Question on the rules I have "violated" Please read.

Actually, I'm so old the school was "CYOA" by letting the pictures stand - it was in the day when free speech rules "uber alles" - if you'll excuse the pun.



First, I live in Jessie, and so have to see the image if I am to be on my own land, so there IS something "making" me either view the image or move.

Second, you'd have to be a complete idiot NOT to know pictures of Hitler piss of Jews. Now, you can argue that person X never thought about that, but clearly it has since been pointed out to this person. I am REALLY TIRED of people hiding behing the "Hey, this isn't about the Jews" thing to justify what is clearly hate-mongering.

But here is my biggest beef with this - it's my understanding the poster of these images was one of the WWIIOLers. WHAT THE HELL? Did you miss the whole reason that was the "last good war?" Have you SEEN the pictures of the liberation of the concentration camps?

When the WWIIOLers came back to Jessie, I was all happy. I thought, "Wow, here will be some WARRIORS with a noble cause!" You can imagine how disappointed I have been...

WWIIOLers? Um... World War 2 I get, but what is the OL? Total curiousity on this one.

I still don't think I see your point in putting it up in the first place. It doesn't take rocket science to know that a lot of people would find it offensive. Why bring it into SL? I'm all for free speech and self expression, but along with that comes social responsiblity. If you have a reasonable expectation of the majority being offended, why do it? And what is it with people in Jessie and symbols that represent such hatred and bigotry to so many? What exactly is the appeal of nazi stuff and confederate flags? I just don't get it. You're certainly entitled to express yourself but I have to question your judgement on this one.

THe OL means On Line.. they came from another game, World War II Online, and then left. They are back. It's hard for me to undertand how anyone playing an Allied soldier in an online game could mistake the meaning of a picture of Hitler - but several have. In my opinion - inflamatory as it may be - they think they're playing Mai Lai Online.

This makes perfect sense to me. The name Hitler basically MEANS racism in the same way that Einstein is used to "mean" intelligence. I'm a big fan of free speech but even if this is covered by "free speech" (not saying it should be), it's showing a pretty damn bad lack of respect for other people's feelings.

In defense of the "WWIIOL"ers, I've been one, and Axis players are not racist. (I'm sure there are a few bad apples, obviously.) I also can't remember ever seeing pictures of Hitler used in forum signatures (closest analogy I could think of) by Axis players, and I think part of the reason is just basic common sense. I know nobody directly implied that players of the game are racist...just thought I should make that point in case someone gets that impression.

Of course it is free speech. How could it not be? The issue is simply that the Lindens have the right to censor whatever they please because they own the SL world. And thats fair as far as I am concerned.

Feel free put up posters of Hitler in your front yard if you like - it is your right to do so .. but the Lindens have said "no" to doing it in world. Thats really all there is to the matter.

-AP

Phoenix Thanks for actually understanding it was anti-Peacekeeper. Although I would advise you to stop defending me People might hit your rating to. I find it odd the reactions. Hitler didnt just kill the jews. He killed a wide variety of ethnics. Bad taste to use Hitler. I guess if I would of used Stalin, Hussien, or other communist/dictators/evil people the reactions wouldnt be as upsetting. I did not put up the picture to offend the jewish community or offend anyone. My picture did not say anything racist. It wasnt my intention for people to get offended racially, it was my intention for people to realize the actions of the peacekeepers. This has been turned from a question/discussion about the rules into a racial discussion/history lesson. Maybe this will help out the lindens to prevent this from happening again. I hope you all realize a picture of hitler isnt the only thing that can be offensive to some people.

Yeah, that's basically the bottom line here in the end.

Btw, nowadays with all the lawsuits going around for looking at someone the wrong way, the definition of free speech has gotten a little hazy, I think. Legal system in the US is so screwy...

(this was a response to the post before the last, btw, didn't see fueltanker's post when I replied here)

I am not a member of WW2ol. I have no idea where you got this info from bhodi. I was the one who put up the picture. Dont bring their group into this discussion. They are a good group of people that happen to play a game called World War2 online. Dont hold that against them. Again they had nothing to do with this, and to bring them into this is utterly stupid.

You did intend to offend someone. The Peacekeepers. There is no other reason to bring someone like Hitler into this other than to be offensive.

By putting their name on a picture of Hitler, you were saying that Hitler and the Peacekeepers were similar.

This means two things to diffrent people.

1. The Peacekeepers did something as terible as kill 6 milion people in cold blood and start a world war. That they are inhuman and the worst kind of evil.

2. That Hitler's actions were like people in a video game playing around, and so what's so wrong with that?

You can say you didn't realise this, or mean any of it.. but you can *NOT* get away without admitting clearly and without excuses that yes, bringing Hitler into such a stupid argument was wrong and way out of line. The Peacekeepers and the Lindens have done absolutly NOTHING to compare to Hitler. You can make meaningless statments like "They both lived on this planet!" but you just can't compare that man to people who have done nothing more than piss you off. Free speech has nothing to do with it.. this is just common human decency.

