Holy Crap!

This so called "equal" allocation of server recourses seems to be communisim to me. Take this as an example:

Ritch, uncreative Joe gets the same amount of land as M.C. Escher. Joe gets to build more than Escher, even though he's only building stupid eyesores. Dancing Penises or M.C. Escher? Dancing Penises, of course. There's more money behind them.

I don't get your latter part, but this is definately not an example of communism. This is definately a capitalistic ordeal, where the more money you have (and now we are speaking RL) the more land you own. Not based on talent, not based on skill, not based on anything but the size of your real life pocketbook. For this to be a communistic change, everyone would get allocated 'x' land and primes for the one subscription price, with no options to pay more.

Incidently, what is L$ worth after this change? They used to hold value, being backed by the amount of Sim resources they grant. Now they are pretty much worthless as there is no (and this is an odd phrase) virtual tangable (told ya) worth to them. Basically, this will remove value of what the economy of SL is based on.

Well, guess what Carnildo, Linden Labs Inc. is actually a business. WOW, MAJOR SHOCKER THERE. Take a step back and look at what LL does right now as far as money they are spending goes, servers, wages for workers, bandwidth, rental spaces to hold those servers, etc. etc. etc. Now, let's look at how they make their money. Membership and monthly fees. If someone pays a lifetime fee, they give LL a lot of money in the short term. After that money is gone, LL won't be able to make anymore money off of that person. If a person pays a tri-monthly fee, then Linden Labs gets their money once every 3 months, and same for monthly memberships, they get a less amount of money every month. This strategy works, and has been proven to work, but in order for it to work, you need new players coming in. Sure, we just had an influx of residents recently, but how many of them actually activated their accounts? Out of those who activated, how many went lifetime, giving LL a short tem money solution, and how many people became subscription residents, paying less money but perhaps spending more in the long run.

Now, let's look at it from the eyes of a newbie. With this recent Slashdot immigration surge, we have also seen prim usages skyrocket. You enter the game, excited about building something you've always wanted to. You find some Primo land to build on, and begin. After about 5 prims set up, you get a message : Cannot create prim, server is full. Would you want to pay money for something you couldn't use. So a lot of those trial accounts never activated. So in theory, we have the people who leave SL for whatever reason, PLUS, the loss of the trial accounts who don't see any point in staying. LL lost a lot of money off of it then.

Reading the announcement, it looks like there is a $9.95 monthly fee ... or maybe there isn't. New users can get online for a one-time $9.95, no monthly payments, but no land or prims; but a $9.95 monthly payment gets you a "sizeable chunk" (?) of land (above and beyond the current-user bases of 1024/4096 m2?). So do lifers who stay under 4096 m2 have to pay anything at all? What about non-lifers who stay under 1024 m2?

Lindens, it would help enormously if we could see some specific examples of how much a user would pay, both up front and per month, for owning X amount of land. Some suggested "example users":

1) A lifer with 2048 m2 (i.e., half the base allotment)
2) A lifer with 8192 m2 (double the base)
3) A current non-lifer with 512 m2 (half base)
4) A current non-lifer with 2048 m2 (double base)
5) A new, post 1.2, user with no land
6) A new user with 512 m2

(And Cory, if I may be blunt: would you please knock off the "But wait, there's more!" bit? Talking like you're in an infomercial is not reassuring to anyone. I think I speak for everyone here when I say we want clear, specific, and complete information, not salesmanship and spin.)

Liberty .. I was beginning to wonder if Cory is not an automated message.

Well Jeez that's a lot of changes.


Okay here's my take on it...


-------------------------------------------------------------
Pros:

I currently own about 1/32nd of a sim, which is how much current non-lifetime members get to have forever for free. That means that from now on, I don't have to pay for SL if I live with what I have.

If my calculations are correct, I'll be able to double the land I own now and only pay what I was already paying.

Also, since SL only costs a one time fee of about $10, I will probably be able to convince a lot of my friends to come visit us.

Cons:

For me, the major con is that these changes really gyp the rich people of SL like Hikaru Yamamoto who own a hell of a lot of stuff, and earned it.

Also, it's pissing everybody off and making them want to leave, and I don't want them to go.

