What a wonderful thing to wake up to!

It wouldn't happen. I think you know why. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't have done it when I was new either. Had I done it accidentally, I would've certainly contacted the owner or a Linden.


Your whole argument is based on assumption, the assumption that this person has been railroaded by the Lindens and is sharing a cell with Grimmy Moonflower. You don't know that the person wasn't only warned. You are also assuming that the Lindens did not do any investigation. Maybe they looked at chat logs and the info they needed to make a call was there. Maybe the person did it accidentally. Maybe the person confessed. The point is, we don't know. Andrew simply stated some possible outcomes. I would think that the circumstances were or will be delved into and a proper outcome will ensue. Getting mired down in technicalities about an issue that we have been informed is considered a violation of the Community Standards (IF it was intentional) is a bit of a waste, especially because we don't know what, if any, action was taken or what info the Lindens were able to gather.

This is the second time you have said that something "isn't fair". What about what wasn't fair to Siobhan? Victim reversal technique rears its ugly head again.

I did not say you excused RL happenings. I said that it was excusing SL happenings by virtue of pointing out the fact that there are RL laws that would get one in trouble by performing this type of action. We go online and suddenly it's not real anymore, we can just forget our manners and run wild with things that other people are paying monthly fees to create and maintain?

In RL is it actually the law that stops you from burying your neighbor's yard in tons of earth? Probably not. What then, is the reason? I have a guess, although I suppose it only applies in RL for some folks. Do we really need to define common sense and courtesy? More excuses for bad behavior based upon the "this is not RL" argument.

That's all I have to say about it. I will not be drawn into a a protracted debate as I won't be changing my mind about the issue. Simply because I see nitpicking the CS in defense of miscreants as counter productive and disingenious lawyering in a world where there is no court system, only a private company enforcing their policies, whether they are spelled out for us or not.

I agree that it definately needs to be reworked. It would've been nice had that been part of the group controls when they first came out.

Nolan,

I am not making any assumptions of what happened to this person, I am saying there SHOULD be an amendment added to the CS before anything happens. I am not saying he IS innocent, I am saying he COULD be. The CS should have been amended the first time this happened with the private island sims, though that was very different.

It is not fair to Sio no. However, if this was (and yes I am going off on an assumption here, OMG!) an accident or anything like it, and this person WAS banned or suspended, whatever, it would be unfair to this person.

You can keep a closed mind about this issue, that is fine. I will not change my stance either... the CS needs to be amended to include Vandalism, and many other things that have been happening lately. We NEED clear-cut rules, and consequences.

I guess we are on different tangents here.

It seems you want it defined, as vandalism or otherwise. While I wouldn't mind having it defined, I don't think it's necessary to define every possible way in which someone could possibly grief someone. That is where common sense should come into play.

It's virtually impossible to preconcieve of every possible avenue for griefing, therefore these situations need to be handled on a case by case basis, the outcome being a precedent set. I do agree that as these precedents are set, they should be added to the CS to insure that those members who would participate in such an activity won't have an excuse.

It's always interesting to see that no matter how badly one griefs, there is always someone ready to defend him. We have enough attorneys setting criminals free in first life, you know?

Precisely Nolan. It is not a matter of common sense, it is a matter of rules. If there was a rule in place that said, for example "You may not edit publicly editable land without first receiving explicit permission from the owner" then I would have no problem. However, since there is no rule on this at all, and it is actually very grey on LL's stance on this issue, then I do not feel a punishment of banning or suspension would fit the crime until the rules are in place. There HAS to be rules, not everyone has the same beliefs or "common sense" as everyone else.

As from my previous post, what you just said, Vade, seems to me morally despicable exactly like an attorney that has a criminal set free just because the policemen that arrested him didnt read him his rights.
He turned a beautifully terraformed land he didn't own into a mountain, burying a WHOLE mall with everyone's products in it under the mountain itself. This requires quite an extensive effort that excludes any possibility of lack of malicious behavioir.
Again i'm astonished at how griefers always find someone to defend them.

