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Racism only if your caucasian?

Tito Gomez
Mi Vida Loca
Join date: 1 Aug 2004
Posts: 921
12-06-2004 09:23
From: someone
"pride" in my Italian heritage


Paolo, but even within Italy, there is extreme prejudice and you could even say racism from the Northern Italians (blonde hair, blue eyed, light skin) to the Southern Italians (dark hair, dark eyes, dark skinned). Don't take my word for it, this is what my many native Italian friends have told me. Look it up.

From: someone
Could we just as easily spout off a list of its successes?


The 'successes' you speak about are all material things. If you take the pyramids for example, they were built through slavery, at the expense of numerous human lives. Is that something to be proud about?

Pessimistically yours,

- T -
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Jonny Dusk
The ArtIst of War
Join date: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 477
12-06-2004 09:36
From: MrsJakal Suavage
In reply to Cris's post...

I see your point of view and all statements are correct. However, There is now BET, there are all shows on every Major Channel ABC, NBC and CBS that have all African American Cast. There is African American News Anchors, Talk show host and lets not forget the first ever crowned African American Miss America was Vanessa Williams in 1983. There is the Ebony Awards. African Americans dominate the music industry. We have African American politicians in all levels. The list goes on and on. America has come along way since the days of slavery. The question I have is this...when will they stop using their ancestors misfortune as an excuse everytime they get treated unfairly? This Generation didn't have slaves....when are they going to stop treating us like we are the ones that did it to them? (isn't that racism in some way?).

Agreed this is a sensative subject. I'm sorry if I sound unsympathetic, this is not the case. I love all races. I just can't stand whiners.

Huggerz,
MJ

Again hun, totally see where your going, mostly correct. The problem here is we must analyze the problem a little more in depth. Easy to say how rediculous this is without an educated understanding of what's going on.

Rasism is ingrained into American society. Our language and culture has made it such.

Define the word "Black":

2 a : having dark skin, hair, and eyes : SWARTHY <the black Irish> b (1) often capitalized : of or relating to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin <black Americans> (2) : of or relating to the Afro-American people or their culture <black literature> <a black college> <black pride> <black studies> (3) : typical or representative of the most readily attended parts of black culture <tried to play blacker jazz>

4 : DIRTY, SOILED <hands black with grime>

6 a : thoroughly sinister or evil : WICKED <a black deed> b : indicative of condemnation or discredit <got a black mark for being late>

7 : connected with or invoking the supernatural and especially the devil <black magic>

8 a : very sad, gloomy, or calamitous <black despair> b : marked by the occurrence of disaster <black Friday>

9 : characterized by hostility or angry discontent : SULLEN <black resentment filled his heart>

Now define the word "White":

2 a : being a member of a group or race characterized by light pigmentation of the skin b : of, relating to, characteristic of, or consisting of white people or their culture c [from the former stereotypical association of good character with northern European descent] : marked by upright fairness <that's mighty white of you>

3 : free from spot or blemish: as a (1) : free from moral impurity : INNOCENT (2) : marked by the wearing of white by the woman as a symbol of purity <a white wedding> b : unmarked by writing or printing c : not intended to cause harm <a white lie> <white magic> d : FAVORABLE, FORTUNATE <one of the white days of his life -- Sir Walter Scott>

I believe us educated people can see the contrast hear. Even Websters has attempted to down tone this by currently excluding the word "Caucasian" from the definition of the word "white".

Now if one new nothing of humanity and given a book and told read this and you'll have some understand the language used by these people, would on conceivably come to the conclusion that if I pointed and said "There is a Black man", that this individual has/is "dark skin and pigmentation", "dirty", "thouroughly sinister or evil", "sad and gloomy", "hostile or angry", and oh yeah and, "of or relating to the Afro-American people or their culture"!!!
"There is a White man": "free from moral impurity", "Innocent", "Favorable", and lest we forget, "being a member of a group or race characterized by light pigmentation of the skin b : of, relating to, characteristic of, or consisting of white people or their culture c [from the former stereotypical association of good character with northern European descent] : marked by upright fairness <that's mighty white of you>"
Sorry, "That's mighty white of you" is absolutely killing me!!!! literally too.

