Holy Crap!

Anyone here from Levi? Coke? I'm available.. for a (cough) small salary.

Misnomer -

I guess we had too many different units of measurement in our posts -

Lifetime users get 1 acre for free, and other residents get 1/4 acre for free. So lifetime accounts get 4x as much land as other accounts. We probably shouldn't be mixing our units (acres and fractions of sims) as much as we do.

Or, at least, that's how I read it. If that's wrong, then we really SHOULD reword it.

- Doug

1) You still get a stipend every month

2) You can convert L$ directly into real money.

ONE OF THE ABOVE STATMENTS HAS TO BE FALSE.

They would not pay us a monthly US$ salary to play SL (ie, just convert your monthly stipend into US$).

But 1) was already stated as true.

Therefore 2) must be false.

There may be a round about way to convert L$ into dollars but there cannot be a direct way (ie, cash out), if there is a stipend.

As one of the "enlightened few" that had prior knowledge of the changes, I can assure everyone that you now know as much as we did. Those of us in the focus group got told all this by philip and then we had a question and answer period... but of course it was a huge amount to absorb and I think most of us were just kinda like deer in the headlights.

I've been dying for this to get announced, and I figured by now I'd know how I feel about it. I think I'm still in too much shock, lol. My gut instinct tells me that in the long run this might be good for SL, but for those of us who've already gotten used to the way things have been this is a whole lot to swallow. It's like taking a big swig out of that carton of milk you're not quite sure is sour or not and waiting to either be relieved or to spit up on yourself.

Before I go any farther I need to get this off my chest first... those of you who've been whining about prim hogging... welcome to the world you asked for. That's not to say this is going to be a bad thing. It's too soon to tell. But pat yourselves on the back or slap yourself upside the head because this is what you asked for and you got it. You might want to do some exploring in the next couple of weeks and see SL's most elaborate builds. Many of them might not be around much longer if the owner can't obtain the land and the RL$ to keep it.

Here's my thoughts...

There will now be complete predictability to everything. That might make things horridly dull, or it might spur some really impressive development that wasn't really feasible before. It means if you plan carefully and want to pay for it you know exactly what you're getting. In the short term this takes some of the pioneering "start with nothing and build an empire if you have the skill" feeling out of it (which is the saddest part to me because I've taken great personal pride in what I've been able to do based on nothing but the conensus of my SL peers)... but it means that more things like Dark Life might happen. Groups of people can come up with an idea, fund it with RL money, and hope to eventually turn a profit from it in RL money (we need more info on how payouts will work and what it will be measured on). Is that a good thing? I don't know.

Those base subscribers who don't get land and will just be here to enjoy content will be the ones who really control the economy by what they choose to do and to buy (because odds are they'll outnumber the rest of us). The more of them we can attract with cool content, the more money there is to pay out, and the more incentive there is to develop events, attractions, and cool stuff to buy to keep them coming (I'm guessing that's the rationale behind this, but I'm not sure the pay a one time fee and be able to come in world forever will serve that end very well. Maybe it would generate more income to reward the people making the content they're coming to see if their access time was limited but with non-recurring billing... like a day, week, or month pass?). We were content developers already, but now we're inviting in a new kind of resident... the pure passive consumer. Will it dissolve into blatant RL commercialism? I don't know. The bad thing about typical consumers is that they're... well... typical consumers.

For people who just want to tinker and don't have the capacity or the desire to play the money game or entertain others, they get a set amount of resource to play with. They'll no longer be able to get more than that unless they want to pay for it with real $. This is a good thing for the casual player. How will it ultimately effect the hardcore addicts? I don't know that either.

My questions...

If someone wants to expand their land holdings now or at a later date to have access to more prims in their current location how will that work? will it be possible? Will they have to move? Will they have to wait for an auction?

For someone like me who probably has more prims on their land than the olive model supports but is willing to buy enough land to keep it, can I do that if there's not land available to buy? Will I have to buy up whatever little pieces I can find in freelon even though they'd be of little use since they wouldn't be connected to my existing plot? I'd like to keep what I have and pay for the ability to expand. I'd like to know more about how that'll work.