Do not make this something it is not. Yes, that is the case in RL, and yes that does happen. However, this is SL. Yes, we do need rules, we need to know what is going to happen if we break X law, and we need to know what to do if this happens to us.

I'm not astonished. Griefers at least have their alt to defend them.

'nuff said.

If the person who did this moral set allows for such behavior then they are not a desirable customer or co-player. "Common" in this case represents "generally shared". Most laws are born of generally shared ideals and socially normative expectations of public behavior. Turning a blind eye to common sense, common courtesy, social norms, logic and the like is generally not tolerated, regardless of whether or not there is a specific rule pertaining to the particular behavior being displayed.

That's fine, but just because there isn't a clearly defined law doesn't nullify the fact that certain behavior is inappropriate nor should it absolve responsibilty. I am fairly sure that this incident would have taken place regardless of whether or not there was a specific "thou shalt not bury your neighbor's mall" rule detailed in the CS. Somehow I can't bring myself to believe that the person responsible was the type to comb through the CS before engaging in such an activity.

I feel I need to clear some points up at this stage, having just got out of bed to see a virtual war break out.

1. The 'mall' wasn't buried. It floats at telehub height (around sim+70m) normally. Ground normal is about 25m. The ground was raised by 40m to around 65m. The results of this act penertated the base of the mall, but didn't encroach on the shopping floor, nor on any merchant's wears. Of course, the mall was the only thing on the land that survived. There were a few pretty sights on the land; these were lost (but will return). The mall was not one of them, but then, in my opinion, malls aren't pretty either, which was one reason it was up in the air out of the way.

2. I left edit permission on only because I forgot to turn it off after an editing session. Now why I need to give the world edit perms on my land just so a friend can plant a few trees is beyond me, but so it is. About 6 months ago, there was the case of "Acidic Flight". A certain Land Baron had taken to placing Land Scanners in every sim. Where he couldn't get land, he put them on other people's land where there was build/script permission, or even just script perms as he could float them in from elsewhere. His excuse - "If your land allows this, then it's permission for me to do it". Like not locking your front gate is permission for passers by to (a) dump trash or (b) let their dog crap on your lawn. (Even though neither of these perms could have stopped it - NoBuild/NoScript don't work above 70m). This is the same. I left my front lawn unconcreted... IT WAS NOT permission for someone to dig it up to test their spade.

3. The market and stonehenge monument had been seperately parcelled off. There were no errant perms on these. They were equally affected, but this time because suddenly they were no longer visible, not easily accessible. Cienna's PrimCrafters store suddenly had a 40m wall of rock in front of the entrance.

Other people were affected. While the damaged land belonged to one person, me... this affected the entire sim. Now I'm not screaming for perma-bans. If the Lindens check the logs and such is in order, then great. It might be this person has done it before and has been warned. It might, on the other hand be a first offence and the person resoponsible didn't 'fess up because he (or she) was afraid. Maybe they crashed... I make no judgement on that point. But the logs will be checked, the person will be found, and whatever action the Lindens deem right, will be done.

I'm just happy the Lindens put the land back.

And Vade, why so defensive of this person anyway? Was it you?

Sio, I don't think that he's particularly defensive of whoever did the deed, it was by all evidence a dispicable act. I can't speak for Vade, but for me this whole event is symptomatic of a much larger issue within SL.

We need hard-coded, self-managed ways to deal with ourselves, and each other, to the greatest extent that is manageable. A better permissions system is possible, and should be implemented. Until then, individual landowners IMO should be held responsible as much as possible for their own territitories. Do you want a SL where there is a Linden quick-response unit to deal with all such grievances? It'll happen; and you can afford it; after all, you're already footing their bills at $1000+ and $200 per month. For the rest of us, however, it's going to cost noticeably more than a one-time $9.95 fee, or a nominal Tier subscription. Prices will go UP, and they will be directly related to the amount of staff that LL has to hire, yearly salaries, Medical dental benefits, stock options, 401k; in order to keep us kiddies from bloodying each others' noses.