As mentioned we've come a long way since slavery but if one were to think it's equal, one would be very saddly mistaken!!!

My friend MrsJakal Suavage, I do not need to use my "ancestors misfortune as an excuse everytime they get treated unfairly?" My ancestors weren't denied a job cause of skin color, actually probably they did but for this point not relavent, I was!!!

Our American media and entertainment are use to proplgate this matter further.
Name some of the most famous bad guys, my favorite Darth Vader. All black, eppitomy of evil, even had to get a Black man's voice. Name your good guys....
Bird of peace -vs- bird of death
Even the Lion King. Everyone has these Afrocantric names but.. Ummm. The bad guy.. his name is Scar!!! Had to make him identifiable with evil and oh yeah let's add a BLACK mane as the finishing touch so we can totally immerse him in his roll as the "bad guy"
Now my anscestors have absolutely nothing to do with this but I have to explain these things to my 2 sons. And I don't "treat" anyone other than the way I would like to be treated.

So, putting the slavery past aside would you care to assist me in explaining to 2 young Black men the reason they must work harder, faster, smarter and still may not recieve the same treatment and benifits as others simply because they were born, and thier parents are black, and thier skin is dark and society will respond to them differently then thier peers who may happen to be white?
Jauani Wu
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12-06-2004 09:47
From: Jonny Dusk
I believe us educated people can see the contrast hear. Even Websters has attempted to down tone this by currently excluding the word "Caucasian" from the definition of the word "white".

there reason is that the association of "caucasian" and "white people" is incorrect in its traditional "scientific" meaning. this association only has currency in north american slang

caucasian
From: someone
Cau·ca·sian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kô-kzhn, -kzhn)
adj.
Anthropology. Of or being a major human racial classification traditionally distinguished by physical characteristics such as very light to brown skin pigmentation and straight to wavy or curly hair, and including peoples indigenous to Europe, northern Africa, western Asia, and India. No longer in scientific use.

usage notes under race:
From: someone
(Caucasian does retain a certain currency in American English, but it is used almost exclusively to mean “white” or “European” rather than “belonging to the Caucasian race,” a group that includes a variety of peoples generally categorized as nonwhite.)
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Olympia Rebus
Muse of Chaos
Join date: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,831
12-06-2004 09:50
From: Rose Karuna
Native American People, Native African People, Native South American People all shaped their lives to fit the environments. Shelter, food, clothing were all designed to work within the constraints of their "earth". They understood their environment to the extent that they were imersed within it.

Caucasian People have shaped the environment to fit their lives. This approach appears to have been far more productive and successful in the short term though the jury is still out on how successful living like this is for the long term.


This site questions the notion that Caucs are the only ones who abuse the environment.
...The myth typically deals with the distant past, and tells of a people in complete balance and harmony with the environment and each other, who took only what they needed and gave everything back. This was a civilization of peace-land-nature lovers who detested war.

A necessary component of the Beautiful People myth is the THEM - the evil intruders who brought disease, war, or some other kind of change and led to the extinction, more or less, of the Beautiful People. Some variants of the Myth - such as that held by, or at least expounded by, our political, social, and religion leaders - bring the Beautiful People into the modern age - often immediately preceding our current state of society. Of course, from what we know about history, there never were a Beautiful People, ever. ..


I might add that I've have read that a difference between traditonal "western vs. non-western" thought is that "western" culture tends to try to capture/control/manipulate the envirnment as oppossed to working with it. This may be an oversimplification, but I find it interesting.

From: Rose Karuna

I have to ask the question, which culture, throughout history, has not been guilty of warring against their neighbors? Which culture has not at one time or another been guilty of horrendous atrocities against their fellow man?


Good point.
From: Rose Karuna

... beautiful stories, pictures, songs and languages that have been lost. Gone forever...