And finally, it's unfair to irl poor people, because even if they accumulate a lot of linden bucks in the world, they won't be able to own a lot because they're poor irl.

----------------------------------------------------------



Okay, now here is my Big Suggestion : Give players the option of paying RLBucks or LBucks for land. That should solve everything, yes?



FINALLY... have a question. How many prims will avatars have who don't own land? I mean, we must have some or we wouldn't be able to rez our vehicles, attachments, pet projects, and so on.



P.S. Extra Question! If a player owns a Quarter of Olive and decides to put all of thier Prims in Mocha, what happens?



P.P.S. If Garth Fairlight and Pituca Chang have to pay irl money out the nose in order to maintain thier Quarter of Olive, I'm going to stage an in-world protest the likes of which have never been seen before.

Not just for those two, but for everyone. But for the grace of god go we.

Liberty,
Sorry if this feels like spin. It isn't but I realize that I'm probably repeating myself while trying to respond to many different threads and questions.

So far as specific details, L$ are not going away and will continue to be the primary means of in-world exchange in Second Life. Some users will choose to accumulate them and some will not, in exactly the same way as it is today.

What are L$ good for in 1.2? Beyond exchange, there will be ways to turn L$ into real-world money. If you don't like that, you can use L$ to pay for additional land. Or you can use L$ to secure space on the new simulator opening up so that you have the best view!

To answer your questions, no, a Lifer below 4096 doesn't have to pay, ditto for non-lifers under 1024. If you are under your allotment, you don't have to pay to use the system. If you are over, you'll pay based on the scale on the FAQ. The 9.95 subscription package gets you an additional 512 m^2 (all these are additive) plus some as yet to be determined bonuses (like additional L$ for signing, &c). You lifer with the double base would (I believe) be paying $25 per month (for the additional 4096) and the non-lifer $8 per (for the additional 1024). The new user with 512 could either be paying $5 or be getting the $9.95 for the subscription.

Also, the post 1.2 user with no monthly payments, still has the ability to build in sandboxes, rez and drive vehicles, wear attachments, &c. They just won't own land to build a house on.

Lyrical,
Nope, Doug is the bot.
Cory

Yes, I know they're a business. I know they're in it to make money. But supposedly they're also in it for more.

To quote from "About Linden Labs":

Under the new system, it isn't "an extraordinary new form of shared 3D entertainment", it's just There with a few more options.



Under the new system, there's still a lifetime membership option, and it costs a hell of a lot less. And the company expenses, particularly for bandwidth, depend not on the number of people building, but on the number of people wandering around.



In other words, we're talking about me, and people like me. I'm one of those "Slashdot immigrants". I've been in-world for about three weeks. I've considered purchasing some land, and have even gone so far as to look for individual plots. There's plenty of land in low-prim areas for a beginning build, although most of the prime land is already taken. None of the areas fit the sort of building I was planning, though, so I decided to wait and see if I could get a plot of land in DarkWood. In the meantime, I'm working on creating things like birds with a primitive AI.

We interrupt these musings to bring you editorial commentary...

"Holy Crap!" - look at the forum traffic tonight - especially the Linden presence !!!

"Users Browsing this Forum: Philip Linden, Cory Linden, Doug Linden, Bino Arbuckle, Ryan Linden, James Miller, Taessa Weaver, Kolli Sunchaser, Nicola Escher, odalisque VonLenard, Alondria LeFay, Rathe Underthorn, Ironchef Cook, Brad Lupis, Neil Protagonist, Tiger Crossing, Lyrical Song, Liberty Tesla, JonMichael Gardner, Juro Kothari, Relee Baysklef, Oz Spade, Kex Godel, Carnildo Greenacre, Khamon Fate, Sinclair Valen) "

We now return to our regularly scheduled ranting, already in progress. Carry on...

=SV

Thanks for the quick answer, Cory. Sorry I called you a marketroid.

I've been called worse, Liberty.

Well, uh, um, actually . . .

Cory,
You stated "To answer your questions, no, a Lifer below 4096 doesn't have to pay, ditto for non-lifers under 1024." So, for non-lifers, how long can we not pay anything and hold 1024? Is it until our current subscription has ran out, or forever, or ?

If y'all would stop posting so I could finish my reply -- everytime I refresh there's another page of responses to comment on...

