robin linden's response to hypocrisy thread

In other words, you are against all of the points on principle, rather than on the merits of the points themselves.

coco

Without being unkind, Coco, what did you think of the postings on this matter by ordinary group member Mulch Ennui ? If you'll check them out via search you'll see the problems with the wrong people trying to lead. I am assuming Mulch isn't an officer ?

(You know, I can't help but get the idea - and this isn't just about you, Cienna, but everybody who has been talking about this - that a lot of people haven't even READ the agenda. They stopped reading at the word "Anshe".)

coco

I gotta tell ya, Ellie, I keep my eyes on the prize. The prize is fairness and equal opportunity for all. It's not whether or not I would have said everything Munch does, or say it the way he does. (I didn't read all of his lengthy posts, either.) It's not about who do I like or who do I not like.

Fairness and equal opportunity for all is the prize for me, and it has been the desirable prize since the day I discovered those were in some ways missing in SL. Munch apparently desires those same things (I haven't made a huge study of him and don't even know him); therefore we are in the same group, working toward the same goals. (I don't know if he's an officer or not.)

coco

The points have no merit, thus there is no reason to discuss whether or not they are possessed of merit.

More succinctly -- You don't ask Hitler to represent the rights of the Jews.

I am almost smiling to consider the knee-jerk 'See! She's talking about the people.' reaction.

I understand completely that you are unable or unwilling to accept that the analogy of asking Hitler to represent Jews is not a reference to the people, but to the mindset OF a group of people who would presume upon the rights of others far enough to assert they have any idea whatever what constitutes the interests and concerns of those around them.... ESPECIALLY when there has been absolutely no effort whatsoever to garner input to that end.... merely a sudden announcement that there is some group of heavily invested customers who think they have more a right to say how things should work here than anyone else.

There is no customer of Linden Labs that is going to better represent me than I will myself.

There is no customer of Linden Labs that is better going to understand or represent Linden Lab's interests than Linden Labs.

Therefore any attempt to do so that does not explicitly solicit and actively, recurrently, and sincerely seek my input is by definition and nature, dishonest, self-serving, and corrupt... and any effort to represent me to Linden Labs or to act upon behalf of Linden Labs without their initiation in requesting so is equally so.

If you still require clarification, let me know.

p.s.:



I read every thread, all the way through, entirely. This habit you have of assuming hurts you much more than it helps you.

Well, I disagree with your point of view.

To me, if I see inequities, I feel it's incumbent on me to do what I can about them.

coco

No, no, Coco, I read it all. Much of it I agree with. Though some I am not so happy with. But for me the details of this group, its agenda, its meetings, are not the significant, lasting point. The important point is that active lobbying is now allowed, even encouraged. Philip says he will meet special interest groups on request. That is lobbying, surely ?

This matters to us all, as the outrage proves, whether you consider its details misplaced or not. People have proved they feel huge concern about lobbying and how it happens. How is it therefore to be fairly and openly conducted from now on? THAT is what matters, and what we should surely be discussing, don't you think ?

Philip's remarks encourage it, but he has clearly not decided yet how his expressed desire for even handedness and open-ness can be best implemented in practice.

How lobbying is to be handled will IMHO contain the seeds of our future representative and consultative assemblies. We should take this seriously.

I continued to read - even after the the statements about how ordinary people wouldn't be fully represented..

.. I wouldn't have blamed anyone for stopping reading there.

It's not the NAME that people are objecting to - its the words outta the mouth... It IS the agenda..

I think people saying 'your just dismissing it because its Anshe or Prok' are being disingenuous .

Siggy.

Yes, I have noted you feel the need to take responsibility for things that you have no control over, and to feel as if you should be able to control things that are not yours to control.

Understanding and accepting that you just don't get to control it all is part of living a happy, well-adjusted, healthy life.

The lesson is much easier to learn here than it is in the real world. Probably will be less painful, too.

I wish you well with outgrowing it.

Sincerely, not snidely, ok?

You're probably correct. We're mostly just relieved that the group has allowed her and Prok to serve as spokespersons. They've already run out of public rope. What confuses me is why they formed a group in the first place. Philip and Robin talk, and listen, to the two of them regularly. After all, they are very major customers in terms of corporate income and resident retention. They didn't have to try to share that lobby with others. If they'd truly wanted to though, surely they would've had enough political sense to lend their support from behind a genuine spokesperson.

Presuming that much intelligence, and I give them both credit for much greater, they set this up to be a public debacle. But what is their goal? It's probably something really simple and straightforward that we're all too mired in the fear of FIC2 to realize.

Not at all, Coco. The point is that they are the most vocal and visible of all the group members. Are you dismissing the comments they made?

Sans.. I cannot speak for Jon here, but if you truely believe the things you are saying, then why the heck are you defending the MJW??

I've gone toe to toe with Jon in the past over a similar issue. Gadz... if there are two people in SL to speak against their friends and say what is on their minds, Jon is one of them. Never would she let someone speak for her. She will probably be beating me soon just for attempting to defend her.

Jon will NEVER blindly follow anyone. EVER. She is amazing and independent. And even when we disagree, I will always adore her for being herself!

