Holy Crap!

This is an interesting turn of events... to be quite honest I'm the kind of user this just hardly affects directly. I own a plot just to be a part of Darkwood and leave a few things rezzed there, more for nostalgia than anything else.

I am concerned about builds which wont be able to survive this kind of virtual economy. There are a number that are already gone due to earlier shake-ups which might well have had a future if this had come ealier... perhaps not.

As a lifer I'm a bit unsure about my 40 Acres (err 1/4 acre) and a Mule... perhaps I'll make something grand enough to be able to afford more some day... I cant currently afford to pay any more US$ for it. Perhaps I'm getting shafted... perhaps not. As a lifer I'll wait it out, as always.

Fascinating.

Holy Freakin' Shit!

Hmmmm.

UU

Be aware that the vast majority of users will not have to pay more per month than they are paying now! (Sorry for missing the group land, BC -- although it would only take 4 lifetimers in a group to cover 1/4 sim) In fact, many will be able to pay less!

Also, the new primitive scheme means no more lost objects scattered around the landscape (they will be returned to you). Want to build on public land and then just walk away? You can and what you built will be cleaned up after you've gone.

You realize the Lindens have just given you guys everything you've been asking for, don't you?

PFFFFFFFT LINDENS.


more to come, once i can find the top of my head and screw it back on. it just blew clean off as i was reading.

I have to really, REALLY stress my displeasure here.

I greatly enjoyed the fact that the only way to get L$ was through hard work and creativity.

The real world has a huge disparity in wealth. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer is not just a cliche but is very true.

It was refreshing to see a giant house with sprawling lands and detailed cars and go, boy.. they must work HARD to keep that!

Now... now all I will think is great.. someone with money to burn just moved in.

Yes.. I am jealous of people with far more money that I have. And yes, this isn't the end of the world here at Second Live but I really am saddened that such a great system is going away.

To Linden Labs.. please reconsider this. I don't know your finacial details, don't know if this had to happen due to technical or financial issues.. but I truly feel that something special is being lost.

I will stick around to see what happens.. perhaps it will not be as bad as I fear. I just really worry that suddenly the world will be filled with huge land areas with crappy, horrid buildings instead of now where *usually* large tracts of land look GREAT and are wonderfull to explore because the people who made them by DESIGN had to be good at it.

The appeal of SL for me was that my success or failure depended upon myself.. My Second Life was just that, a second life -- totally unrelated to my standing in my First Life. My only obligation was my membership and I was put on (more or less) equal standing with everyone else.

In my first life I struggle to through paying off a small house that may not be in the hood, but I can see it from there.

In my second life I have the opportunity to be live in a penthouse or a palace -- if I am successful enough and work hard.

- of course there were ppl using mule accounts and the like, spending FL money to get SL benefits... well my hats off to all of you, you just 'won' the game.
Now from the benefits of your FL you have the opportunity to more or less OWN it -- there will, of course, be some ppl that will forever on the side, a line drawn in the sand 'YOU MAY GO NO FURTHER!'...

I was unable to do that either financially or ethically, so I tried a novel approach -- play by the rules, and play your best.

I enjoyed the empowering freedom that SL afforded me while it lasted.

But now, just like in FL, I'll bow my head and put on those manacles. I'll see how much my current subscription 'affords me' in SL.. If I can hang onto Al Qadim I will.. But with the new system it looks like all incentive for me to continue any kind of 'business' if gone.

I went into business to build my dreams -- only now, having flown too close to the sun do I see the folly of dreaming.

Siggy

That's just it.... maybe they did, maybe they didn't... or maybe they did and the price is something we don't want.....

We just don't know yet. We need that town hall meeting and we need it fast.

Okay, I am a bit confused by a few points.

a) There is that funky $9.95 for the no land, forever hold the account thing. Are all currently members included in that automatically? (I.e. Our accounts will not be deleted at this point?)

b) "All other current Second Life residents will receive 1/4 acre at no extra cost." - What exactly does this mean? That all us non-lifers get a free 1024 plot or what? For how long? I would presume not forever.

c) Assuming that point b is not forever, and we still have months paid in advance on our accounts, does that mean we get a $8/month plan that we pre-paid somewhere between $10 to $15 for? Will we just be credited the prorated unused portion?

Overall, I have to say I kind of dislike the fact it seems it removes the world being based on L$ and rather on US$. Makes me think I wasted time getting ahead in L$. I don't know. I guess I need time for it all to sink it and digest.

Siggy, that is so very true. Up til now, I felt the same. If someone was doing weel, then they must have really done something special in SL to get there.

Now it's only the FL bank account that matters.

Cory, quite understandably you've concentrated on pointing out the incidental advantages of 1.2, and how in many circumstances, people will be better off and will be able to build more or the same amount as before.