I think 1.2 makes a lot of sense. But you'll have to wait a little longer to find out why...

Alondria,
I don't know the answer to that one, so I (or someone else) will attempt to answer it tomorrow.

(See, Liberty et al, answerbot would have a better answer than that!)

Cory

Feature request: Make the timeout period for forums longer. I had a really nice long post. Got timed out

But anyways: About how v 2.0 you guys decided to improve FPS instead of going to the new havok engine - thank you!

But, anyways, back to the holy crap

Everyone seems to hate new system. It sucks seeing my friends being so torn up over this. Seems like the Lindens are committed to providing good game play for all, I'm willing to give it a go. Some questions though.

There seems to be two philosophical arguments:
- A game that ties RL money to ingame money makes it not a game.
- I can't possibly afford to have the land I have now.

MOST IMPORTANT:
- When will this change happen?

Lesser important:
- We will still receive a stipend - will it be roughly the same as what we have now?
- If there is no tax, how will SL economy work? Right now, stipend money comes in, but tax $ goes out. Thus, the money supply stayes relatively stable, and inflation is avoided. If there is no tax, how does money exit the system?
- What about light tax? gone?
- What do we need L$ for now? Rezzing objects and claiming land?
- You meantioned gettin US$ for L$? What do you mean? Will there be a trading system? Or will it be the 3rd party stuff that was mentioned earlier? Or is this how you intend L$ to exit the system to keep inflation stable?
- This might possibly be a good idea? You have a way for people with really huge builds to pay for their build with the L$ they earn. Much as it is today.

I wish I could be one of the enlightened few whom know the longer term plans ... I probably would not be doing this moody rant right now.

Well... at first I was utterly effing freaked by this, and I didn't even see the whole thing. Didn't get an e-mail. I'm still freaked, but not so hostile.

However, the playerbase really asked for this. I did at least. I don't like how 'hogs' of various sorts, who pay the same as me, can hijack a VAST amount of game resources that are therefore denied from me.

In the new system, maybe somebody with a shocking amount of disposable income can buy their own simulator, but I don't have to go there. In addition, if nobody visits that solely-owned sim, then I imagine the Lindens pay less server bandwidth fees, so that's more income for their company to keep going which has no effect on me.

Given our new telehub system, where we pay nothing for teleportation, I'm not sure if there'll be any problems due to 'simulator inflation'. That's just a helluva lot more money to the company, and nobody's putting a gun to their head and making them own a whole sim.

I think I might have a bit over 1024 right now, but I can sell down to 1024 sq meters, I don't need all that much. Whatever little bit I can scrimp on the account is a good thing for my FL, frankly.. I don't care about that 1000$ dollar LL will be giving out though, I mean, WTF? That doesn't create true creative inspiration, creative inspiration is when the creation itself is the incentive, not moolah.

However, I sincerely hope that there will be significant controls in place to stop me from somehow creeping past what my current account cost would give me without planning it. An extra 5$ on my bill could come out to an extra 30$ due to overdraws, and perhaps some damage to my credit history(not to mention my bank might outright refuse to pay, and then I'd really be up sh*tcreek).

I'm billed for SL near the END of every month, unfortunately, and I'm on a fixed income. I absolutely cannot afford unexpected expenses, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

P.S. --- LindenLabs, you better not be planning to force me onto PG land and still bill me for that land, either. If i'm only given 1024 personal square meters, I don't think I should have to be hide my Evil-Nasty-Sinful Ken-Like Human Body, 24/7, unless I want to.

That's right!

Who were the almighty few users who knew about this in advance, how were they chosen, and did they speak for the rest of us when giving input?

I think there should have been a town meeting to discuss all of this or at least a thread on the boards so that the Linden's could have gathered a response from the majority and worked from there.

I agree with all your PROs. I can grab almost twice as much land as I have now, Although I probably will not.

Maybe I missed something, but it seems to me that people who are rich in SL (regardless of their IRL wealth) will still be better off. L$ will still exist, there will still be an economy in SL independent of RL money. L$ can be converted to IRL money, thats the main thing thats different as far as I can tell. People who are complaining that you can convert real life money into an in-world advantage with the new system are ignoring the fact that you can do so now simply by buying multiple accounts.