Like everyone else I have a wait and see attitude. If there's the ability to defray RL expense for SL resources through converting L$ then hopefully people who couldn't afford what they've managed to achieve in SL can still build an empire soley on their in world hard work and not just the size of their RL bank account. I truly hope that will still be true. We need a lot more detail on how that all works.

I'm trying not to have a knee-jerk reaction to all this and I hope that others will do the same. I'm not at all surprised that the reactions to the changes are what they are so far (I don't envy you Cory!). These are huge changes and this was bound to really shake up the community but I don't think any of us know enough yet to guess at what the long term (or short term for that matter) effects of all this will be.

I certainly intend to stick around to find out.

Doug> I think the obvious unit of measuring land is the one that is ACTUALLY USED IN THE GAME.

I've always said "land unit" which is the smallest amount of land you can buy, a 4x4 meter square. It doesn't make much sense to use real-world units of measurement like acres that your average city-dweller will have no real mental image of. That's why news stories like to use "football fields" as a unit of measurement.

Meters would be the next best term, but even that can be confusing to some players, especially those that live in the US where most measurements are still in English units. Also, 16 square meters is indivisible, so should use a integer number that is indivisible to represent it.

So how about using the same measurement that's used in the game, hmm?

Viola,

You keep mentioning that this allows people to buy SL currency with RL dollars. It seems the only thing you can do with RL money in SL is increase the amount of land you own, and apparently the same thing will be doable with L$. I don't quite see how this causes a huge disparity. It is certainly a great question to ask, I just have not seen anything that directly supports the posts that say "LL is creating a society where the only way you can get ahead is to have RL money". If the costs in L$ are reasonable for land, I think this balances the current system with a system where maybe those who would like to build without having to dedicate all their time in world to earning income can also do that. I am taking a wait and see attitude about all of this. I am a lifetime member anyway, my only big concern right now are the prim limits on the land plots, and how our current land will be divided - I worked very carefully to get a contiguous plot of nicely sculpted waterfront land, and definitely do not want to give that up. Not to mention not a damn thing of mine is linked

Cristiano

PS - please don't take this as questioning you - your point is well written and well taken - I am just trying to balance out some of the more irrational posts because I think it is affecting even the rational ones now with misinformation.

Mezzanine,
Yes, there is both a stipend and ways to convert L$ to US$. However, as you surmised, it will not be direct conversion.

Huzza buzzah.

What a shock.
I'm still trying to get my head around everything, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds this hella confusing.

Maybe LL would save a whole lot of confusion if it was within their means to send out an email to everyone with a projection and say: This is how much you would have to pay a month if you kept what you have now.


I agree with an above poster about the whole dwell mess. As a clothing designer, I'll never make it into the top 25 of dwell. No one hangs out in a clothing store. They stop for awhile, shop, then leave. I can't script. I have no interest in learning to script. So that means I'll never get a part of this 'Gee golly neato keen novelty where we give you fabulous $$!" So I can't see how this applies to anyone but scripters. People who hold events hold them at places like Stage 4, because A) LL encourages it because it's near the welcome area. and B) It holds people a lot better. They won't benefit from dwell = $$
So for everyone but scripters, the 'we pay you!' thing is nothing. An interesting note though: If you are in the top 25, you could invest your fabulous bucks into buying more land in SL. That's neat, if you're a script wizard.

What chokes me more than anything, and correct me if I'm wrong - it feels like all the work I and others like me have done building a reputation and earning L$ is worth hardly anything. It puts people on an even playing field. I guess that's not a bad thing from the perspective of newer players, but for me personally, it, well, sucks. That nothing is reputation-based anymore, that there is no incentive for being a nice person who helps, and wears a cool avatar...well, that's not really SL anymore. That's something new. I have to think about whether or not I want to be part of this new world.

