Dwell Abuse

The dwell system exists PRECISELY to reward those who do NOT create the latest and greatest SL novelty, but still manage to contribute to the SL experience by creating an environment in which people will enjoy spending time.
Look, if you have special skill in a certain area, you can make one hell of a lot more money than you can make off of dwell, even if the L$ has dropped in value somewhat.
So quit whining.

I recognize some of the names in the screen shot. They hung out the Spittoonie Casino to get free money.

Grab a copy of the Spittoonie Money machines (free to copy if you find one). People who sit around won't get paid Priority given to Yatzee players.

Eventually we will start gaming the dwell by holding events.

Okay, let me propose a few things...

#1. The people sitting there are not interacting with the world, and they are not being logged off. They have found a way to circumvent the idle timeout that forces us to log out after 30 minutes of inactivity. I've observed them over several days, and several friends have seen them and other people there for months, doing absolutely nothing. I doubt they are all there writing notecards, and developing scripts without testing them in actual notecards. They are zombies, they don't respond or interact with the world. But the client seems to think so.
#2 They are there for a reason, to get free L$ or to directly or indirectly help the land owner. They are not there to explore, with dwell used as an independent measurement of a places popularity. Their reason for being there is to dwell long enough to get money.
#3. The land owner must have noticed the people sitting there, you can't miss them. And notice that they are at the top of the PG dwell list. They must have put 2 and 2 together to come to the realization that they are gaining dwell by seripticious means.

So, the owner of Chaos Gaming Theory, while I'm not directly accusing them in my post, are complicit in the gaming of the dwell. I'm just exposed the players in the scheme, the people sitting there, who are abusing the system to generate dwell and receive L$ in return for that abuse.

As for people wanting an apology, why do you want that? What have I done wrong here? I've shown screenshots of people sitting at a plot of land, obviously working around the idle timeout, and artificially inflating the dwell on said plot of land. I didn't say anything else about them, call them names, say they were evil. I'm just exposing what is going on. If it upsets people that they were caught doing it, or are benefiting from said scheme, then maybe they should look at what is going on and wonder why they are attacking me for exposing it.

There are plenty of other examples identical or similiar to this, done by other places in SL. Just look at the top dwell earners, visit their places, and you'll see. Some people directly paid to just sit there and inflate dwell, some people paid indirectly by free money givers to sit there and do nothing other than inflate dwell, and some people working their tails off to provide good entertainment and/or activities that encourage people to come and stay at their places and add to their dwell counts. Gee, I wonder who should be rewarded with the monthly US$ and daily L$ Develpoper incentives given out by LL. All of them, or the last one in my example?

Yes you did single me out, at least in this post. You have outright accused me of gaming the dwell system. I own Chaos Theory Gaming and am the only one who could possibly benefit from "dwell gaming". The people sitting on MY wall are not my alts, nor have I instructed them (directly or indirectly) to sit there and generate dwell for me. You have falsely accused me.



If they are gaming anything, they are gaming my free money machine. Its original intention was not to have people sitting on the wall sponging MY money (well in excess of L$1500 per day - which by the way adds up to about L$45k per month: far more than the developer incentive I get for their dwell). That said, if ANYONE should have a problem with it, it should be me. However, I do not. If I ever do, I will do something about it.




Yes you did, and no they aren't. See above.



AGAIN, I REITERATE. THE PEOPLE ON THE WALL DO NOT BENEFIT FROM MY DWELL AT ALL. And Hank, I *do* develop new and interesting things. I am putting the finishing touches on a pretty nifty object to object network game engine right now - it uses technology even YOU would be hard pressed to emulate, if I may be so bold. It has taken all of my time in SL (which has become diminished somewhat these days) to do so. BEFORE then, I had regular events with many impromtu games & contests. THAT is what originally got me to the top of the charts. I am not a newbie club owner who does nothing but soak dwell. I script and I am damned good at it. I worked my ass off, in other words. DEVELOPING.



Of course I take it personally. You created this thread showing my place as an example of gaming the system. And again, NO ONE AT MY PLACE IS ABUSING THE DWELL SYSTEM. If they are abusing anything, they are abusing my free money machine, which is quite frankly none of your business.



No, I am upset that the dwell system allows it. Those people would be sitting on my wall collecting money whether or not the dwell system was in place or not. Why? BECAUSE I GIVE AWAY A LOT OF MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And guess what? I AM NOT GOING TO STOP DOING IT BECAUSE I AM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG, UNDERHANDED OR SHADY! I WAS DOING THIS BEFORE THE DWELL SYSTEM EXISTED!