But you haven't addressed the major concern that people have expressed here, namely that by introducing RL money into the economy you completely change the hierarchy within the game and the relationship between the players.

The many references to There in the thread I think illustrates the level of antipathy towards this sort of social structure where it's possible simply to buy success.

Yeah, but I bet they'll make more money. That's what matters.

Talk about shock and awe! I am astounded and incredibly disappointed in what has just transpired. As a lifer and someone who owns a ton of land, I just accrued a near $100 (US) monthy bill. No thanks, if this goes into effect I am affraid I will have to be leaving SL which is such a bummer because I have enjoyed it sooooo much. I have been working my ass off to obtain the land I have now and working incredibly hard on what is going there, however now most of it will be going away and I cant say as I am very happy about this at all, thats $225 down the drain. Lindens, I know this is your game and all but dont you think putting this to a public vote among paying members would have been a good idea? Just dropping this bomb on us is near irresponsible. I would personally prefer if the only money coming into sl or going out of sl is the monthly fee or the lifetime account signups.

In short, as a lifer, I sincerely hope the Lindens will seriously reconsider these changes. If not I sincerely hope the lindens will be open to refunds on lifetime accounts.

Neil Nafus
VFX Artist
Microsoft Game Studios/Fasa Studio

What about something like my birds? I've been creating and releasing birds into the wild for a while now. These birds aren't bound to any one plot of land, or even any one sim. How will the new land and prim rules affect this?

What about Omega Games? The new system will turn them from games, an essentially unregulated activity, to gambling, which is covered by insane levels of regulation.

What about real life taxes? If you're in the US and get more than about $500 a year from these "content bonuses", you can't say it's a game or a hobby -- you'll have to pay federal income tax on it!

What about holding events? With the greatly reduced value of L$, where's the incentive to hold events?

What about online classes, or show and tell, or Boardwalk Bingo, or any of the other activities that might have high temporary prim usage in a small area?

What about the dense group projects such as DarkWood? The theme areas usually have a large number of buildings owned by many individuals clustered in a small area, with a large empty area surrounding. These buildings are frequently over the prim allowance for the land they're on. How will the new rules affect them?

What about DarkLife? It's also well over the prim allowance for the land it's on.

You own the IP, license it back to Linden Labs.

Siggy.

1. Who benefits short-term? How?
   
2. Who benefits long-term? How?
   
3. Who takes a hit, short-term? How?
   
4. Who takes a hit, long-term? How?

Currently, i own just a small plot of land so it doesn't really affect me, short-term, but how does it affect me/the whole SL community in the long run?

Further thoughts: You keep harping on the monentary benefits of the new system: most people will pay less, that some people will actually make money, and that this might fix the economic problems with SL, such as prim hogging and uncertain taxes.

Have you considered that it will simultaneously wreck the social order that's built up? Currently, a person's standing in SL depends entirely on what they do in SL: selling goods or services, helping others out, staging events, and similar activities. Under the new system, the only thing determining standing within SL has nothing to do with Second Life: how much money the person has in Real Life.

If you can build a palace filling an entire sim just by paying $195 a month, where's the incentive to host events? Where's the incentive to help others in hopes of raising your ratings bonus? Where's the incentive to design and sell new vehicles? New clothing? Architectural services? Where's the incentive to make things for Show and Tell? Your prize money can't be used to build bigger and better things.

I expect I'll be staying on in SL because it makes a good sandbox for AI work, but that's all it will be for me: a sandbox. It won't be a community any more.

Jellin and Viola,
Of course we are concerned about making Second Life the best possible online world for its users. The purpose of our changes was to improve the world and to provide better options for our customers.

Many of you are using the equivalent of the $15/mo account and the new system will allow you to pay the same or less.

Another large group of users (including many users who end of leaving Second Life) complain about $15/mo being too much to spend. With the 1.2 changes, these users will be able to stay SL residents and use it the casual way that they desire.

Amen. No longer is it a world, or a life, but just another utility/extension of first life.

__Going Once...
Getting a choice plot of land shouldn't be a matter of being the fastest avatar in a land rush or the luckiest Resident in a lottery. Second Life v1.2 adds Land Auctions as a means to distribute new land. Whether it's Linden Dollars or US Greenbacks, the boldest bidder will earn the rights to develop his or her dream plot. Login to SecondLife.com to peruse detailed listings of land for auction and place a bid! ___


This is one of the things that, quite honestly, makes me feel ill to my stomach. Land auctions in SL dependant on how much RL money you pay.

What happens when a new sim comes online, and someone bids, say, 500 rl dollars on a big chunk of land? You think it'll ever be released or sold for less that what that person paid?? Hell no!

Something I think people should consider ... a year down the road, land is going to be very expensive. And not expensive as in lindenbucks either.

People, 'entrepeneurs' will WILL buy up availible land and only sell it with RL cash. Don't think it will happen? Think again.

