Question on the rules I have "violated" Please read.

I will keep this mature and to the point, please be mature in your responses.

Please read all of what I have written before you reply to prevent "flames." I will point out every aspect that I believe to be wrong.

I was informed recently that a certain picture I have been posting in Jessie has and is considered racist. The picture consists of Hitler holding a Swastika. Under it is written "Jessie Home of the Peacekeepers"

I understand the swastika. That is a violation of the rules, that will be fixed. But I was informed by Jeff Linden that even if I removed the swastika from the picture it will violate this rule:
"Profanity OK except for hate speech or hate activity depicted in objects, textures or sounds."taken from
Here Under Local Standards )

I was informed by Jeff Linden that a representation of Hitler(without the swastika) is in violation of this rule. I have saved the conversation I had with him. He clearly states that if the picture was of Hitler with an X on him, that it would be considered in the "grey" area.

I have a quote of Jeff Linden I would like to share with you.
"Jeff Linden: You would have been fine with your picture if you had used a political dictator"

Do I even have to say anything on this?
Hitler established himself as a dictator. Thus he was a "political dictator."

I was told by Jeff Linden it was my opinion to say that a picture of hitler isn't racist. In return the rule does not state that a picture of hitler is racist. So is it his opinion to say that it is?

The reason for putting up the pictures.

While in Jessie(the PVP area) I was shooting people. I shot alot of people. I did not select people out of their certain ties with a group. I shot everyone. It is a player versus player area. I shot members of "Peacekeepers" and in doing this angered them to retaliate. In their actions to retaliate they setup a script which sucks me to the ground and kills me instantly. Let me inform you that they own quite a bit of land in Jessie. Lets just say 90% or more. In doing this they angered me in which it reminded me of a monopoly/communism.

The situation is being settled currently, but I would still like to hear opinions. Please keep the responses mature. If you want to call me names please do it in an Mature area In SecondLife, I will respond Thanks for reading.

I, personally, fail to see how a picture of Hitler is racist in any form. I have history books with pictures of him. Does that mean that my history books are racist? Not at all. Hitler himself was a vile, nasty, detestable human being. Showing a picture of him in no way means that the person putting up the picture supports him. If anything, it's an indicator of how the person feels about the actions of a certain group.

If he had posted a picture of Hitler and added a Burn Jews caption or something, then THAT would be racist. A mear picture is not.

George Bush : None slaughtered
Hitler: over 20 million died trying to stop him (including over 6 million slaughtered under his orders)

Still fail to see the point?

From the description, (which is only vaguely coherent,) it seems like you're effectively calling these peacekeeper's nazis. This isn't racism.... but it IS defamation. Just bear that in mind.

Another thing to bear in mind is that while SL is offically only supported in the US and Canada, I am fairly certain they plan to expand "offically" to other countries. Germany is one of those countries and they have laws regarding Hitler, etc. Could be simple prudence on the part of LL watching the bottom line.

-AP

Well, it may not be racist, but it sure as hell represents racism. I'm a Jew, and my father survived the concentration camps. The purpose of the rule is to prevent anyone from being offended, and I can assure you that it offended me beyond belief. I'm glad you posted this, because if you didn't, I may have made the mistake of befriending you.

Oh, and one more thing... DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED FIGHTING FOR THE U.S.? FIGHING AGAINST THE U.S.?

If I saw a poster of hitler up in sl, anywhere, on any building, with or without captions or swastika, I'd report it as abuse.

You know, there's a reason why hanging up posters of hitler is illegal in germany. That reason is hitler, nazi's and everything that goes with it is vile and repugnant. If heaven and hell is reall, then the whole batch of them deserve the bottom basement of the boiler.

I'd like to know the reason for putting it up. What were you saying? What was your message with a poster of hitler? And yes, that's pertinent, because, you chose to put it up, you got an image, cropped it, uploaded it, put the texture on a prim, and then placed it for others to see.

You equate being killed in jessie the same as hitler??? Please. The whole thing is offensive and they were right for telling you to take it down.

He says in his post that the poster is how he sees the Peacekeepers in Jessie. He sees them as being dictators and nazis in that sim. Whether we agree or not is irrelavent. It's how he chose to express his observations. It isn't racist nor is it pro-Nazi. It is anti-Peacekeeper.