There are a few things in this world so emotionally charged that you just DO NOT use them for minor matters. Just take a little time before doing something like this again and try and get some perspective.

never compared the lindens to hitler

Fueltanker, I didn't see you post the Hitler images, but I'll say the same thing to you that I did to Raziel when he did the same thing last week: it is incredibly offensive. You should have known better.

As for the "free speech" argument, that doesn't apply to private property, which the Linden Lab servers are. If LL wants to remove the images because they'll offend customers, then they have every legal and moral right to do so.

You crossed a line Fueltanker.

Next time make it a photoshop of a redneck and a pig and some text that read "Peacekeepers #$&* pigs". There are 1000 ways to express yourself or to convey emotion without using a hitler pic.

If the sign was just anti-peacekeeper that would be one thing but the sign has imagery loaded with other meanings implied by historical experience. To chose such an image is, in the least, in poor taste because of the offense it could cause (not just to peacekeepers, but to -everyone-). I think it is appropriate the Lindens ask you to take it down. Just replace it with another sign and deal with it.

Or just admit they pwnd you

Pirate

While I can well understand Darwin's point of view, I strongly disagree with it. I am also ethnically Jewish. My uncle was killed in World War II during the Ardennes Offensive (commonly known as the Battle of the Bulge).

I am not offended by representations of Hitler, or even Nazi symbols, because it is vitally important for people to be frequently reminded of the horrors perpetrated in the name of his racist ideology.

What does offend me is censorship. When fascist dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, etc. gain political control, their first priority is inevitably censorship of free speech. I am offended when anyone takes it upon themselves to police the thoughts of others, or deny their right to express those thoughts. I am offended by knee-jerk 'political correctness' however well-intentioned it may be. People must be given the freedom to express beliefs which are in poor taste, or which others find offensive.

Freedom...accept no substitute.

"The maxim that society exists only for the well-being and freedom of the individuals composing it does not seem to be in conformity with nature's plans. If classical liberalism spells individualism, Fascism spells government." - Benito Mussolini

Depicting well-known mass murderers is just plain offensive. Whether racist or not, under the broadest sense of the word, this is profanity.

Make that Extremely Offensive.

BlackAdder said: Freedom...accept no substitute.

The Lindens cencoring an image is not an attack on our freedoms.

There is a huge diffrence between the government preventing you from using free speech, and a private property owner choosing what is allowed. Government restrictions on free speech are always very terrible and should be fought tooth an nail. But private property is another matter.

I can not write on the walls of someones house and expect them not to paint over it. It is THEIR property. They have the right to do what they want with it. If I don't like it, I am free to go elsewhere. I am free to step one foot off their property and hold a sign.

In fact, the Lindens are expressing their right to free speech by saying that some images are offensive and not allowed. If they didn't limit what was done on their own servers, it would be us infringing on their free speech rights.

Free speech is important, but so is having the ability to control what happens on your own property.

Points been made a thousand times in this thread that this is Linden's world. The only rights we have are the rights they give us (and of course the right not to play).

Fueltanker, you should be grateful the Lindens even talked to you about it instead of just erasing the content and canceling your account. Compared to many other MMOG's we have it VERY well when it comes to the free speech department.

So, quit complaining, the Lindens MAKE the rules and can CHANGE the rules anytime they want. Just live with it.... Or don't and cancle your account.

But that's not REALLY what this whole thing was about was it?

"It wasnt my intention for people to get offended racially, it was my intention for people to realize the actions of the peacekeepers."

I'm going to call BS on this comment. Let's face it. You felt the Peacekeepers did you an injustice and you wanted attention to your cause. What better way than to put up a picture of the most hated man in all of history. Follow it up with the flamebait of a thread and that's bound to always get attention. Exactly BECAUSE people find Hitler racially offensive!

You call for a mature conversation, but your attention grabbing stunt was inmature to begin with. Good luck on that one....

Here Here Phoenix.....you articulated that splendidly


If the depliction is made to be removed that would be more distrubing than the actual picture. The sign that I had on my dock was dubbed "In bad taste" by customer service but I was not *made* to remove it. Only if someone would complain then it would have to be removed. So does this mean that everytime someone complains that there will be an interigation to the person or subject at hand? When we examine or observe a metaphor do you think that all will agree to the meaning? Or will each individual see it differently? And is that wrong that I am not offended by the picture in question.Why should someone else tell me and try to impose the way I should feel...they cant even when they try. When I first saw it, it actually made me glad that freedom of expression was accepted and choice was given to each of us...to like or dislike, but the expressionist wasnt oppressed for it. Its the same thing on the twin towers...everyone is so careful not wanting to show NY with them anymore because it might "remind" someone of groundzero. Well its real, cant hide it never happened and I will be putting a picture of me out on Liberty Island...yep in front of Manhatten along with the Twins.

So how hard will you let the powers that be tread on you?

Oh brother.

Once again, a petty little whiner is making what happened to him as large as he can so that we're all blinded to the fact that it's nothing more than pouting.