Hank, I have always looked at you with respect. You promote education in SL and that is commendable. However, I am not going to let this thread die until either I get a public apology or you publicly refuse to give me one. I want you to:

1. Ackowledge that I am not gaming the system and you were mistaken.
2. Apologize to me for posting this thread because it was inappropriate.
3. Apologize to the people sitting on the wall for implying they were in some sort of conspiracy with me to game the system, because you now realize they were not gaming the dwell system.

OR if you do not think I deserve an apology, I want you to ackowledge you have read my responses to this and even after you have obtained all the facts you still think I am deliberately gaming the system.

I just want it to be crystal clear to the world where you stand on this with regard to me. Not your opinions of the dwell system, nor on people gaming the system in general but your opinion on whether or not I am somehow maliciously abusing the system myself via Chaos Theory Gaming.

You have the facts, you have heard from me, you have heard from my patrons and you have heard form those who know me and those who reside in the same sim as Chaos Theory. Draw your final conslusion with regard to this thread and this thread only, and let us all know how you stand.

I thank you in advance.

With regards,
Antagonistic Protagonist

Soo.. uh, why do you tolerate it?



Oh, okay. So, you have a device that pays users to plant their agents on your land for indefinite period; L$ in exchange for intangibles e.g.: dwell points.



Right. They're not there because you put them there or told them to go there. They're there because you pay them to be there.



To insinuate that you don't game the dwell system to some degree is both inaccurate and misleading, given what you've already said. I don't know if gaming == abuse. It doesn't appear to violate the ToS, so it's in a grey area. The company it keeps there isn't so good, since that places it in camp with profit-oriented land scanning, real estate market manipulation, and all those other things mindful people tend to hate.


On an unrelated note, can anyone explain while Tan, the sim where Chaos Gaming resides, hasn't had its Sim FPS hold above 100 FPS in more than four days? What the heck is grinding that sim into the dirt?



Would that be an apology be for the pointing out how users are placing agents to dwell at Chaos Gaming, or
encouraging others to look for and document dwell irregularities? Because that is *all* he did. You deny a number of allegations that Hank never made; you doth protest muchly.

If you feel Chaos Gaming's dwell magnet is being mischaracterized, maybe you should modify it to require interaction?

Sincerely,
Chromal

I wish I knew. It ain't me though, which you are insinuating. Cute.



Actually, its purpose is to encourage people to play my games. I point to the fact it existsed well before the dwell system. The fact people are abusing it is not its intention, but tolerable under the current system.

And again, I pay out WAY more each month than I get in L$ from dwell and developer incentive combined.

It is more and more apparant that this is a "sour grapes" thread.

-AP

1. You are benefiting from the gaming of the dwell system. You allow people, willingly, to artificially increase the dwell on your land in exchange for L$, randomly given out. You can't deny that.
2. I shouldn't have said where the people were idling and gaming the dwell system, that was a mistake. I apologize for mentioning who was benefiting from the dwell.
3. I will not apologize to the people on the wall for intentionally bypassing the idle timeouts built into the system. They are stealing from you and from everyone else who works hard in SL.

Did you intentionally setup a system to game dwell? I don't think so. You do a lot of development in SL. But, you should realize what they are doing and the benefits you are achieving, it's painfully obvious.

Maybe I should have picked a harder to document target. Your place was one of the easiest and fastest places to find obvious abuse of the dwell system. It wasn't your direct intention to game the dwell system, but you do benefit from it's flaws. Didn't you ever notice zombies just sitting there, doing nothing? Didn't you notice your position on the popularity leader boards. Didn't you notice the US$ developer incentives check in the mail from LL? I'll post pics from other places next, and I'm sure I'll get an earful from that.

So where does this leave us. We obviously have several folks who support our sides of the issue. You have demanded that I give an apology and retract everything I've said. I've considered that; giving into peer pressure and just sinking back into the ether. I may lose some friends for standing up for this point. But where are we with dwell and developer incentives? Are you seriously providing a benefit and development from the community by enticing people to become zombies? I know and respect the work you do in SL, but you should know better and want to prevent the abuse that they are perpetuating. Maybe rather than saying that I should retract what I am saying, come up with ideas to prevent abuse of the dwell system (and btw, abuse of your free money machine).

I am truly sorry if this is upsetting people who never intended to abuse the dwell system. If I'm wrong, then burn me at the stake. I'm trying to help bring about a fair measurement and reward of people who contribute to SL.

