robin linden's response to hypocrisy thread
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
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09-01-2005 11:39
just in case you didn't manage to read to post 335 or 359 in the other thread: From: Robin Linden There are some very important points to note from the meeting transcript.
First, a group of residents contacted me and Philip and asked for a meeting to discuss several issues they were concerned with (listed in the notecard). We said sure, we'll be happy to meet with you, and I suggested the recruiting center as a location because of the big table there. It seemed like a good place for a sit down. Beyond that there was nothing symbolic about the choice of location.
Second, please note Philip's response to the requests:
- we'll be more than happy to work with a group of residents to discuss policy, design, or anything else, but the meetings must be open to anyone, and the proceedings and documents must be public. This desire for openness in both the discussion and the participation is why we will not use any NDAs.
- any topic that we discuss should be in the form of a presentation which is itself a well-formed document that has already been passed around within the community, and has therefore been thought through and has received some support.
Rather than worry about a small group of residents gaining an unfair position (i.e. FIC redux), let's think about the potential for engaging in deeper dialog about Second Life, with the caveats in place that I've described. From: Robin Linden To address a couple of points -- I referenced the FIC because of the myth of a favored group of residents who are somehow pulling strings behind the scenes to their own advantage. In the context I brought it up, I was suggesting that rather than worrying that the first mythical group is being replaced by a second, let's focus on how to create better dialog among residents, and between residents and Linden Lab. Philip and I are always happy to meet with groups of residents, to the extent that time allows. Surprisingly, very few ask.  I don't see a meeting of this type replacing the Town Halls because it isn't very effective at reaching a large number of people. The challenge in my view is to find a way to allow everyone in SL to participate in discussions that might directly affect them. It's not the meeting that's important, it's the process for identifying the issues and reaching some concensus on a solution that we should be focused on. |
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
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Just Another Day ---
09-01-2005 11:56
The process will basically remain the same. LL will grow and develop as they must, and will continue to deal with their seed-and-early capital investors. They will devote as much staff time as possible to inWorld issues and getting user input. People with personal access will continue to phone upper management, and upper management will continue to make phone calls in return. Business will get done - sophomoric issues will get just so much attention. At the end of the day, they have investors to deal with and a company to run. So let's all get busy having fun!  
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Oz Spade
ReadsNoPostLongerThanHand
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
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09-01-2005 12:08
Suggestions on better interaction between residents and users: - Reply to Votes on www.secondlife.com/vote . Residents are using this, but LL is not. The only feature we have marked as "done" is a Pony, that's sad to me. Also we only have about 2 that *actualy* have in detail responses that let us know whats going on with the feature, the others either say "Accepted" or nothing at all. So I say either start *using* the vote system setup, or take some input on how to improve it (then actualy reply to the votes after that too). - Answer Hotlines, which LL is doing a pretty good job on (better than Votes), and to keep that up really helps! - Perhaps more Town Halls at the same time, remember when there were 5 Town Halls going? And so smaller amounts of users could meet with one Linden? It seemed to allow more discussion and less one way talking. Perhaps more smaller Town Halls where LL can give out ideas on what they are planning to do, or would like to do, and get input on those would be good. - More Resident held Town Halls. I like the idea of Resident run Town Halls with LL held by several different groups (Not just this "special interest" group). Perhaps put a notice somewhere "Want to talk to LL and discuss a topic that's been on your mind? Contact ____ Linden and setup a meeting with us!". On a seperate note... I'll state this again... if a Linden Hand/Rulebook is published, please publish it in a PUBLIC place, do NOT give it to one resident to distribute (any one resident, I don't care who it is, it's stupid to give to one person if you want it distributed publicly)! Put it in the Library, on the website, and on the forums!
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Ananda Sandgrain
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09-01-2005 12:28
My only real concern here is the suggestion that LL would listen to any particular group under any circumstances. Any opinion collected by Linden Lab should be on the basis that the position expressed is that of an individual. If a thousand individuals want to express the same opinion, or groups want to form to discuss policy, that's fine. But any communications made to LL should only be accepted as representing that particular person. Any claims that someone is representing a whole group, or the sentiments of the community, ought to be disregarded.
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Oz Spade
ReadsNoPostLongerThanHand
Join date: 23 Sep 2003
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09-01-2005 12:51
I agree with you Ananda. And I think LL realizes this as well.
Another thing that could help communication between users<->Lindens:
- Reply to Bug Reports. While time consuming the current automated response doesn't nessisarily encourage confidence. A reply on the status of the bug from a person would be more helpfull. I'm not sure if such a thing exists in LL right now, but perhaps a list for Lindens of bugs and their statuses could be kept for when people ask about them, that Linden could then pull up the list and grab the "official" status of said bug. A human reply lets users know that someone does actualy look at these things.