This person attacked people in Jessie. Now most of you know my opinion on "soldiers" who shoot unarmed civilians trying to enjoy the day, but this had nothing to do with that. He flew in, MANY times, and shot innocent people AND people with guns. The people with guns shot him back. This went on for a while. After a while, the people with guns shot him on sight. After another while, he began having trouble getting into the sim without being shot.

After a couple days of getting shot, instead of trying to make peace, he put up signs that accused the people who shot him of being fascists. Doesn’t sound all that productive to me, but that’s what he chose to do. Now he’s upset because it didn’t result in…uh…whatever the hell he meant it to result in. :-/

I don't care what spin you put on it. A sign of Hitler, doing his sieg heil above a label that says “Peacekeepers,” is accusing the Peacekeepers of being like Hitler. Only someone who is disingenuous - or ignorant - would come along and say, "Well, they are a bit similar to Hitler. It's wrong to assume I meant that they were ENTIRELY like Hitler!"

And, on the off chance that he really DID mean something more subtle than "Peacekeepers are murdering fascists!", it is thoroughly wrong to accuse the READER of misunderstanding your message. If you have something difficult to communicate, learn to do it clearly. If you fail to make yourself clear - it is YOUR FAULT. Have I made myself clear?

So, he put up a sign (actually dozens) and people took exception to what he was accusing them of. They continued to shoot him, and appealed to the authorities. I fail to see what was so odd about that. It certainly doesn't make them fascists. It just makes them folks who hate being called Nazis. Go figure.

Perhaps we need to look more closely at the proof-of-age process.

At any rate, there was a discussion in-world where a large group of people have offered to stop shooting him if he stops attacking them first (There's some logic for you!). They also asked that he not put up any of those posters again. He agreed.

I chose to disregard his complaint at the time that he was "being jewed down." I did so because I assumed that a person who defended that remark by declaring that he meant it "as a VERB" and not as a label was just too ignorant to bother. But that was before the whining started, and before he started coloring himself as a champion of American and human rights.

This person needs to grow up and learn to live with other people. If not, then he has to expect censure (look it up) from the people around him.

No one is telling him he can't speak. He just has to learn that there are consequences to his actions. I would simply recommend that he find another topic to waste his time with – this one come with consequences he’s apparently not prepared to defend.

Here's how "free speech" works. If you decide to waste your right to speak by putting a swastika over my name, then I will use MY right to speak to attempt to make you shut up. If that doesn't work, I'll find another way.

So, shut up, grow up, and stop whining when your peers try to educate you. Or, take it somewhere else.

Oh, and thanks for your time and attention. :-)

Yes, let's legislate taste. What a splendid idea!

P.S. I just bought a sign in Tan with Chairman Mao's visage imprinted across the front. If anyone from China feels offended, please let me know and I will delete it from my inventory. Thank you.

I'd just put up a sign with a middle finger, and of course claim I'm just saying he's 'number one'...

Or maybe not...

I'm a fool.

I love threads like this. This is the kinda stuff I get in arguments with my grandmother over. Anything controversial. Abortion, religion, politics, free speech, it's all great fodder. This kind of discourse is needed on a regular basis to keep things going.

The tree of liberty must occasionally be renewed with the blood of patriots.

Welll, that's a little over the top in regards to an internet thread. But it's so cool that an open forum like this exists. Ok, back on topic.

I think I need to refine and explain my position on this. I am not defening the poster. I am not defending Fueltanker. I am saying that the poster was put up within the limits of the rules and is not, in itself, racist. I am also saying that it is well within the Lindens right to remove it or demand that it be removed. This is not censorship as the entirety of SL is their private property that we are allowed to utilize. They don't even need to give a reason for it being removed.

But please, if it's removed, and I'm sure it will, don't blame racism.

Also, is there anyway the Jessie wall could get repaired? It looks like crap in half built sections like that...

If a picture of Hitler is considered racist, then by the same standard, to display pictures of the 25% or so of the US Presidents who maintained slavery in their own households must also be considered racist. How about a pic of Queen Victoria, whose military forces killed millions of Indians and Africans? Ban her too.

This is a repeat of SL History. Groan if you may, this is the Jessie Wall thing all over again. The difference is, it got nipped in the bud this time.

One person put up something that offended another. If it had not been taken down (as in the case of the wall) then another person puts up something to counter it. Then one or the other gets riled and covers the others images. All the while both sides whining that their rights of free speech were violated. From there it all spirals out of control, tempers flaring, guns blazing and land punting all over. Finally, the Lindens had to come in and take it ALL down, both sides worth.

All they are doing is what would have to be done in the long term, only before all the hurt feelings and banged up reputations.

We all want our rights and say we dont mean to offend but that doesnt mean you arent offending. Because you dont mean to hurt feelings doesnt mean feelings arent hurt.
"I didnt mean to" doesnt erase anything.

I do believe in free speech and the rights of each however this is a community. There is no I in Team. We have to be considerate of others and have empathy. If you must display that sort of image then IMHO it should be done in the same way porn ingame is. INSIDE your build for your personal enjoyment. Because you love it (you meaning anyone) doesnt mean everyone else wants to see it.

Peace.

MJ