As to pissing everyone off. I think there are quite a few forum posters that remain in a perpetual state of being pissed off. Maybe someone should start an in-world anger management class. I avoid people who think the world is out to get them. It often turns out to be a self fulfilling prophecy though, and I don't want to be standing next to them when they realize that I am part of the world. I have a feeling that many such complainers will calm down, try the system and find that it's OK after all, or that if it is not OK, it will get fixed.

I'm not a bot! I'm WAY more sophisticated than that. Pfft, could a BOT have come up with a ducky shirt?!

I'll try to post a bit on what these changes mean, from my perspective.

Yes, Second Life is currently a meritocracy, and a place where talent and creativity are the things that are treasured in the world. Some of you are understandably concerned that by introducing more influence from the real world, we will be reducing the purity of that meritocracy.

However, that is not the intent. One of the things that I truly believe is that in order to be successful, Second Life will need to reward our most creative and most talented users - they will build the world that will ultimately result in the success or failure of Second Life as both a society and a business. And that is the real purpose of the developer rewards.

By changing how awards are given to our "best" residents, we're trying to increase the flexibility and motivation for them. Instead of only L$, now you get to choose what you want to do with it. If you want, you can still reinvest those US$ back into the Second Life community (by buying land), but now you have the opportunity to use it for other purposes as well.

Nobody will be able to get ahead in Second Life just by spending US$ - it still takes a lot of talent and creativity to translate all of the land and primitives that you own into something that will generate dwell, or L$, or whatever metric is the way to reward our best users. If it turns out that the developer reward program isn't rewarding those people, then it's not serving its purpose - and it needs to be changed.

And if you still don't want to participate in the new economy, feel free to sit it out. We want to make sure that everybody has the resources they need to do what they want. But don't be surprised if you someday end up with some money that you weren't expecting! And if you STILL don't want it, well, I know at least one person who could use a little boost to his salary every once in a while!

- Doug

Ok, lots of questions here:

JonMichael> Decisions on what to do were made by Linden Lab. Of course we questioned some of the users who would be most impacted by the changes.

Stromko> Yes, you will need to go to a web page to confirm each land purchase that would cause you to spend money and it clearly explains what your costs will be.

Francis> The timeline is a couple of weeks. Stipend will be reduced, but with taxes and rez costs gone, L$ will go a lot farther and will primarily be used for in world exchange. Correct, the auctions will be one of the L$ drains.

I think this is kind of acting as a town meeting isn't it?

If you think about it, they didn't just suddenly say "This is going in act today.", they did give us some advance notice about it. But I get what your sayin.

Suggestion:

If this isn't already meant to happen, and I missed it, but what about having it so that when you buy extra land, the taxes are taken from your L$ and when you don't have enough THEN it charges your US$ account. This may already be part of it and I just didnt comprehend it.

And/Or have a button or check mark or whatever for "Take New Land Tax From L$" or switch it to "Add New Land Tax To Credit Account".

Wow, my head is swimming. By the time Nada returns it isnt going to be 3 more pages, more like 30 more.

Is there a typo in the email? It says



"all other" users get more than Lifetime?

My biggest woe is LL is rewarding "popular" people. Payouts are based on Dwell, right? When you purchased your favorite shirt, did you hang out at the store you bought it at or did you head out to a party to hang and show it off?

I just really think this whole thing is tweaked in a way that isnt really very good unless you are popular or can script your shorts off.

I'm watching, waiting and reading.

People's first reactions to change usually is fear. Fear causes anger. It is natural response. I feel some comfort in the fact that L$ will be convertable, however I am a bit upset that the rich in RL can dominate on SL. I also can see some interesting side effect, which I don't know are good things or bad things. In theory, since someone could buy a sim, a company could purchase one. It sounds like LL will be pumping cash for dwell (which I still have some issues with dwell, but that is a different topic) so in theory that company could have a good enough product in their sim to actually come out ahead (especially with the $L -> $US translations). This company could hire people (for US$ or L$) to develop on their land. The opening up of ownership of content kind of, in reflection, was a forshadowing of it. I am wondering if LL's plans are to be more of a service provider to other companies (thus the no land/lifetime bit). Corporate owned SL?