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Khamon Fate
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09-01-2005 13:08
Merwan is right. Philip and Robin both employ the "let us know when you get something organized and we'll be ready" approach when dealing with radical groups. They know that day will never come. Consider a small group of heavily landed professionals and all of their various methods, differing goals and conflicting needs. How soon are they going to publish an agreed upon list of neatly ordered topics?
Never. They'll meet themselves to death until one or two representatives quit, another couple take over, and one posts a load of bellyaching to the general public. At that point, LL won't have anything to support as an official representation of anyone except the few survivors. It'll then be readily apparent that these few speak for noone but themselves and LL won't be bound to anything.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
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09-01-2005 13:16
From: Ananda Sandgrain My only real concern here is the suggestion that LL would listen to any particular group under any circumstances. Any opinion collected by Linden Lab should be on the basis that the position expressed is that of an individual. If a thousand individuals want to express the same opinion, or groups want to form to discuss policy, that's fine. But any communications made to LL should only be accepted as representing that particular person. Any claims that someone is representing a whole group, or the sentiments of the community, ought to be disregarded. Agree completely, otherwise what we end up with is a political system of lobbyists. LL being open to sitting down with various groups or individuals to hear distilled concerns or points of view is a good thing... so long as it's just information gathering. I don't see much of a conspiracy here. Having said that, Prokofy starting a group to try and get special lobbying access with LL while excluding certain groups (content creators and the press) is sumblimely hilarious... the anti-FIC FIC. It raises hypocrisy to an art form. I think it's great of LL to meet with them though.
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Cocoanut Koala
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09-01-2005 13:42
From: Ananda Sandgrain My only real concern here is the suggestion that LL would listen to any particular group under any circumstances. Any opinion collected by Linden Lab should be on the basis that the position expressed is that of an individual. If a thousand individuals want to express the same opinion, or groups want to form to discuss policy, that's fine. But any communications made to LL should only be accepted as representing that particular person. Any claims that someone is representing a whole group, or the sentiments of the community, ought to be disregarded. I think Lindens should listen to all interest groups. And listening is one thing the Lindens are good at. If everybody in the group wants the Lindens to listen to the propositions of that group, why shouldn't they? Everyone in the group wants those propositions heard. That's sort of like some other organization saying, well, we won't pay any attention to petitions. Everybody has to write their own petition, using different words, and we will only react to them all individually. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
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09-01-2005 13:43
From: Khamon Fate Merwan is right. Philip and Robin both employ the "let us know when you get something organized and we'll be ready" approach when dealing with radical groups. They know that day will never come. Consider a small group of heavily landed professionals and all of their various methods, differing goals and conflicting needs. How soon are they going to publish an agreed upon list of neatly ordered topics?
Never. They'll meet themselves to death until one or two representatives quit, another couple take over, and one posts a load of bellyaching to the general public. At that point, LL won't have anything to support as an official representation of anyone except the few survivors. It'll then be readily apparent that these few speak for noone but themselves and LL won't be bound to anything. Lord. How pessimistic. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
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09-01-2005 13:44
From: Chip Midnight Agree completely, otherwise what we end up with is a political system of lobbyists. LL being open to sitting down with various groups or individuals to hear distilled concerns or points of view is a good thing... so long as it's just information gathering. I don't see much of a conspiracy here.
Having said that, Prokofy starting a group to try and get special lobbying access with LL while excluding certain groups (content creators and the press) is sumblimely hilarious... the anti-FIC FIC. It raises hypocrisy to an art form.
I think it's great of LL to meet with them though. That is not what's going on, Chip. The group represents real concerns, which many people share. coco |
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Cindy Claveau
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09-01-2005 13:46
From: Cocoanut Koala Lord. How pessimistic.
coco And yet, realistic. |
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April Firefly
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09-01-2005 13:48
From: Cocoanut Koala That is not what's going on, Chip. The group represents real concerns, which many people share.
coco But when some people said the Lindens were listening to the FIC more than other people, I thought this was bad. What is the difference between this group and the FIC?
A proud member of PIC = Pudding Inner Core
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From: Billybob Goodliffe the truth is overrated  From: Argent Stonecutter The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better? Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
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Nolan Nash
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09-01-2005 14:08
From: Cocoanut Koala I think Lindens should listen to all interest groups. And listening is one thing the Lindens are good at.
If everybody in the group wants the Lindens to listen to the propositions of that group, why shouldn't they? Everyone in the group wants those propositions heard.
That's sort of like some other organization saying, well, we won't pay any attention to petitions. Everybody has to write their own petition, using different words, and we will only react to them all individually.
coco Yeah, when they meet with your group, they're "good at" listening. When they don't answer your demands for explanations or to remove all trace of Aimee from the website, they are terrible listeners.