And note, I don't think I contribute that much, and this isn't about sour grapes from me (and don't respond to that with praise, or not, please). There are many talented people who deserve developer incentives for the things they have done in SL. Antagonistic, you included. But the dwell that your place gets from these zombies is well deserved developer incentives given to you via ill gotten means.

I have to come out on Taggy's side on this. Chaos Theory Gaming was THE big factor in my enjoyment of SL during my first few weeks. It was the only place back then that had any type of "Free Money" and I firmly believe all the current places with a money ball are run by people who started out sitting in CTG as newbies, and then copied the idea.

I may be one of the few people who go to CTG to play, these days. If I find myself with L$0 in my account, and I need to upload a texture or two for building, I'll head on over there and play Acey Deucey, Pick-A-Number or Tony Tigereye's excellent Blackjack until I have enough for my uploads. If I pick up some Free Money while I'm there, all the better - especially as it means the wall-sitters lose out on that round

I see nothing inherently wrong in wall-sitting while someone scripts or works offline in Photoshop. I am 100% sure that most wall-sitters are happy, contributing people to the Second Life world. A few may not be - I know back when we had the rash of fly-by land thieves and one was identified on the forums, I spotted him wall-sitting the next day. So yes - there are people who will game the system in any way possible for those extra L$10, L$20 etc. But there are many more who enjoy CTG and Taggy's creations for what they are - fun ways to win a few more L$s towards your First Land costs.

If ya'll don't stop talking about "zombies", I'm going to park a few of MY zombies on Taggy's wall. Then you'll really have something to complain about.

LF

Okay, I retract it all.

Public Apology to Antagonistic Protagonistic:
============================
I am very sorry if I singled out Chaos Theory Gaming for intentionally or unintentionally gaming the dwell system. The Developer Incentives and Popular Place free advertisements are well deserved for the benefits that your plot and your scripting/building brings to SL.

It was inappropriate for me to pick on Taggy as she doesn't deserve being accused of gaming the dwell system. You did not intend to game the dwell system, and I'm sorry I acused you of it. Nobody deserves that. I am sorry.

Public Apology to The Wall Sitters:
======================
I am very sorry for singling you guys/gals out. You have every right to sit there, earning L$ from Antagonistic's free money giver. It's wonderful how you found ways to avoid the idle timeouts. Very Creative thinking! You guys are probably working on some new scripting, texturing, or building creation in SL. I'm sorry for accusing you of gaming the dwell system. I hope the L$ you earn will help you to further your fun and enjoyment of SL.

The feel good comedy of the summer! Two very enthusastic thumbs up.

And for the record, my developer incentive and position on the boards is far LOWER than it has been in the past. When I was actively promoting Chaos Theory, I was consistantly in the top 5 for all overall dwell. The reason for this is that I have been working on new stuff rather than hosting events. Dont worry, I am almost done with my new stuff and I will be hosting regular events once again. Hopefully no one will complain when I do.

Hank ... although you did not respond exactly within the parameters I demanded, you adhered to the spirit of the demand, which was to make your views on the matter clear. You have done so and I will accept that.

For the record, I still feel slighted.

Yes, there are a lot of mooches at Chaos Theory. However, the fact that some may be artifically inflating their time in world does nto affect dwell. If they stayed logged in for their 20 minutes of idle time and were then logged out, I would receive the exact same amount of dwell as I do now, assuming they did not vist any other place. The only person who is affected negatively by their actions is me. And I dont mind too much, since it is tough to determine which ones are abusing the idle timeout and which ones are sitting htere while they work on a script or photoshop or whatever. I cant tell, but I definitely dont mind people who want to sit around and do nothing choocing my place to do it. Yes, it is because of the free money. So what? That just means that to those people, winning free money is more to their liking than being at a club or sitting by a waterfall while they work.

If people feel like sitting around in SL, they are welcome to do so at my place. Yes, I benefit from it. No, I dont care. Yes, I think I deserve it. They choose to sit around there. Would you be upset if they chose to sit around on a park bench in a virtual garden?

Look for new and exciting stuff coming soon at either Chaos Theory Gaming or Delta S Gaming (the sister location to Chaos Theory). When that happens, look for my dwell to get even better - hopefully back on par to where it was a couple months ago.

That is all.

-AP

Ahh, you posted your retraction while I was posting the above.

While you are probably being sarcastic, I will accept it anyway.

Time to let the thread die.

-AP

Huh?

I see your Huh? and Raise you a Whaaaaaa?

OK, that was wrong of me. I should not have assumed you were being sarcastic.

I apologize for that.

-AP

I wish to ditto this for myself. This was exactly how I felt as posting in this thread Taggy!

