blame where blame is due.

But, also, I would like to know how many of "us" (the American people) are really standing up to condemn the treatment of the Arab prisoners...and yet we are comfortable condemning the Iraqi's for not standing up against the terrorist groups that commit such acts as the murder of Nick Berg.

You cannot right a wrong with another wrong.


**Edited to fix minor spelling and grammatical errors...and because, once again, I decided that fewer words were better.

Who isn't condemning it? Have you seen anyone who has defended it, or even been indifferent to it?

For the record, I think those responsible for the abuse in Abu Ghraib prison are not only criminals, but traitors; they have given abundant aid to the enemy in the form of a propaganda victory. I hope they spend the next couple of decades pounding boulders into pebbles in Leavenworth. And yes, that includes the officers who should have been keeping their command in order.

Good enough?

Liberty,

<<Selador, the jihadis seem to be determined to dehumanize themselves.>>

If by this you mean 'make themselves something less than human', then i don't agree. They are human beings, and this, like it or not, is human behaviour.

Once we start to think of them as somehow not belonging to the human race, that is when we give ourselves carte blanche to behave in any way we like towards them, and indeed to descend to their level.

Edited to add this:- IMV it is important to act in such a way that proves that our morality is superior to theirs.

I have seen and heard many people on this board, other boards, and in RL, say that the Iraqis are no longer to be considered human, that since no one is standing up publicly against Berg's murder, that they all deserve to suffer the same violent fate... People are saying this. American people are saying this. Since the Berg murder has become public, I have heard numerous people saying that the torture and humiliation of the prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison is now retroactively justified (for lack of a better way to put it).

So, in answer to your question, yes. I have seen people who are defending it, and people who are indifferent to it.

As for the balance of your post, I very heartily agree.

Is it good enough for me? Who cares? Is it good enough for you?

News reports the Berg murder is finally receiving some condemnation in the Arab world...

For taking news attention away from the prisoner abuse story.

I mean, to paraphrase you, to make themselves appear less than human. The imagery seems calculated to make the jihadis appear to be devoid of compassion, mercy, sanity, or the faintest trace of civilization.

My point was, in past conflicts (I specifically cited WWI), propaganda was concocted to create an image of the enemy as the embodiment of pure evil and barbarity. It was a creation of the American government and its allies, and was mostly fiction. (And of course, the Germans returned the favor.) But Berg's murder, and the various other horrors we've witnessed, aren't fictional, and aren't the work of our government. They are quite real, and they are the image the enemy have themselves chosen to project.

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The major problem I have this is stance is that it somehow equates the treatment of the prisoners with the beheading. And if we equate them, then it almost seems as if it somehow justifies it.

Well it doesn't! I'm in NO WAY condoning what went on in the prison, but twist it any way you like, we do NOT go around sawing off people heads while they scream.

Personally, thats exactely what I believe now. Didn't before, but I do now.

Jellin, I can sympathize with the way you feel, but I'm glad I can't bring myself to feel the same way. I've had the pleasure of knowing several people from the middle east, Iranian and Iraqi, and have met visiting family members from both countries. They were highly educated, articulate, generous, and really kind and wonderful people. I'm truly thankful for the experience. I hadn't realized how distorted my view of those countries had been before I met them because of the miopic view we get in our media... lifelong, not just since the first gulf war. I was actually surprised that they were every bit as sophisticated as Americans and that they didn't live in mud huts, and I was ashamed when I realized how arrogant and ethnocentric my indoctrinated assumptions were.

No matter where you go you will find every kind of person, from the salt of the earth to the lowest vile scum. I would imagine the percentages are mostly the same no matter where you go. No matter how tempting it is you can't label or hate an entire group of people for the actions of a few.

I guess I am less equating the actions than I am equating the reactions.

OT (or, really, on-topic, but not directly this topic), there are allegations that the prison guards in Abu Ghraib are responsible for the deaths of a number of "unidentified" prisoners. I haven't seen many details on these deaths - who the victims were or the manner in which they were killed. But if it is true, I have to say that I do not condone one style of murder over another, nor do I condone murder by one people and not another.

If the allegations that I am talking about are true, then I guess I would have to admit that, in a way, I am equating the two situations - murder to murder. If not, then I stick to the original intentions of my posts - REACTIONS.

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