Officer Resigns? LL employeees

7. INTERRUPTION OF OR CHANGES TO SERVICE

7.1 Termination. Linden has the right at any time for any reason or
no reason to suspend or terminate your Account, terminate this
Agreement, and/or refuse any and all current or future use of the
Service without notice to you. Upon request from Linden, you agree to
delete any electronic or printed copies of information or software
programs that you received from Linden.

7.2 Interruption. Linden reserves the right to interrupt the Service
with or without prior notice for any reason or no reason. You agree
that Linden will not be liable for any interruption of the Service,
delay or failure to perform.


------------------------
7.2 nice real nice.

I think I already said I have no problems with the policy but I do wish the lindens could play the game as a regular player too.

JV

What is the point of this post? It clearly says Linden, not a linden, Linden is short for Linden Labs, they are saying the company can interrupt service, not an individual linden.

JV

thats a fine line, if you are publishing your info in one profile (which I actually do) then by default you may have lost your privacy for that piece of info. I would like a linden ruling on this, but your privacy protection is for yourself not just 1 av, i think they consider any avs you have to be the same and if you disclose one publicly then its public info. But that is just how i would read into it and I may be wrong.

JV

The point of that post was; I can be terminated for any reason or NO reason. Posting something to the boards is NO reason to terminate me. For Example.

Its just one of many things that can be used to the advantage of LL's. Here is another example;

I tick a alt linden off. As a Linden, he/she is pissed off and;
under 7.2 I get banned, for NO reason.

Cath

Don't you see the difference?

"JoeGunPunk griefed me last night!"

"Oh, JoeGunPunk is actually JimHatesGun's alt."

That's one thing.

"JoeGunPunk griefed me last night!"

"I heard JoeGunPunk is the alt of a linden!"

"Lindens! Who is JoeGunPunk?! Tell me now!"

That's something a bit different.

Besides, there is one other issue here.

The *minute* the lindens say, "Bob Somebody is a linden", "Bob Somebody" ceases to be able to actually play the game as a player. The same is true if *anyone* reveals, publicly, a linden's alt. It's not like people are going to digest the knowledge, nod their heads, and say "Ok, that's cool. No biggy."

That's not what would happen.

Lets look at just some of the possible, and indeed probable, outcomes:

Certain people will try to either 'grief' the lindens (By refusing to sell land to them, banning their AVs from their land just for the hell of it, etc), or try to curry favor with the lindens by giving them everything free/really cheap.

Playing 'torment the linden' will become a popular new sport for a certain subset of the griefer community... *massive pushgun* "haha, i shot a linden 5 sims over, i rock!".

Any time there is no 'real' linden online, people are going to type 'Bob Somebody" into the finder to see if he's online. Maybe even if there are lindens online. I know people who's regular tactic to get help is to IM the same request to every linden online.

They will be a public curiosity at any meeting... "Oh, hey mr Linden, I mean, Bob... Hear anything about 1.4 yet?". Regardless of them not being *able* to tell them anything, contractualy, they will still be bugged about it.

Those are just some examples.

So, result? Either the player behind Bob Somebody stops actually playing the game, probably, out of frustration, or he gets a new AV, throwing away one he may very well have grown quite attached to, and starts the process over again.

And remember, they don't even have to honestly grief to get people to call them a griefer. I've been called a griefer before, when lag made me run into somebody (or worse yet, drive into somebody, when testing a vehical... Or the even worse yet, have a vehical that behaves so unexpectedly I have basicly no control over who I ram, it's happened before). I've had friends get called griefers *for even having a weapon attached to their AV* in a public place (Often times the weapon is an unscripted prop for their AV, even). And when your a public figure, this is only worse... even the slightest *hint* of impropriety is blown massivly out of proportion, and a small crowd will line up to list any grievences they have with the person in hopes of finding out if they are a linden or not.

Absolutly Tcoz, I would also like to state that I am NOT saying this is happening, I am saying the foundation is there for it to possibly happen. I think some stringent rules are in order to avoid some of the loop holes me and Tcoz are brining to the table in this discussion.

Cath

Catherine, this is just legalese, standard fare for *any* online service. My ISP contract says it. The fine print for any MMORPG I've played says it.

It's not something unique or insidious to LL.

Nope that was my point in clarifying the difference between LL and a single Linden. You piss a Linden off they will have to discuss it with other Lindens before banning you, higher up Lindens more likely too, who aren't pissed at you.

Also every company always reserves the right to terminate service for any reason, its in just about every contract. Just like restaurants reserve the right to serve who they want (as long as its not discriminatory of course). Its call private business and they can do what they want.