I see all sides of this argument. And as much as I want to say something important, I find that my thoughts just won't cohese into clarity.

However, IMO, anyone who has big dwell *and* a money machine should be ready for criticism. It doesn't matter if the money machine pre-dated dwell. It doesn't matter if the person with the money machine is losing money on the proposition. IMO, it doesn't even matter if the proceeds from the dwell are being given to charity or used to support the coolest thing SL has ever seen.

The bottom line is that we need for cool things to pay for themselves. period.

It's funny, but Chaos was one of the first places i visited. Not so long ago, I guess, but it seems like a long time ago to me. And I was there only a short time, but I was given some money. And I thought that was really cool. And I thought the idea of alternative casino games was really cool. And I wondered about what kind of algorithm you would employ to keep something like that afloat. But I had no idea about dwell. And although I saw some people sitting on the wall, I really didn't think much about it.

But, now, I know about dwell and I think alot about it. I can't help myself. I honestly don't want to think about it, but I do. I think about the dwell that I will give myself by being on my own land. I think about the dwell that clubs and casinos get. I think about all of it and it honestly sickens me. And yet, I can't resist the temptation to keep thinking about it.

I think the idea of giving money to people when they first come to a place is a *GREAT* idea. If it is a casino, it might make people more likely to play games. That is legitimate and a good and noble purpose. But...things get murky when you keep giving them money *and* they aren't playing *and* you are getting big dwell. Maybe the dwell isn't enough to pay for all of the money going out, but it probably does make it financially feasible to sustain this type of activity.

I honestly don't know if that is good or bad. But it really shouldn't be a surprise that people would question it.

What if the money ball handed out tokens instead of Lindens? The owner states that the original intent was for people to receive the freebie Lindens so they could play in the casino. Instead of L$20, the winner of each money-ball-minute gets 20 tokens. The tokens work with special machines setup to receive them. The user drags the tokens onto the machine, which then recognizes the token, subtracts it from the amount needed to play the game, and kills the token. When enough tokens are dragged/dropped, the game plays. At that point, winnings are handed out in real Linden dollars and the casino op. gets earned dwell, versus bought dwell.

Not that I care about dwell or ratingsanyway, but I thought this would be a good idea to try.

I think I see what's going on here.
Hank runs SL University ( I believe it is called ) which helps out new players by providing them with help and maybe a place to "live". I am guessing that because of this, his concern is that this type of build will never get the type of incentive bonus it arguably deserves because of the shopping malls, casinos, and whatever else people choose to sit and spend time at, because of the "broken" dwell system, something that has actually been a concern of mine for some time.
I might be wrong, but this is my guess.

Code it up, post it to the forums and I will consider using it, if it has a generic & flexible enough API.


-AP

Nahh, I figured out that only the places that game the dwell system (and I'm not saying that anyone in particular is gaming the dwell system, lest I be pummeled outworld and inworld for saying it) get the developer incentives. I never cared about making money. USL only folded under underwhelming support for people to actually teach or to contribute time to the project, not dwell concerns.

This wasn't about whether people deserved dwell or not, because of what they did on their plot. I was only trying to stop cheating of the dwell system.

The thing that has been lost on everyone is that I FULLY SUPPORT eliminating the cheating of the dwell system. I just maintain that I am not one of the people who do so.

There are several people who log in *their own* alts at their clubs/casinos/whatever to *artifically* inflate dwell. THAT is cheating the dwell system and I am all in favor of getting rid of those people.

-AP

TAGGY AND HANK!

I love you both. You're both assets to SL.

Hank, you've been my cynical bro about the worst things SL has to offer, while striving with me to promote the best SL has to offer.

Taggy, you've been my cynical sis about the worst thigns in SL has to offer, while striving with me to promote the best SL has to offer.

Hank, my friend, there are better targets.

Taggy, my friend, Hank has a point about dwell - he just picked the wrong target.

Its been beat to death. The two of you should now realize - this far in the thread - that you're arguing the same points. There's not reason Hank should have to put up with this nonsense in the dwell system day after day when he has tried - consistently - to offer some much to enrich the Second Life community. And Taggy should realize that there's no reason she should have to babysit a popular plot for people trying to gain an extra L$20 or game her games.

Because of the content of this thread, I'm going to program a free raffle ball. The winner will get a NOTECARD with the insite and wisdom of the SL gurus. Scripters, texturers (is that a word?), builders, lag fighters - IM ME FOR MORE INFO!

You're both assets. You're both wonderful. I salute you both. Hug and let it end.

Regards,

-Flip