I've already seen a change in SL lately, and I haven't liked it. It started out by me realizing I couldn't contribute anything to LindenWorld without being a scripter or partnering with one. Then I looked around the world and noticed that the world was leaning really heavily towards "Create stuff that people can interact with!" And if you can't do that, well, you're outta luck. People buy my stuff. People don't linger in my store.

Maybe I'm not the kind of person LL is targeting. If so, it's their perrogative.

(After rereading my post I want to say I'm not harping on scripters. I love that there are different things to do within SL. It's awesome that they get benefits. I just wish that people who /aren't/ interested in scripting could have similar perks)

So I'm going to mull it over and watch and see. I haven't decided one way or another if I want to be a part of this 'new' SL.

If they keep the current system where you can purchase and maintain SL land with L$, then things will continue as they are, with your SL standing not neccessarily being based on your RL bank account. But it sounds like the only way to maintain land in SL is with RL money, with the possibility of having those costs offset by a "developer bonus" if you're extremely popular.

I pray that I don't have to give up my land in Natoma, or my house. Call it roots.

But...from what I see, I get a 16th of a sim (I'm a lifer under the first lifer offering).

That gives me x amount of prims...somebody said 625. If accurate, that's a scanty amount for all that space, but ok.

So, I build out 615 prims, and buy a no modify object of 11 prims. I can't rez it? And if I do...it will be part of my allocation?

I will NEVER buy an object I can't modify then. I will jealously reserve all my prims for my own modifiable use. Seems at odds with all the work that's been done to prevent modification of objects so people will buy them. And...setting up a store, with objects that will be purchased via copies (the original stays...) uh uh. Not if there's a prim limit.

Then again maybe stores are broken anyway.

In addition, say somebody wants to show me something on my land, and they have max'd their prims, and so have I. Will they be able to rez the object on my land? Or will we have to find some public space?

Does this take into account bullets? Say I want to open a shooter game with teams. Any number of bullets could be flying if it's a good high action game...how will this work? For example, my old shooter arena game. I set up spawners that would spawn mobs based on player proximity, and those mobs would shoot at you. Counting prims precisely is impossible, especially if you take into account automatic weapons. Bullets are short lived, and depending on where the player is and how much they move around, the number of bullets/mobs can vary tremendously.

Will it even be possible anymore? Or will I have to do all this in an open field to ensure people can shoot? Will I have 600 prims, and after me and my adversary open up with our gatlings for a few seconds, see an endless chat spam of SYSTEM ERROR: OBJECT CAN NOT BE REZZED DUE TO EXCEEDING PRIM LIMIT?

Oddly enough I like a lot of what I see...but I'm concerned that your ability to build will be stunted by this even moreso than taxes...at least with taxes, if you wanted to kill yourself, you could get more prims in the world. Now, no matter what you do, 625 prims on your 1/16th is it forever.

Dwell also seems a questionable way to determine the "value" of a creation or service. One that could be abused with a little thought.

Is this off base? A hard limit on prims seems like a way to ensure more museums and less dynamic gameplay.

It doesn't even help all of us script wizards. My scripting is my birds -- I need no land, own no land, and don't get a dwell bonus of any sort. I'm worried that these new rules mean I won't be allowed to release my birds into the wild anymore -- with all the prims in each sim already allocated to landowners, the extra five prims a bird uses won't be available. The only way I'd be able to keep my birds flying is to purchase a plot of land in each and every sim, and I still wouldn't generate any dwell.

I think Dwell helps those socialites a heck of a lot more than scripters.

Alondria,

That is quite possibly true. But I don't personally know any socialites, haven't since beta. I was just eyeing dwell numbers from LindenWorld when I was making my comments.

Yuki -

As Cory mentioned previously, there will be a way to convert L$ to US$, but it will not be a direct conversion. L$ will not be valueless. It will continue to play an integral part in the Second Life economy.