Homo Sapiens has probably been destroying cultures since they figured out how to throw rocks (Not that this makes it "ok", of course.). If the extent of all the lost traditions, mythologies, music, craftmanship and inginuiety of the world's extint cultures were known, people would be horrified at the extent of what has been lost.
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Blake Rockwell
Fun Businesses
Join date: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,606
12-06-2004 09:57
I think the dictionary is defining race and color seperately within all meanings of the word "color"...as far as working harder..I myself work as a contractor with less benefits than those of of a darker color skin pigment. I was not blessed with having the opportunity to work directly with the company..I am in the position where I have no holiday pay and less pay and benefits..should I blame the darker people for that? I think not.
The simple fact is..this company that has contracted my companys services used to have their own Security Dept. but the Greedy CEO's do not want to pay benefits and we see that all over the country with downsizing and outsourcing..not only is the African American suffering..so are Caucasions..the greedy CEO has no concience of color..he only has an agenda for his yearly bonus..weather he be bluntly Black or White. Not everyone is created equal..nor will they ever be. I could complain about it..what good will it do when there are no employee rights in the State of Virginia? Has nothing to do with color..because I am White.

It's who you know alot of the times..not what you know. If I was Black and knew Snoop Dog..I would probably have a better chance of success in some form or another. If he doesn't know you..you think he's gonna take out his time to talk to you about your talent even though you are black. I doubt it.
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Talen Morgan
Amused
Join date: 2 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
12-06-2004 10:01
From: Jonny Dusk
Again hun, totally see where your going, mostly correct. The problem here is we must analyze the problem a little more in depth. Easy to say how rediculous this is without an educated understanding of what's going on.

Rasism is ingrained into American society. Our language and culture has made it such.
Racism is not unique to America and our culture is that of the world seeing as our ancestors came from every country.

From: someone
Define the word "Black":

2 a : having dark skin, hair, and eyes : SWARTHY <the black Irish> b (1) often capitalized : of or relating to any of various population groups having dark pigmentation of the skin <black Americans> (2) : of or relating to the Afro-American people or their culture <black literature> <a black college> <black pride> <black studies> (3) : typical or representative of the most readily attended parts of black culture <tried to play blacker jazz>

4 : DIRTY, SOILED <hands black with grime>

6 a : thoroughly sinister or evil : WICKED <a black deed> b : indicative of condemnation or discredit <got a black mark for being late>

7 : connected with or invoking the supernatural and especially the devil <black magic>

8 a : very sad, gloomy, or calamitous <black despair> b : marked by the occurrence of disaster <black Friday>

9 : characterized by hostility or angry discontent : SULLEN <black resentment filled his heart>

Now define the word "White":

2 a : being a member of a group or race characterized by light pigmentation of the skin b : of, relating to, characteristic of, or consisting of white people or their culture c [from the former stereotypical association of good character with northern European descent] : marked by upright fairness <that's mighty white of you>

3 : free from spot or blemish: as a (1) : free from moral impurity : INNOCENT (2) : marked by the wearing of white by the woman as a symbol of purity <a white wedding> b : unmarked by writing or printing c : not intended to cause harm <a white lie> <white magic> d : FAVORABLE, FORTUNATE <one of the white days of his life -- Sir Walter Scott>


Definition of black:the quality or state of the achromatic color of least lightness (bearing the least resemblance to white)

Definition of white: The quality or state of the achromatic color of most lightness( bearing the least resemblance to black)

From: someone
I believe us educated people can see the contrast hear. Even Websters has attempted to down tone this by currently excluding the word "Caucasian" from the definition of the word "white".

Now if one new nothing of humanity and given a book and told read this and you'll have some understand the language used by these people, would on conceivably come to the conclusion that if I pointed and said "There is a Black man", that this individual has/is "dark skin and pigmentation", "dirty", "thouroughly sinister or evil", "sad and gloomy", "hostile or angry", and oh yeah and, "of or relating to the Afro-American people or their culture"!!!


Please....I assume this book will be foot noted with the dfinitions you have provided?
From: someone

"There is a White man": "free from moral impurity", "Innocent", "Favorable", and lest we forget, "being a member of a group or race characterized by light pigmentation of the skin b : of, relating to, characteristic of, or consisting of white people or their culture c [from the former stereotypical association of good character with northern European descent] : marked by upright fairness <that's mighty white of you>"
Sorry, "That's mighty white of you" is absolutely killing me!!!! literally too.


again you assume the person who knows nothing of humanity is a total idiot devoid of a brain and reasoning capabilitites.