That is one of the beautiful thinks of living in this country, I could put up a poster EXACTLY like the one under discussion all over the place and be well within my rights because it *IS NOT RACIST*. Once again, if the caption had mentioned a certain race/religion/etc it could have been taken as such. Instead it targets an amorphous group. He has no idea what race/religion/etc the members of that group are, but he feels they are acting in a certain way. That poster is his way of protesting those actions.

And just to set the record straight, though I doubt anyone will read this since it seems most folks respond after only reading the first line of posts... Hitler was vile. He was the embodiement of all that we see as evil. I would never use his imagery in anything I did short of a histroy disertation. That does not change the fact that his image is a very strong one, and when used properly, can make a strong point.

I may not agree with Fueltanker's opinion, but is his and I will defend his right to have it. If the Lindens do make him take it down, then at least say that it was because it could offend folks, not that it was racist, cause it's not.

That makes no sense.

Would you object to a poster of Stalin?
What about a poster of Roosevelt?
Mao Tse-Tung?
Churchill?

All of them gave orders that resulted in the deaths of millions. Body count is not a good criteria for objecting.

Yay! Free speech. Display any poster you want, IMO, just dont be surprised if you get negged or disliked because of it.

IE, face concequnces.

Wow. Godwin would have a interesting time with THIS thread :)

I've got a pretty hard skin, but seeing people equate Hitler with a group or a person other then the Nazi Party is pretty offensive in my book.



Here Here. That's why it's called the Free Speech amendment. I may not like you, I may not like your ideas, but damn it, you've got a right to say them, and I'll defend that right to the day I die.

To automatically think that my picture I put up is directly related to Hitler's treatment towards the Jewish community before and during World War 2 is ignorant.

Exactly what Phoenix said "It isn't racist nor is it pro-Nazi. It is anti-Peacekeeper." Thank you Phoenix for putting it clearly.

I asked for mature responses Darwin appleby. "I'm glad you posted this, because if you didn't, I may have made the mistake of befriending you." That was a comment you could have kept to yourself. That wasn't very mature.

Jellin Pico there are many reasons why Germany has many laws against the publication of Hitler, Nazis, Swastikas. Of the ones u have listed there is also the thought of they're ashamed. I would be to. It is said you are to learn from your mistakes. If you hide your mistakes do you prevent them from happening again? You failed to see my comparison, and of course I was pertinent in my actions, I never said I wasn't. I made a comparison wether you see it or not, Not an offensive picture to stir up the community

I think its because Hitler is associated with hate crimes. You know Nazis, skin heads, etc.

Just as if I was to put up a poster of a black man being hanged as a bunch of white people standing around below him. I know many would get offended by it. The meer history of it speaking louder than 'free speech'. There is a limit and tolerance to acceptable behavior and what is shown.

There is taste, and there is tasteless.

However, the poster itself isn't really a problem.... (I'm sure it WILL have consequences, such as neg ratings...) But to ban the poster itself is wrong. (Don't MAKE me start quoting Voltaire....)

However, as someone else said... be prepared for people to not like it... and to take action based on that dislike.

Bottom line: Incredibly poor taste. People generally do not like being compared to anti-semetic, racist mass murderers. Mentioning the Peacekeepers on a sign with a picture of Hitler implies that they are like Hitler. Mentioning Jessie on a sign with a picture of Hitler implies that all of Jessie has embraced Hitler. Fueltanker, you made lots of potential enemies with that sign.

Jim Lupis Voltaire is also quoted on saying it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.

Actually I was the one that brought up Voltaire..... And while I won't try to stop you from posting such a pic.... I'm sure not going to defend you from people you may defame by posting such a pic.... they'll be pissed off at you, and rightly so. (And will likely do things like neg rate you.)

What 'government' are you referring to here? The Lindens? They're engaging in CYA.... probably a bit overcautious... but that's to be expected. (Corporations tend to be overcautious.)

Correct. People can "disappear" quite easily due to this.

I used to live in Jessie. That was a mistake after getting killed in my own home twice. I moved.

As I stated elsewhere, I may not agree with your views, but I will defend your right to them. This is what free speech is all about.