We realize that there are many ways to contribute to Second Life beyond dwell, and we hope that the systems that we come up with will recognize those contributions. Just as we started with ratings, then added voting booths, and added dwell, we will continue to look for ways to recognize those who are contributing to Second Life.

- Doug

Oy..

Thanks for the reply Doug. I think I'm gonna keep quiet for a little while until things start to make more sense. It's all pretty jumbly, and this thing looks different depending on which angle you look at it from.

I think you folks over there at Linden Lab are going to have to forgive your users some kneejerk reactions to what appears to be a dramatic change.

Ok. I have to confess I haven't read everybodys points in everybodys posts, but I do have a few thoughts and concerns of my own on this. Mostly, I'd just like to say 'ditto' to everything Brad Lupis said in an earlier post.

But anyway, my predicament - I was, quite literally, going to take up a lifetime membership *today*... as Misty will tell you That was actually why I'm on here right now, credit card in hand. Good job I came to the forums first... I hadnt even checked my email.

Well now I'm not so sure if I should

It's not about land or prim usage for me... I actually think that the prim usage tied to land is a good thing, and I dont think I will ever need more land than the lifetime fee provides.

BUT... my main reason for wanting to join for life is that over the past month or so I have met some truly wonderful people here. If they should go as a result of this shakeup, I would have no reason to stay.

I think it will make the community poorer for it, too. I dunno about anyone else, but people who know me will tell you I almost never ever sell anything to people. I tend to give my creations and scripts and stuff away to people - indeed I usually do stuff directly for people on request - for the sheer pleasure of it. But I won't be able to do that any more, because while I don't care right now if I make L$ or not, I'm gonna have to when it translates directly to US$.

I also don't like the reward system at all. There are a lot of people in world that add value just by being there. I'm serious - you don't have to be a kickass modeller or clothing designer to be an important part of SL. And unless there are gonna be some criteria and themes to the award system, I get the feeling that the same people are gonna be reaping the rewards time after time.

IMHO, I think it 'breaks' the community to introduce real life currency. I know a lot of people who quite simply won't stay if they have to pay a cent over what they do now... because they just cant.

So. Do I want to buy a lifetime membership now? Is it still ok value for money since I dont *think* I'll ever need to pay more based upon the caps given (and that really is all this is... capping). So value wise, I don't think much has changed.

However, I really don't want to buy a lifetime membership and then find that these fantastic people I am joining to spend time with don't stay.

1. Given that taxes are being removed does that mean we will no longer be penalized for making builds off the ground?

2. I'm a lifer, let's say I have my 4096 sq/ meter plot. and there is land adjacent mine that is public but doesn't fit well aesthetically with my land. Until 1.2 I could just claim the land temporarily and 'fix it' (assuming I have the resources to do so of course). Given the system in 1.2 what is the process that I would be going through to accomplish such a task?

3. Tcoz mentioned this and I would also like this answered, will temporary rezzed objects affect the prim limit I have available to me because of the land I own. If so how will those people who don't own land (a scenario you described) rez anything?

4. Will there be differences to the slow decay of objects to public when on public land? If so how will it work?

A lot of very valid points, Kris. Hopefully if your friends find the social environment and creative opportunities rewarding they'll stay, in the end.

If people are just here to achieve, getting vast tracts of land and thousands of prims, then they aren't going to like it. But, they're taking more resources than 15$ a month covers, and if that's coming out of -my- subscription.. well who gave them the right?

I'm going to have almost twice as much land, and 200 more prims than I've -ever- had rezzed at once, when this all happens. I'll be paying less than I am now.

In addition, I'm no longer going to be 'abused' by people who consume resources that I was depending on. There's no need for me to whine about that ever again, if someone has a ton of resources they'll be paying Linden Labs for it, and LL will have more money to add new simulators.

Real $$$ was always involved in this game, I've been paying by the month since I started, and now I know whatever I'm paying I will get my money's worth.

And I think I will be better off too, from a purely property and object point of view. But if my friends arent here to share it with me, I don't think it'll count for anything.