From: someone
As mentioned we've come a long way since slavery but if one were to think it's equal, one would be very saddly mistaken!!!


How is it unequal...what advantages aren't available?


From: someone
Our American media and entertainment are use to proplgate this matter further.
Name some of the most famous bad guys, my favorite Darth Vader. All black, eppitomy of evil, even had to get a Black man's voice. Name your good guys....
Bird of peace -vs- bird of death
Even the Lion King. Everyone has these Afrocantric names but.. Ummm. The bad guy.. his name is Scar!!! Had to make him identifiable with evil and oh yeah let's add a BLACK mane as the finishing touch so we can totally immerse him in his roll as the "bad guy"
Now my anscestors have absolutely nothing to do with this but I have to explain these things to my 2 sons. And I don't "treat" anyone other than the way I would like to be treated.


Perhaps you should sue disney ....otherwise this line of thought is so insane its laughable.

From: someone

So, putting the slavery past aside would you care to assist me in explaining to 2 young Black men the reason they must work harder, faster, smarter and still may not recieve the same treatment and benifits as others simply because they were born, and thier parents are black, and thier skin is dark and society will respond to them differently then thier peers who may happen to be white?


If you are teaching your children everything you've just written then aren't you setting them up with prejudice towards society?
Blake Rockwell
Fun Businesses
Join date: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,606
12-06-2004 10:14
The simple fact is over and above someones agenda of the bottom line..there are always gonna be some that look at others with preference and stereotype. There are Jobs that I've applied for that prefered females over males and guess what? I didn't get the Job..a female did. Not even qualifications matter in some circumstances even gender is prejudiced and even hinted within the Employment ad..example: "Females excel in this field..minorities encouraged to apply".
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Korg Stygian
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
12-06-2004 10:18
From: Jonny Dusk
snip...definition crazy stuff.. snip...Lion King (crap)snip...So, putting the slavery past aside would you care to assist me in explaining to 2 young Black men the reason they must work harder, faster, smarter and still may not recieve the same treatment and benifits as others simply because they were born, and thier parents are black, and thier skin is dark and society will respond to them differently then thier peers who may happen to be white?

Uh.. no. You don't have to. You are arguing a perception which may or may not be a valid one. I don't believe it is.

OTOH.. with respect to the rest of the snipped garbage.. black and white were not identified by "white Americans" as socialy good or bad - in and of themselves. The history of these associations is older than the US, than all European nation states and predates - but is documented in - Ancient Greek texts. Even the few artificats of African ancestry that involve writing have references to color preferences and - surprise, surprise... black is not the color associated with "good". So, don't go blaming "ole Massuh Whitey" for something that is not the "fault" of anyone alive today - or in the last century or even millenia for that matter.

Specifically WRT Your references to Lion King and the black mane.. what about Black Beauty? The epitome of "good" in terms of character. For nearly every reference you can come up with, I can probably come up with a black is good counter. This argument does not hold any water - well, it does if you like to use collendars as bowls.
Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
12-06-2004 10:27
From: Korg Stygian
You posted a one line response to my post. It was relatively negative in its own right. It reeks of an air of superiority on your part. And you apparently chose to respond, in the next post, to the "fight" aspect...

"Whatsa matter you"? Can't finish an argument - stand up to the challenge?

My argument is that your race is not becoming extinct.... not if you are of the human race. Anything else is relative garbage. Take a baby from its mother on one side of the world and raise it in a culture on the other side of the world and its identity is that of the "adoptive parents". So... extinction is relative.

I don't sing the songs of the Third Reich some of my relatives were ecstatically raised to honor as their bloodright. Guess what? I also don't sing the "Marseillie" that other relatives were raised as the sine qua non. I sing the American national anthem because that is my here and now. You want your culture to fend off extinction? Teach your kids and anyone else who will listen - but it's likely to be a losing battle.

And I feel no remorse for time respects no one....All things change. And the more they change, the more they stay the same.


