Is this REALLY the REAL WORLD Forum? What happened to the Nick Berg thread?

Devlin I have seen some pretty bad things in my life, some give me nightmares, but posting a link to that horrible video was just aiding that man's murderers. They hope to frighten us but they have dishonored themselves and sealed their own fates by butchering a helpless captive. It just reinforces in my mind what a sick and hateful culture we are fighting.

Oh and I wasn't the person who posted the link .. for clarification -- part of my job is to make sure the audience doesn't get traumatized.

I wouldn't do it on the air, and I sure as hell wouldn't do it on a public forum.

Siggy.
'

Siggy I didn't think you were minimalizing it, I can understand.

But David--I disagree! I think anyone who says that we should pull out of the Mideast should see that video. If you understand what we're fighting and the kind of animals we're dealing with DO NOT watch it (there is no need), but if you're a fence sitter and you need help understanding why people like Bush use the word "evil" so often, go ahead and watch it. If that's what it takes for some people to "get it", so be it.

Jellin -- If you're talking about all muslims (if not then nevermind), I'll chalk that one up to anger on your part. But when you calmed down a little I hope you're not still calling for carpet bombing of the entire mideast.

Edit: Oh yea I'm annoyed that thread was deleted too. Geez.

Siggy,

Thank you for your post, it brings context to your remark. Now I understand what you meant. I appreciate the clarification.

Champie

I think the thread should have been deleted simply because of the link.

Sure there's the censorship debate about that, but I was stupid enough (yes i take full responsibility for my own actions) to click the link and see the video. I wish i hadn't. I can truly say that seeing what these people are capable with my own eyes has changed my outlook on the war almost completely. I have not been able to get those images out of my head since and have been feeling sick and completely disgusted ever since, and have lost some of my youthful optimism that I always had up until yesterday.

I hope that no-one else was as stupid as me in clicking the link, and wish that it was never posted

Sorry for rambling but I am depressed since seeing that.

And for Siggy, I feel sorry for you having to see such atrocities daily. I can't imagine having to handle seeing such things. I sure haven't handled it well

Rysidian,

My sympathies - I had the same reaction to having seen the full Daniel Pearl video - I was haunted by it for days. I have not seen the full Nick Berg video, only the part right before his actual deal and that was haunting enough. No, the link should not have been posted here I agree - or should have had ample warning that it was the full and not edited video (if if did not have a disclaimer). Still, only the link should have been removed, not the entire thread.

Jellin I understand your anger, but you must know that those actions represent so few of the people in Iraq. Just as racist hate mongers do not speak for you or me or most Americans, it is the barbaric monsters who commit acts like these who we are at war with, not the innocent Iraqi civilians. Pleae do not confuse the two.

Cristiano

I have to say, Cristiano, that I still agree with you, that my outlook on the war in Iraq has not changed. In fact, look at where the atrocity started: Al Qaeda, yet again. And still, we're fighting in the wrong nation looking for these people--thousands upon thousands of our troops in Iraq while Bin Laden is still on the loose. If that isn't something to be ashamed of, I don't know what is.

Rys--I've been having the same problem, and I don't want to talk to anyone irl about it because I'm scared of being seen as a creep from clicking the link to begin with. We should talk sometime, because I'm still very shaken and I get into these weird trances where I replay the video in my head--

For that reason, I'm glad the link was removed, I really don't want anyone else to be going through this; I was much happier yesterday.

Oh man, I hate listening to Americans talking politics...

Azelda

Muslim? I couldn't care less what religon they are, and muslim is just a religous name. Yes, I'm talking about the whole damn country, and maybe a few others besides. The same day that story came out I read another about the poor oppressed palkestinian people who picked up some souveneirs. They were parading them around like fantastic trophies. Toting them around in bags to show the neighbors.

The souveniers? Body parts from some isreali soildiers that were literraly blown to pieces from a mine. Arafat had the gall to say he'll speak to leaders to try to solve this 'problem'. Problem. Animals partying with chunks of dead people is a problem. Sounds so tame doesn't it? Yet some army idiots taking embarrising pictures of a some naked guys is an outrage to all of islam.

GAH, just thinking about it is getting me worked up again!!

They're not human in my eyes anymore.

I hope EVERYONE sees it, just so we KNOW what were fighting. Just so we stop trying to put warm fuzzy faces on all the filth of the world.

Maybe if some of these good innocent Iraqi's actually DID something to stop it, maybe if they stepped up for LAW AND ORDER, maybe if I didn't see so much dancing and cheering over every american death, maybe if they didn't laugh and cheer and dance around like goons dragging charred bodies through the streets I might belive that.

I'm curious, where are you from Azelda?

Jellin, you're right, there's loads of hypocrisy in that area. But I don't think the reason Iraqi's aren't willing to fight for their freedom and democracy like our forefathers did is because they hate Americans, because they don't care, or because they want lunatics like Al-Sadr leading their country. (The real reasons could be a whole other thread.) I think just today or yesterday about 1,000 Iraqis marched in protest of Al-Sadr. It's going to take a LONG time and a difficult fight before we gain their trust back, but there are some good signs around.