Actually, although not related to resources, this does bring me to another point I forgot to mention... right now, if we have to put up with griefing from newbies, which has happened quite a lot recently for certain established residents, we generally only have to tolerate them for their 7 day trial... who is gonna PAY to be unpopular?

But under the new system.... they can pop in and grief everyone for life for $10 one off payment. Or am I being pessimistic?

Obviously a stimulating evening in-world, to say the least. Thanks to all those who caught up with the various groups of Lindens and asked great questions. To give an update on the discussion, address a number of concerns and clear up some issues, see my post...

/120/db/7487/1.html

Yah...

I need to see this before I decide.

Jellin, sorry to be losing you... Hope there's something in all this to change your mind.

Having said this... I have to seriously reconsider my own investment here. My own holdings are currently double what I'd be allowed - there's no way I could afford a life membership at the moment due to lack of rl employment - protected only by the fact that most, if not all of it's deeded to a group.

It's only the people - expecially one - who're keeping me here with these changes.

I hope I'm just being pessimistic, and that all will turn out right in the end. It wouldn't be the first time. Yes, I've read Philip's post... I'm going to wait and see.

SL's been fun so far, for the most part... I'd hate to see that change.

It is still a little early to give a true evaluation of all these changes. But, I'll throw my kneejerk reaction in with everyone elses. I am all for it. And if you go back and review the forums for the last couple months, you may find that it is what most people have been asking for in one way or another. SL is evolving. Something absolutely had to be done about the way taxes, land and prim usage was handled. And if I judge the people over at LL right, if this doesn't work out they will try something else until they find a system that does work. Concerning those few people with the "that's it! I'm outta here" attitude, don't worry about them. If they were truly interested in SL and its future, they would be willing to stick it out and help make it better.

"The sky is falling!"
C. Little

2 things here. $L will still be useful for buying in-world stuff, sure (assuming you can actually rez it on your land after you bought it), but very quickly the only way to buy land will be with RL$. It's very very easy to say that land can be bought with either, but I think it'll be the RL deep pockets that will buy ALL the good land in the future. If a new sim opens, and you like that beach-front property, you better have the RL$ to get it. Sooner or later any decent property will have to be bought on ebay. After all, if you spent $200 dollars for choice land, will you really sell it or release it for $L? No, you won't.

Second thing. Could a Linden please define what the Lindens think of as contributing to SL? I have a club that does draw quite a few people, but I have serious doubts I fall into the 'contributing' category.

I had all night to think about what is going on, and now I have some doubts that need clarification:

1. How much land is a person entiltled to by paying the $10 a month? How many square meters?

2. How many prims is one entitled to in the above situation?(in whole numbers, not percentage of sims prim count)

3. I own a plot of land that is almost 900 square meters, will I be paying more than the monthly fee I am currently paying?

4. If it turns out that I own more land or prims than I am entitled to, will there be an option to pay for the extra land in Linden dollars?

5. I am currently paying the monthly fee and I was waiting until I had enough money to purchase the lifetime account. Are there any incentives for one switching to a lfetime membership?

6. If I did opt for the lifetime membership, how many square meters of land will I be entitled to? How many prims? (again in numbers please )

I guess that's about it... for now.

My own concern over people buying land for RL cash comes from the possibility of RL$ buyers and L$ buyers being in direct competition with each other for a limited supply of land -- in which case, real money talks, and Monopoly money walks.

We've been dealing with a situation of scarcity for a while now, and its caused a lot of real conflict and ill will. If people foresee that situation continuing, only now some people will be able to buy their way out of that competition -- well, that's why people are breaking out the torches and pitchforks.

The only way this works for me is if we have some assurance that there will be plenty of land available for both groups of buyers, RL$ and L$: several new sims as soon as the rules go into effect, and additional sims, *quickly*, as demand increases. (And yes, I can see how the new model makes it a lot easier for LL to predict and plan for increased demand.)

I have no problem sharing resources with the eeeeeeeevil rich so long as they are *not* crowding out everyone else.