So, why follow a group who at their first meeting publicly says it promotes inequality?

Thats like the war for peace and fucking for virginity!

And if your a member of this group, and Mulch is a member of the group.. guess what.. its the same group.


Ya know... try as I might.. I'll just have to admit I don't understand you at all, and just give up.

Please reconsider this. Don't let yourself fall into the trap of advocating any sort of war. I believe this may be what Prok has been agitating for since the beginning, and it'd be a major shame if he were allowed to succeed.

Forming interest groups and lobbying is against SL law?

coco

I don't know, I've been about as vocal as I could be today. And others in the group who don't post much have stated their points of view as well.

coco

I will never outgrow, either in an online environment or in real life, my deep regard for the values of fairness and equal opportunity for all.

I will also never quit fighting for these things and feeling responsible TO fight for them, when necessary, wherever I am.

And I don't feel my efforts will ever be in vain.

And THAT is what this group is about.

coco

Yes, I know you don't get it. It's ok. Really.

You leave me totally at a loss, Coco. How could you have misunderstood me so totally ?

I can respect that as well Pendari. I am not defending the MJW, as I think I may have been kicked out at this point, lol. I am defending the fact that boycotting business people of SL is the wrong thing to do in this situation, no matter what group they belong to. Flipper is part of the MJW group, his service provides ease and stability for countless designers and content creators in SL as well as for the happy customers who use his service. Are you saying that you won't be using Flipper's business services anymore simply because he wants to be involved with developing ethical policies for Second Life in partnership with Linden Labs and with the people concerned enough to work in that area? That's my take on this group--they wanted to work WITH Linden Labs to develop policies that are just and fair for everyone and that protect services like Flippers from what happend to GOM.

I won't be boycotting anyone's business in Second Life, regardless of whichever "side" they've chosen to stand on. The whole issue is already making my second life seem more like Second Hell, and I am considering whether or not I want to come back to SL at all. I will stand behind the group's notecard which detailed an agenda that I supported. I will stand behind the mission statement as it was presented in the group info the last time I logged on. I will also stand behind my words somewhere back around Post #70 in the "hypocrisy" thread. I had a sincere belief this group was going to work INCLUSIVELY and POSITIVELY with Linden Labs to make SL better for everyone, not a state of fiefdom, but one of just and honest leadership from Philip Linden and the rest of the Lindens, many of whom were kind of enough to accept my offers of friendship and requests for bears over the four months I've been haunting this wonderful world. Whether or not the group still exists, those ideals still exist for those of us who are admittedly, "lesser stakeholders", and if a fair and open group is willing to continue with those goals, I'm there, Second Hell or not.

Maybe, Juro, it's like all the blind guys feeling an elephant. One of them touches the tail and declares it a giraffe. And I forget how the rest of it goes. But this may be like that.

I read the agenda and say, "Hey, finally! We might have some fairness in this game."

For a small example, take just Prok and me. We frequently find ourselves on the same side of an issue while disagreeing entirely on quite a number of sub-issues. But those sub-issues and disagreements don't get in my way or his from trying to achieve the major goals we have in mind.

Ditto this group. I don't need to agree with every utterance everyone has made, and I CERTAINLY need not agree or disagree with the utterance as interpreted and paraphrased by someone else.

I don't believe either Anshe or Prok has any more power in the group than any other group member. It's not a matter of people joining the group because they agree with everything Anshe or Prok (or anyone else) says.

The group forms because a disparate group of people all care passionately for the same things. WHY they care for these same things, or their own personal theories about those things, is less relevant to me than that a group exists which is going to try for justice and fairness in SL.

Not only that, there are doubtless a great many people who agree on these major issues. It is only those who disagree who are illogically requiring that anyone in the group answer for anything anyone else in the group ever says. A device to try to send the group into disarray.

The agenda represents the group, and that is ALL that represents the group.

That group agrees on those things. They aren't required to become conjoined twins with each other on all matters, or learn to express things in the same ways. All the group does is work together, as best as individual humans can, to achieve goals they hold in common.

Read the agenda. You will see that which I agree on. That is what the group - so far - has agreed on. And that is why I'm in the group.

coco

You are only an officer in that group to carry Prokofy's bags.

You said, "Active lobbying is now allowed, even encouraged."

Was it ever not? I just naturally assumed there was nothing wrong with it.

coco

Yes, let us. My comments are in red.

AREAS OF CONCERN

o Privacy
o Impartiality of Linden staff
o Transparent law enforcement
o Protection of resident investment
o Independence of media and political groups


DETAILS AND SUGGESTIONS

PRIVACY
o Regulations for access to chat logs
o Who has access?
o Under what circumstances?
o Notification of residents about who viewed their chat logs and for what reason
It's pretty well known that if you want true 'private' discussion - do it outside of any SL channels. I'm very interested to hear what the concern is over this. It seems to be a lot of overhead to satisfy what appears to me to be a non-issue, but again, it would be helpful to have some sort of explanation as to the concern over this. It is also covered in the TOS;

o Invisible Lindens
o Who can use invisible mode?
o Under what circumstances?
o Notification of residents about which Linden used invisible mode in which location and for what purpose
I think the first 3 points would be of interest to folks. The 4th adds overhead in the form of man-hours that could be better utilized elsewhere.

o Linden alts
o Query to Phil: what rules bind the behaviour of Linden alts in their "off-duty" time?
Surely this is of interest to most. My guess is that they are bound by the same rules as everyone else when "off-duty".