This is also true. Second life is not a truely "free area". The Lindens expect the residents to act with a reasonable set of restrictions. Putting up a picture that a lot of people see as a figure of pure evil can be construed as quite offensive.

They also have a business to run. They are here to make money. Hence, most corporations will act to eliminate risks to that ideal.

Fueltanker, you are royally ignorant. I know your expressing your freedom of speech, and I know you aren't SUPPORTING nazis or nazi views, but do you have ANY idea what bad taste this is? There are people like me, who's parents expereinced FIRST HAND the concentration camps. My father almost starved to death, and now you can put that up as a joke and call me immature for correcting you. There's something wrong there.

If this place was funded with public tax money, I would defend your right to have a such a poster, despite the fact it is in extremely poor taste. Its not publicly funded, however. It is owned by a private corporation and they get to set the rules. That is their right of private ownership and is equally important.

As an aside, I would like to mention that although I would defend your right to put such an image up, I would also give you a negative rating for being a dingleberry



I agree it is repugnant. However, I disagree in censorship of any form wahtsoever because censorship is even more repugnant. Of course, when I say that I refer to public law and not private privilidge.

As for portraits of past American leaders who commited atrocities, one needs to look no further than the 20 dollar bill

But thats another story altogether

-AP

Okay, it's time for another sanctimonious post by Bhodi... but if ever one were needed!

First, some personal background through which you can filter what I say:
- My great-grandmother's picture hangs in the Holocaust museum. I have never seen it, never having had any desire to visit the place, but there is hangs none the less. Braver progeny than I have shown me photos of the photo.
- I have a Great Aunt Kay who went looking for her family after being released from a concentation camp during Liberation. She never found her parents, but she did find a lampshade made of skin with her father's ID number on it. She bought it for $12,000.00 US in the late seventies. This lamp burned in an empty room in her house until she died. When she died, we buried it. But it still shows up not only in my dreams, but in the dreams of every family member I know.
- In Jr. High, a "high-spirited" young man, as the principal called him, covered my locker in pictures of Hitler. He made a similar argument - "This is't racist, it's a policital statement" - and the pictures STAYED. I - a young Jewish girl - had to get my books out of a locker covered in images that endorsed my own death.
SO, I'M PRETTY BIASED...

That said, take the pictures down and don't put them back up again. Want to make an anti-whatever statement? Create an image that says what you mean, not one freighted with other meanings. To equate the Peacekeepers with Hitler is just assinine. The Peacekeepers at worst "pester' virtual persons in a false world. They don't starve, then torture, then kill real people.

And, yes, I'd object if you posted pictures of Amin, Milosovich (sp?) or Stalin. I'd object, and do object, if you support genocide in the Congo or in Palestine.

We are none of us so naive as to believe you posted pictures of Hitler without knowing they'd be hurtful to many of the Jews in SL. And we are tired of being made to feel defensive for objecting to such images. Take them down. Leave us alone. Find a new way to say what you have to say or expect no one to hear you over the din of your chosen mascot's attrocities.

Bhodi, I feel I need to point out a couple of things here. The posters on your locker, in my mind, would have warranted a law-suit. For a number of reasons.

1. You were REQUIRED to be at school and as such, had no choice but to be exposed to them.
   
2. The Locker contained your personal belongings and as such, you have a certain level of control over the area. The school should have respected your wishes.
   
3. Schools are government institutions and as such, are not exactly covered by the Freedom of Speech issue. Posters on school grounds can be treated EXACTLY like posters on the White House... They should have come down.
   
4. The images of Hitler were chosen BECAUSE you are jewish. That in itself is anti-semetism and legally wrong.
   

Basically, the school *really* screwed the pooch on that one and should have ended up in court.

The Jessie issue is different in many ways.

1. It is a public area, nothing is making you view the image.
   
2. The image was chosen because it was a strong image, not because the Peacekeepersa are Jews. Hell, they may all be midget, mulato athiests from another planet for all he knows.
   
3. I find it amazingly hard to believe that he had ANY intention of pissing off anybody other than the Peacekeepers.
   

I agree, it was in very poor taste. I also agree that the Lindens can yank it. It's their world, their rules. But if they do yank it, don't use the excuse it was racist. Be honest and acknowledge the age old tactic of CYOA(Cover Your Own Ass).