JV

it was just an example of how far things could go against any joe average player. Nothing more. I understand your points and agree that it probably wouldnt happen. How do you know the chain of command reguarding banning?

Cath

Common sense, compounded by a basic understanding of how these games are structures on a buisness level?

If their system was set up so foolishly as to allow the unverified word of any one employee to result in a banning, then they have much deeper problems than a few oddities of wording in the contract, and all hope is lost already.

fair enough

Cath

well reitsuki already basically answered this, but yes common sense and an understanding of business and customer service.

rarely can an employee ever ban, kickout, refuse service to a customer, it always has to go to management. I'd be curious which Lindens are managers though. That would be interesting to know.

JV

I suspect even there you would find that there is a system of checks and balanaces to prevent the whims of one manager having massive weight. I suspect the most any one manager level employee could do probably is a temporary suspension, if that... A full banning probably has to be aproved on multiple levels.

Granted, you could always get a linden who has direct access to the data server irked, I suppose, and have him delete your account... Maybe, I dunno exactly how their data system is set up... But if that happened, I suspect action would be taken A) against said employee and B) to restore the persons account (I'm assuming there are monthly, if not weekly or daily, backups of the data).

Definitely, and with such a small company still, i bet Phillip has final say on all Bannings.

And they do have extensive backups, during beta they would have to restore data a lot when bad things happened.

JV

I'm sorry, but from a business standpoint; it doesn't matter if you're in your Linden AV or if you're in your "GoodieTwoShoes" AV -- you're still employed by LL, you still retain possible customer information (personal and in-game knowledge) -- you're still an employee of LL even in your ALT account.

Thus said, you lose certain "rights" of being able to post on the forums in an alt account. You lose certain "citizen" rights while playing the game in the Alt account.

It's nothing personal against the employees; it's simply business.

If someone is proven to grief in an alt-av, then I'm sure LL handles it at an account level. And would also handle it at an account level for any employee. I have never made the argument that its ok to grief in an alt and then escape unscathed in another av.

My argument is this: If Linden av follows the rules and Linden alt follows the rules, then there's no reason to violate their privacy, no reason to ignore the TOS, no reason to begin a withhunt..



Actually if someone sees any wrongdoing, without knowing what the av does in rl, they can and should report it. The only people who can do anything about a problem like this is LL.




Alleged is the key word here! Just because someone accuses someone of something doesnt make it so. I think a good way to go about proving it, is to first establish who was at the incident, then establish if it was an actionable offense (were bombs dropped, avatars pushed against their will, guns fired, giant penii rezzed), and if its found that the people present were involved in an incident necessitating disciplinary action, THEN, and only then, should any alternative avatars they may have become relevant.

Right now, all I see are baseless accusations leveled against people who were not even at the event thats gotten so much discussion in the past few days.



It should get someone banned, because a) they dont know for certain and can't prove the identity of lindens b) the rules about privacy aren't new or self-serving, everyone agreed to abide by them and should do so.

But saying "Blahblah Altking" griefed me and reporting it is, completely within everyone's power. And is the proper way to handle it. If the complaint is legitimate, then it will result in the employee being disciplined, whether you knew it was an employee or not





Actually, that was never my argument. They are under even stricter obligations both as employees and as alts. If they are adhering to the rules, then leave them be. If they are breaking rules and someone finds out, they should report it.




And if they were, so what? They can put their arguments into the forum and those opinions will stand or be shot down the same as anyone else's. If they have an opinion or make a good point, I want to hear it.

Ok, just re-read that last paragraph and this phrase struck me, "and the people they group with in world" So residents that may be in contact with these alts should also be silenced?

So not only do we need to be vigilant against the "secret lindens" among us (who must adhere to higher standards of conduct and risk their livelihood by even the appearance of wrong doing), but now we should also view with suspicion the "linden collaborators".

And it probably takes no more proof to label someone a collaborator than it is to label someone a linden alt or a griefer.

Like calling someone a "witch" or a "commie", these are accusations which aren't based on actual wrongdoing, but on people's anxiety about what harm could potentially be done.

While it's true the Lindens could wreak havoc in the world, it's also true they can wreak havoc from the server without ever entering the world. But have they done this. No.

Friends of lindens could reap untold riches and rewards from their association, but have they done this? Are the richest people in the world linden collaborators? The ones with the most land? Highest ratings? I can't answer that, not having perfect knowledge of who is a linden and who are their friends. But my guess is no. The richest people, largest land holders and highest rated people got that way through their own efforts. Or at least that's the rumor I choose to believe.

If an alt-av posts or alludes to private information thats a violation., and they are subject to even harsher penalties than if a resident violates the TOS.

The discussion isn't about what happens when an alt-av violates the rules. It's about when they observe them with zeal and dedication.