IMPARTIALITY OF LINDEN STAFF
o A linden wearing the designated Linden last name is considered to be an official of the company and is not entitled to benefits of residency
Need a more thorough explanation of 'benefits of residency' - what is meant by this?
o Regulations for the use of Linden avatars
I'm pretty sure they already have this. Is the desire to have the Regulations known to the public?
o No using of Linden avatars in resident ad campaigns
Personally, this is petty and so obviously aimed at a single resident, it's laughable. I see no issue in ANYONE using a Linden in an ad campaign.
o No Linden avatars in groups related to resident business, media or political organizations
As Robin explained, it is at times necessary for a Linden to TEMPORARILY join a private group. I don't see a problem in that at all. I'll bet they have rules against a Linden being an active member of a resident group. Non-issue, IMHO.
o No using of Linden accounts to help businesses in ways not available to their competitors


o Linden alts
o No Linden alts in groups related to resident business, media or political organizations
Linden alts are just that: ALTS. The account could have been held long before they worked for LL in some cases. As long as there are guidelines and regulations to keep the alts from abusing the Linden-powers, it should be handled internally, case-by-case. It is a private company and quite frankly none of our business.

o Linden related people
o Regulations for relatives, major investors and otherwise Linden dependent/related people
o Transparency: revelation of the relationship of certain individuals to Linden Lab and their staff
Motive? What is concern and/or motive behind this? It seems to be very heavy-handed and right now, I could in no way support this. Why is this a concern?


TRANSPARENT LAW ENFORCEMENT

o Right to a jury of one's peers, notification of the charges against one, and who has brought suit, right to counsel, right to find facts and present one's defense, public notification of punishments in a long-term archive for precedent-setting value
I like this idea - but am concerned over two things: jury of peers and the overhead it would create on the side of LL. I think that a jury of peers is an excellent idea, but the final decision should come down from LL with a formal suggestion from the jury. LL should have the final say.

PROTECTION OF RESIDENT INVESTMENT

o Recognition of investors and service providers as integral part of the Second Life economy, as much as Linden Lab has already recognized content providers and their rights.
I'd need more information on this before forming a solid opinion. Initially, I would point out that the difference between the product that 'creators' are putting forth is very different than the product that 'investors and service providers' put forth. You cannot steal/replicate/copy land. Although, with the current set of land and group tools, if one were to be unsavory enough, they could rip off an entire group's land - this definately should be fixed to protect the interests of not only the land barons - but all groups who share land.

o Responsible management of L$ sources and sinks by Linden Lab to ensure long term stability of currency value
Agreed - but I think they already do that. They need to be better about communicating it, but an early announcement of upcoming changes to the economy could also cause issues. Good suggestion and definately worth more discussion.

o Management of land as non-consumable investment in Second Life. This means that old regions receive regular upgrades and that land is not subject to technical aging. Land should have somewhat stable value not just in short term but in terms of 5 years or 10 years. The considerable monthly maintenance fees should make that possible.
They already do this, as Ben stated in this thread.

o Clear guidelines and communication concerning possible situations of Linden Lab going into competition to resident businesses.
Needs more discussion - as with the economic changes.

o Process for fair compensation of residents damaged by actions/changes originating from Linden Lab. Adjudication process for claims.
No way. LL will be out of business in less than a year. Read Section 9 and 10 of the TOS. We all agreed to it when we signed up. Further, noone forced any of us to become 'providers' of goods/services/etc. That was our decision and there is/was/will be risk associated with that. The bigger the reward, the bigger the risk.

INDEPENDENCE OF MEDIA AND POLITICAL GROUPS

o No involvement of Lindens, neither as Linden nor as alt, with any resident media or political groups
I can agree with this - but again, there are times as mentioned by Robin where a Linden may neet to temporarily join a group for various reasons.

o No involvement of relatives or close friends of Linden Lab employees either
I don't think this is at all necessary. What is the purpose behind this? What constitutes a 'close friend'? How many phone calls does Anshe have to make to LL before people start crying fowl and calling her a close friend of Philips?

o No financial, technical or marketing support from Linden Lab for any resident media or political group that is not made available on equal basis to other media or political groups
I support equal opportunity to all LL resources. Let's not kill the bennie, let's just make sure everyone has an opportunity at it.

o Linden Lab is of course allowed to run their own media when it is easily recognizable as non-resident media
Oh, how thoughtful.

You're free to buy my things or not, as you wish. It has nothing to do with patriotism or blindly following anyone, and you're speaking out of your ass to say so. Some of us make decisions for ourselves. Maybe you've heard of it.

Anshe very clearly stated that 'they' consider themselves more than us mere consumers because they have more money. I choose not to give Anshe and her ilk any more dellusions of grandeur than they already have. It is my decision, which I made for myself.