Oh god I can't believe it. I'm on the other side today...I'm a flaming liberal defending the arabs....omg... But we have to be the ones to be fair and honest.

We're not in the wrong country. Taking out Saddam had little to do with al-Quaida, true. But this is about changing the face of the middle east. Besides, Iraq has now become exactly the "right" country to be in if all you want to go after is al-Quaida. The bastards that made this video, are *obviously* al-Quaida connected. They say it was "revenge" for the American prisoner abuse in Iraq--that's BULL. "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi" called for a "rounding up of sheep for the slaughter" (something like that) months ago. Blah blah blah blah blah....I could go on.

What's really disgusting is that nobody even cares. I heard that the French media had ONE story about this. One! But it gets worse...the story could be summed up something like this: "Americans will now be distracted from the Iraqi prisoner abuse because of this video." (!!!!!!!!!) Arab news is reportedly quiet as well.

I'm disgusted too Jellin.

But I also know that most Iraqis hate al-Quaida, and people like al-Sadr. They may be a religious people (you could say the same of the US), but they DON'T want a theocracy like in Iran. Iran's people don't even want it.

To anyone who says we should leave Iraq and/or the mideast: THESE are the people that want to be the leaders over there. We leave like we've done in the past, then things get even worse and these people WILL take over. AS IF that wasn't bad enough...do ya think they're gonna leave us alone after that? That's why I'm afraid of John Kerry--he just might pull us out of there and revert back to the Bill Clinton method of fighting terror. Not that I can blame Bill for those tactics which didn't seem that bad at the time, (nobody can see the future), but now we know that it didn't work and anyone who wants to go back to using a police-action style of fighting terrorism is...wrong.

Even after getting that out I still don't feel much better.

Not sure if we (Americans) should take that as in insult or an observation.

It could be that Azelda hates seeing us tear into one another with such radically different and strongly opposing views; it's like we're two countries in one here.

Kinda doubt it though...

Garoad, I've disagreed with you before, and I still do now, but I'm just going to say that to say it but not back it up for a change. I'd like to get as far away from this thread and these posts right now; I don't want to be talking around this topic. I disagree with you, nothing new with that, but I'm not fighting, I'm just stepping back, 'kay? I hold my sanity in as high regards as I do my morality; I think getting too far into this at this point, with that video looming over our heads as the point of topic, would do wonders for rebuffing my morality but if I'm too deep into this I don't think it'd be friendly to my sanity. That's all.

I have to say that if I had a choice, I would much rather be beheaded than electrocuted.

Then you obviously didn't see the footage. I'll say only this: It wasn't a quick chop, and it didn't seem to be a very sharp knife, either.

If -most- Iraqi's hated al-quida and people like Sadr, then theere would be arrests made, they would be outlawed, they wouldn't have fanatical mobs screaming their name, they wouldn't be in control of entire areas, they wouldn't have enough support to do more than skulk in the background.

You know what you're NEVER going to hear in the news?

"Today Detective (arabic name that's the equivelient of Smith) arrested 5 suspected al Quida terrorists in connection with the murder of Nick Berg"

or

"Today the Palestinian Authority outlawed Hamas and arrested suspected members. Also arrested was alleged Hamas leader (whatever his name is) for conspiracy to commit murder and acts of terrorism."

When you start seeing things like that, I'll change my mind, but until then, I stick with believing they'll all ALL nothing more than animals.

Actually, IMHO, this is because they don't have a "bill of rights" in these countries, and never have. There is no free speach or freedom of the press. There is no right to bear arms.

So, the media is nothing but a propaganda tool of those in power, and those not in power don't have the resources to stand against them.

So, why don't the "good" members of the police and military rise up in their stead? Because when you annoy them, Baathist thugs don't just imprison you or kill you, they rape, torture and murder as much of your family as they can identify and locate.

Actually they DO have the right to bear arms. Every male adult in Iraq has a legal right to own a weapon. Most prefer a fully automatic AK-47.

I think, if you were to visit and ask around, you would find that for the past two decades that right has been reserved for the Baathists. :-/

<<Then you obviously didn't see the footage.>>

No, I'm glad to say I didn't, and don't intend to. But the fact is that it's difficult to measure barbarity in degrees.

Pardon my french, but I'll keep this brief.

I do not blame the Iraqi people in general for the execution of Nick Berg. I do not blame the Bush administration either. I blame the cowardly, self promoting, animalistic assholes who were too fucking cowardly to show their faces on camera when they executed a helpless unarmed man. I haven't seen the clip, but I seriously doubt a machete can cut a man's head off clean in one swipe. Its a horrible way to die.

They basically sawed his head off while he was conscious, and there wasn't anything quick or merciful about it.

No human being is an animal - animal consciousness is not fully evolved.

All human beings' consciousness is fully evolved.

Some human beings act like animals.





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Edited for grammar