Cory, thank you for your reply, but you still haven't addressed the issue I raised before: the ability to buy currency effectively undermines the central principle of the game, namely that your second life is independent of your first.

I understand that Linden Labs must be as profitable as they can. I'm all for that of course. If this change is motivated by the necessity to make more cashflow, then I for one would be willing to consider paying some sort of monthly fee on top of my lifetime membership, if that's what it would take to keep SL alive. (and I'm a poor student!)

But please don't do it by breaking the game. It would be a tragedy if by trying to attract those users who complain that $15/month is too much, you drove away the customers you already have.

Here are some hard numbers as best as I can calculate them. (In other words, errors may be present, use at your own risk!)

All these numbers assume you are a member prior to the start of 1.2, and therefore eligible for the free "1/4 acre" of land that entails. For people who do not qualify for that bonus (people who join after the start of 1.2) these numbers will be incorrect.

The payment options are listed in order of total land units from smallest (cheapest) to largest (more than a whole sim). All land measurements are in 4x4 meter units, the same unit in which we buy and sell land currently (prior to 1.2).

64 is $0/mo
96 is $5/mo (45 months = life)
128 is $8/mo (28 = life)
192 is $15/mo (15 = life)
256 is flat $225 - LIFETIME MEMBERSHIP
(288 is LIFE + $5/mo)
(320 is LIFE + $8/mo)
320 is $25/mo
(384 is LIFE + $15/mo)
(512 is LIFE + $25/mo)
576 is $40/mo
(768 is LIFE + $40/mo)
1088 is $75/mo
(1280 is LIFE + $75/mo)
2102 is $125/mo
(2304 is LIFE + $125/mo)
4160 is $195/mo
(4352 is LIFE + $195/mo)

Prim usage will be allocated by amount of land owned. The ratio should be at least 2.44 prims per land unit, if not more. (I suspect more, after 1.2.) At that ratio, the base 64 units will come with 156 prims, for example.

I hope this helps.

EDIT: First mistake fixed... I had the One-time fee added in monthly. Prices are now listed lower, and hopefully, correctly now.

EDIT: You don't buy land with real life money...

If you want a billion prims, you need to own enough land to support them (2.44 prims per unit of land, or more in 1.2).

To own land, you have to buy it at land auctions with IN-GAME money.

The more land you own, the more you pay each month. (In lieu of taxes.)

I think people are looking at this all wrong. I don't think Cory should have to explain why introducing RL money to buy land isn't a good idea. One major reason, which is that no matter how much money you have, you can buy land, but you can't buy the skills to turn that land into something great. Sure, you have a lot of land, but how much does that really matter? It's not like you get extra money from owning a lot of land, and it's not like people will respect you more because you have a lot of land. It's not like someone who spends a hundred dollars a month to own a whole sim is going to end up being your ruler in SL, and you'll need to bend to every one of their wishes. Nothing like this will happen. This gives all players a chance to own land and build without worrying about not having their fair share of prims.

Another major concern that people have voiced is that people will no longer work hard to make lots of money and land. I have a feeling that we won't see much changing in the way of people working hard to earn more. That's what the land credits are all about, and the US dollars for creative builds. It allows people to build today what they may not be able to build for a long time. It evens out the playing field greatly. All of the veteren players have worked their way up to the position they've gotten themselves in. I've done it myself, and am living very comfortably in my modest existance. But there have been many projects which have been stifled simply because i didn't have the Lindenbucks, or the prims needed to complete my project. This allows for new players, who have great ideas, to start on these ideas right away, rather than it being a distant dream they can't quite reach. This can become extremely frustrating for people. I've even heard of it as shifting the favor to the Newbies from the neutural stance. I don't believe that, in fact, all this is doing is actually balancing things out. Some of the people who work their way up to the top end up hoarding prims or even wasting prims, because they feel that it is their right to. That's fine and all, but that's how sims get to 100% object usage, while land ownership is only about 60%. I think limiting resources is a great way to keep the sims evened out, and allow there to be enough land and prims to go around for all.

Just my 2 cents though.

This is not about the money. The concerns I raise in my second post can be answered entirely without the use of dollar signs. It seems to me that Linden Labs has sold out to the almighty dollar, and no longer cares about the community that it had built up.

I remember a few weeks ago, when Briana was under the microscope for hiding prims. She made a wonderful suggestion about taxing people who used more prims over a certain limit in a higher bracket.

What was wrong with that idea? If people were given a good amount of prims in relationship to the amount of land they owned and then taxed at a higher rate if they went over that percentage, the person would either have to derez prims or work their butt off to make more money to afford the extra tax. That would have kept the economy stable and kept prims much more under control.

There is and was NO need to introduce RL money into this game.

The fact is that we do not know enough to make any sort of rational decisions/forecasts about SL's fucture. We need more information.

Nada out, be back in the morning to read the next 3 pages.