You seem to assume they are breaking rules and getting away with it. and there is no evidence that that is occuring. And no one is defending the right for alt-avs to break ANY rules.

So if their posts adhere to the standards of the community and do not reference private information like "I know who you are in real life, so your statements are false" or "Dont believe her, you wouldn't believe how many abuse reports she's filed" then what is the harm in them using the forum?

If they can't ever use, reference, mention any knowledge they have gained as an employee, then how does it hurt you and how does it benefit them?

As simply as I can say it, if they break a rule, they are punished. If they play by the rules, then they have NO advantage over you.

What you're suggesting be instituted is what the armed services are doing with "alternative lifestyle" individuals of "Don't tell..."

Gone are the days when this was a free service/free game.

It's now a full-fledged business, with real life money on the line -- for both the company and the end-users.

Sorry, but hiding behind a "don't tell" scenario will not be positive for LL. By saying that something can't be discussed with the he/she said, can't list the facts because it might be in violation of the TOS -- only leads to more suspicion that something did happen.

There will always be innuendo's, there will always be accusations of discrimination, favouritism, etc., unless it's all or nothing with employees.

I'm not thinking or speaking on the individuals who work/play the game; I'm thinking as the whole company. The only way to completely be "above board" in all of their actions -- whether it be in a Linden account or an alternative account is by removing all doubt that *could be* cast.

Speaking as a veteran of many online games, I'll tell you this: I would, any way of the week and twice on sunday, prefer to have customer service reps who *played* the game they served, and had a vested interest in it thriving and doing well, then faceless automotons hired just to nod their head and say "I'll look into it. Thank you."

There is no "don't tell" policy. By all means tell any instances of wrongdoing to the proper authorities. Immediately. I fully support reporting problems to the people that can fix the problem.

Telling your friends about a fire..or telling the fire department about the fire are two ways to handle a potentially harmful situation..but only one of them puts the fire out.

On behalf of lindens everywhere (without consent, approval, or suggestion), consider all the complainers slapped with a trout.

That is all.

Bino,

I have been around since early public beta (this is account # 2), and I did not know either. I found out in advance of the announcement who some of the alt accounts were just in passing from various people, and it doesn't make me uncomfortable, but I did have questions about it too. Lynn is right, there were many very active early beta players who have a comfort level with this because of their experiences with the Lindens- I did not really like SL that much in beta, so I did not really do much outside of building.

Catherine may sometimes ask something in a provocative way that tends to get her flamed by those who don't know her, but I understand her underlying concerns and questions, and I think they are valid.

Do we have a right to know who is what account? No. Do I find the potential for conflict of interest to be there, having seen a lot of things happen over the past year to various people. Yes. Robin's post did a lot to make me feel more comfortable, as they have at least addressed the issue internally. You can flame people all you want for asking about this, but every company should have very strict rules regarding employee behavior - from both a liability standpoint and just for good business sense.

I know a lot of people feel "what's the big deal if X Linden is Y Foo during their off hours. On the surface, nothing. I am glad they enjoy SL and want to play and experience it from a different perspective. However, it is impossible to totally separate what you know as an employee, and that is where the potential for conflict of interest and problems come in. I am sure all Linden employees are well intentioned, but we all know what they say about good intentions. Having strong policies in place is a good thing that is for the benefit of both normal players and employees alike.

Cristiano

I don't think the people who have questions about this issue are complainers. Emplyee behavior of a company is a legitimate concern for customers of that company, as they have access to our personal and financial infomation. I feel much more comfortable with a company that has policies in place, and responds to questions about those policies. It adds to my comfort level as it does to others, and asking about and raising concerns is not complaining. I always find it interesting how often someone who has a differing view will resort to saying someone is whining, complaining, etc.. instead of offering anything constructive whatsoever.

Cristiano

It's perception, Bel.

I'm seeing LL as a complete company -- each individual acting as the company.

You're seeing each of the Linden's as unique individuals.

While it might be called "hint-mongering" -- for other's it could be seen as a perception of favourtism, a perception of having an advantage; a simple perception of getting advanced knowledge, scripting assistance, etc., from their friendly alternate.

Sorry, I support SL and enjoy SL as much as anyone here.

I want them to succeed as much as anyone here.

What I don't want to see in the future with more growth and more liasons is the possible scenario of inappropriate behaviour -- even if it was completely innocent.

The only way for that not to happen is to limit what the employees can and can't do -- possibly to an extreme. Anything other than that, and there will always be perceptions by players of the playing ground not being fair to everyone.

It's happened before in real life, it's happened before in other online games; and I would only hope that LL (especially with monthly awards being USD versus virtual money) be so squeeky clean that no one would be able to "hint" at anything.