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Ananda Sandgrain
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09-01-2005 14:13
From: Cocoanut Koala I think Lindens should listen to all interest groups. And listening is one thing the Lindens are good at.
If everybody in the group wants the Lindens to listen to the propositions of that group, why shouldn't they? Everyone in the group wants those propositions heard.
That's sort of like some other organization saying, well, we won't pay any attention to petitions. Everybody has to write their own petition, using different words, and we will only react to them all individually.
coco First of all I have never been a part of a group where everyone's position is fairly represented by the leader. And as for your suggestion that everyone write their own petition, this is exactly what should happen! Take responsibility for voicing your own opinion to the Lindens! Any other approach is subject to group favoritism and bullying, which it is clear from the transcript is already a problem. |
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StoneSelf Karuna
His Grace
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
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09-01-2005 14:37
From: Cocoanut Koala Lord. How pessimistic.
coco From: Anshe Chung The Metaverse Justice Watch is nothing more than a few concerned people getting together to lobby for issues such as justice and security for residents. From: mjw notecard o This makes us stakeholders. We are not merely tourists, users, consumers, players or customers. We live our second lifes here, and for some of us many aspects of our first lifes are dependent on our second lifes now. From: meeting log Anshe Chung: Whereas need to note that we are very much based on people who consider themselves stakeholder in SL
Anshe Chung: So we are less representative of the "casual player" which of course we also meet in this world From: porky's log We're people with a major stake in SL. Look at the officers' list as you see most of the people who pay most of the tier in SL, and therefore pay a sizeable chunk of Linden Lab's revenue, including salaries.
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Stakeholders means those who are in the land and service businesses and some ordinary players who are even new to the game to have the same likeminded sense of purpose about *justice*.
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I personally am for not having the major content-creators in this group UNLESS they can agree [with my world view] log at: http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/From: cocoanut or you disagree on any level, then just don't join the group. |
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
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09-01-2005 15:08
From: Cocoanut Koala That is not what's going on, Chip. The group represents real concerns, which many people share.
coco |
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Nolan Nash
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09-01-2005 15:14
From: Juro Kothari That probably would've been taken much more seriously, Coco, had the exclusionary comments not been made by Prokofy and Anshe. In doing so, the leaders of this group, have made it very, very clear that the intent is to provide a direct line to LL for 'major stakeholders' and not anyone else (ie. content creators). It's actually the best thing that could have happened. I have come full circle in a sense. At first I was highly irritated, now I am chuckling, and this phrase keeps going through my head... something about... enough... rope... hang... selves...
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Jonquille Noir
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09-01-2005 15:36
I have no problem with people presenting their thoughts, opinions and suggestions to LL. Quite the opposite. I feel the willingness of LL to listen to its consumers is one of the things that sets it apart from other companies. I am not going to fault Philip, Robin or Pathfinder for sitting down with consumers and listening to what they have to say.
I'm also not worried about who the group's officers are. (In fact, I find that bit a delicious bit of humor.) If anything, it illustrates Anshe's point that they don't really represent the 'common man.' There will be no confusion on Robin or Philip's part that those officers represent any of us peons, because we disagree with most of them on a regular basis and laugh at them even more often.
I trust LL to keep on making their decisions the way they always have, regardless of how self-righteously opposing viewpoints or demands are presented to them by a small group of self-interested residents who feel their fat dollars should give them more say than anyone else.
The day LL bows to special interest groups is the day I'll leave SL without a backward glance. There is enough sucking-up to money in the real world without my wanting to see it invade a virtual world as well. That's not my world, or my imagination. I will speak with my wallet, since that's what LL will have declared is King.
In the meantime, I will speak with my $Lindens, by not purchasing anything from those group officers. Since they feel that money is entitlement, I will make sure I personally don't hand them more of it.
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
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09-01-2005 16:08
From: Cocoanut Koala Lord. How pessimistic.
coco Yeah - business is about hard work, being responsible, competent and making difficult discussions... Most of the time that isn't very sexy!