What happens to Mocha now? Assuming that we don't get a better permissions system anytime soon, will your island's editing options ever be left on again? If the same thing happens, say, 5 months from now; if the land-editing is left on overnight and some chucklehead goes to town on your sim, will another rollback be the appropriate action, disicpline/banning for the offender and no extra money out-of-pocket from you, for the extra work the Lindens had to do?

Again, I'm NOT saying that you are at-fault here. The permissions system is severely under-equipped for the wide variety of ways that we want to permit others to access our land and our things in Second Life. Do we really want a Second Life, though, where the Lindens are responsible for fixing things when others do the worst-possible-thing to our land, using permissions that we ourselves set?

I have made myself abundantly clear. I have stated my views time and time again now. If you cannot understand what I am saying, I am sorry, there is nothing I can do.



Nice try. Do you accuse everyone who disagrees with any of your views? Do you feel better throwing accusations out because SOMEONE destroyed your land due to your negligence? No, I did not do it, and no an alt of mine did not do it. Do I still feel the same way? Yes.

"Was it you?" is a question. Incidentally, a question we'd all been wondering, asked politely, quietly, and with nothing that implied your involvment.

"It was you!" would have been the accusation you're objecting to.

This post brought to you by Grammar Fascists.

I understand what you are saying and I am sure that many of us do. I understand that there should be better Land Editing Tools. I understand that you would like the TOS and/or the CS to be more specific as to what is against Linden Law. Unfortunately, not every aspect of the TOS and/or the CS can be as specific as we want it to be. If they included behavior that would be inappropriate due to common sense, the list of ban-able offenses would be 50 pages long.
Also, LL has the right to change the TOS and/or the CS, if they so please. Tomorrow they could decide that wearing neon colors causes lag and therefore anyone wearing these colors will be suspended (just an example, no need to panic Torley ). We might not like this, but it is their law.

While you may not consider this sort of behavior to be related to common sense, many people do. If I see that someone has a beautifully terraformed plot of land, with a mall and other niceties on said land, and I notice that their land tools allow others to mess with the land, I wouldn't terraform their land into a sky-high mountain (which by the way requires a lot of effort). My common sense tells me that this would be wrong and that doing this sort of thing will most likely ruin the beautiful setting of their mall. If by some reason my common sense escaped me that day and I did something like this, I would send a message to the owner and apologize. But of course, that's just me and my common sense.

Hiya Sio,

I kept myself up to date by reading the thread yesterday and was very pleased to hear that you got your sim rolled back and that the Lindens actually see it the same way we all do (well most of us).

Happy it all worked out!

Huggerz,
MJ

Nice sarcasm, but I think its fair to consider that this may not have been an intentional act. Perhaps it would be helpful to remember the destructive land editing script that is part of almost all freebie script boxes. When the script box is rezzed that script is running.

Many months ago I rezzed that box in Green while looking for a script and my land was raised instantaneously and dramatically. The entire large plot turned instantly into a huge mountain. This event had nothing to do with the existence or lack of common sense. Someone put the script in the prim running and this script has a rapid and dramatic impact on the land.

So sarcasm, while it may be a feel good tactic, really is not constructive for considering the possibility that this may not have been an intentional act. I am willing to consider the possibility that one of the newer members who attend classes at the learning center adjacent to the impacted land could have just messed up.

I also am willing to consider that it was a jerk griefer who did this with a mean intent. The logs will reveal what the circumstance was.

I am also glad that this situation has been resolved.

I did not intend to be sarcastic in my post, since I truly do believe that every person has their own perspective of what common sense is (which is why I posted that that's what my common sense tells me). The same way that some players find more believable that this was not an act committed by a griefer and it was just a new player experimenting, some of us find more believable that this could have been done on purpose since it would have been kind of hard not to notice the ground lifting under your avatar's feet. The logs will tell, or at least give an idea wether it was intentional or not.