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Cocoanut Koala
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09-01-2005 16:14
From: Nolan Nash Yeah, when they meet with your group, they're "good at" listening. When they don't answer your demands for explanations or to remove all trace of Aimee from the website, they are terrible listeners. Incorrect. A figment of your imagination. Something you just flat out made up. For what reason? I don't know. I have ALWAYS, and CONSISTENTLY, said to any and all who would listen that the strength of the Lindens is that they DO listen. That they have in world meetings. That they are formidably, incredibly, amazingly, accessible. Most recently: I told Cienna - who was convinced they would naturally never deign to answer my questions about the developers directory - that they would. They haven't, as yet, but I will ask them again and yes, I DO expect they will answer them. I will repose them on the Hotline once all the things happening now, what with GOM and all, die down. I absolutely have full confidence that they will get around to answering my questions, just as they would any member. I reject Cienna's assertion that they view me as she does - some kind of sub-species that doesn't deserve communication, albeit I pay my subscriptions just as she does. Also most recently: When I gave my opinion on the GOM thing (I think it was in Philip's thread), I started by stating my unwavering gratitude that they do listen and they are accessible. I have said that since the day I got here, and continue to say it, to everyone, including TSO members. If you have ever functioned under EA, and I believe you have, Nolan, then you can instantly understand why I have always been so grateful for this. So do not presume to state for me what I feel about whether the Lindens do or do not listen, when everyone knows that is always the trait of theirs which I praise at many, many opportunities, and will continue to do so. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
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09-01-2005 16:15
Besides discussing personalities, such as who some of you enjoy laughing at and the like, why not take a look at the points of the agenda of the group?
Consider those. Discuss those. Say whether or not you are against those.
coco
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Cocoanut Koala
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09-01-2005 16:17
From: Juro Kothari That probably would've been taken much more seriously, Coco, had the exclusionary comments not been made by Prokofy and Anshe. In doing so, the leaders of this group, have made it very, very clear that the intent is to provide a direct line to LL for 'major stakeholders' and not anyone else (ie. content creators). Are you suggesting that those two are the ONLY leaders of this group? That other officers can't be leaders also? That members can't be leaders also? coco By the way, Jonquille, I have several times described myself and the likes of myself as "just us peons," also. How is it that I am not an ordinary player? (Along with other members of the group.) You can say that Anshe's thoughts don't count because she owns a lot of land. How does that apply to me? It is a mistake to look at the group and see only two names when there are in fact many more, and each of us is a real person, and regular people, too. |
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Ellie Edo
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09-01-2005 16:21
Yes, Coco, I too think they listen. Not always agree, of course. or act, but they do listen. They must because, try how they may, in the nature of things, they cannot see SL through our (multiplicity of) eyes. It is precisely because they do listen that this newly-blessed lobbying opportunity which Prok/Anshe have exposed to view must be taken very seriously by the rest of us too. It needs rules. It needs fairness of access. It needs a certain level (not perhaps complete) of transparency. /120/35/59942/1.html |
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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
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09-01-2005 16:23
From: Cocoanut Koala Besides discussing personalities, such as who some of you enjoy laughing at and the like, why not take a look at the points of the agenda of the group?
Consider those. Discuss those. Say whether or not you are against those.
coco Sure thing. I'm completely, permanently, and utterly against any political lobby within the product known as 'Second Life'. By nature and definition, a lobby is exclusionary and imbued with an agenda that is seperatist and divisive. In order to be 'for' something, one must be 'against' another and within the boundaries of this metaverse, that would cancerous. More atrocities have been committed in the name of 'justice' and 'protecting others' than I care to list. The road to hell is paved... etc. All the above set forth without any care, interest, or acknowledgement of the people involved. It is a bad idea. It sets a bad precedent. It is short-sighted to an extreme. It is bad business. It will not end well. I think it impossible to be any clearer of my opinion.
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Sansarya Caligari
BLEH!
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09-01-2005 16:23
From: Jonquille Noir I have no problem with people presenting their thoughts, opinions and suggestions to LL. Quite the opposite. I feel the willingness of LL to listen to its consumers is one of the things that sets it apart from other companies. I am not going to fault Philip, Robin or Pathfinder for sitting down with consumers and listening to what they have to say.
I'm also not worried about who the group's officers are. (In fact, I find that bit a delicious bit of humor.) If anything, it illustrates Anshe's point that they don't really represent the 'common man.' There will be no confusion on Robin or Philip's part that those officers represent any of us peons, because we disagree with most of them on a regular basis and laugh at them even more often.
I trust LL to keep on making their decisions the way they always have, regardless of how self-righteously opposing viewpoints or demands are presented to them by a small group of self-interested residents who feel their fat dollars should give them more say than anyone else.
The day LL bows to special interest groups is the day I'll leave SL without a backward glance. There is enough sucking-up to money in the real world without my wanting to see it invade a virtual world as well. That's not my world, or my imagination. I will speak with my wallet, since that's what LL will have declared is King.
In the meantime, I will speak with my $Lindens, by not purchasing anything from those group officers. Since they feel that money is entitlement, I will make sure I personally don't hand them more of it. I'm so sad to hear you say that  I own so many of your gorgeous clothes, buy them both in world and in SLBoutique. I really hope this doesn't turn into a war over who can buy what from whom, when and for whatever reason. I will continue to be one of your satisfied customers, tho it almost feels a little like shopping at Walmart now that I realize "patriotism" in SL means blindly following the masses into whatever war their leaders decide to rhetoric them into waging. |