Your initial post was a mocking attack reeking of superiority - I replied in kind.

In the sense that race denotes species, you are correct. It actually is decadency and culture that are more relevant than skin colour - I am speaking of a social construct as opposed to a race. And the social construct of the Native American people is passing into extinction. Extinction is only relative, when you are not becoming extinct.

My opinion is different from yours in that it is my belief that humans overall suffer a loss because of it.

It is the values of the Native American social construct that I descend from that cause me to reject the values you so enthusiastically embrace. I personally find little in Caucasian American culture that I value - mostly because I've had it shoved down my throat at the expense of my own heritage and culture.

America - Love it or Leave it.

Well I don't love it, I just have a tenuous peace treaty with it.

And I do teach anyone who will listen about the culture of my ancestors, in that I have documented all of the laws, values, stories, songs and even recipies that I could find.
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Paolo Portocarrero
Puritanical Hedonist
Join date: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 2,393
12-06-2004 10:34
From: Tito Gomez
Paolo, but even within Italy, there is extreme prejudice and you could even say racism from the Northern Italians (blonde hair, blue eyed, light skin) to the Southern Italians (dark hair, dark eyes, dark skinned). Don't take my word for it, this is what my many native Italian friends have told me. Look it up.

The 'successes' you speak about are all material things. If you take the pyramids for example, they were built through slavery, at the expense of numerous human lives. Is that something to be proud about?

Pessimistically yours,

- T -

I'm not sure if you got the point of my post, Tito. I wasn't taking pride in my genetic ancestry, just my association with a culture that has an amazingly rich history and a beautiful people. I think I made it clear that I don't find anything "superior" about Italians, just that I find them to have a spirit and zest for life that endears them to me.

Also, regarding your point about successes being "material" things, aren't also the cited failures "material" in nature? We tend to evaluate people based only upon the externally visible behaviors and physical attributes. We forget what lies within the variously tinted skins of humanity.

Edited to add: In response to your question about slavery and the pyramids, it's all about context. My underlying premise was this: Humanity is replete with great accomplishments and crushing defeats. IMO, the one we focus on most tends to pre-destine the future.
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Blake Rockwell
Fun Businesses
Join date: 31 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,606
12-06-2004 10:37
With each age comes new culture. History can only be recorded an re-enacted. My Grandmother was raised by Native American Indians..there is nothing wrong with acknowleging your culture or Celebrating it and sharing it with others. We can only try to meld into what is and acknowlege what was.
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Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
12-06-2004 10:41
From: Olympia Rebus
This site questions the notion that Caucs are the only ones who abuse the environment.

Homo Sapiens has probably been destroying cultures since they figured out how to throw rocks (Not that this makes it "ok", of course.). If the extent of all the lost traditions, mythologies, music, craftmanship and inginuiety of the world's extint cultures were known, people would be horrified at the extent of what has been lost.


I agree, they have. But just because something has been done historically and to large extents does not make it any less horrifying or mean that overall, the human race has not grown less because of it.
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Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
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12-06-2004 10:57
This is really a great thread so far! I love seeing a bunch of people able to articulately discuss this subject intelligently without it turning into a hateful flame fest. It's an excellent reminder of why I love this community so much!

Johnny... I have great empathy for where you're coming from because I have my own characteristics that are discriminated against, and there are certain things that will always be denied me because of what I believe and how I look.

I'm an atheist, and because of that (unless I hid it or pretended to be something else) I could never aspire to high elected office. Not that I do aspire for that, but knowing that I couldn't get there even if I wanted to is disheartening. It could also very easily cost me a job, or the ability to advance in a career. I've not personally had that experience but know many others who have. I'm also a long haired guy and could not work in many companies without being told I'd have to get a haircut in order to work there. That has happened to me. I was the most senior and experienced employee at a company when it was bought by a big corporation. I was told by the new management I had to get a haircut to continue to work there. I told them if they were so stupid as to lose their most experienced employee because of that then I'd rather not work for them anyway. Three months later they begged me to come back. I made them give me a raise... and I never did get that haircut. These examples might seem trivial compared to the hardships and discrimination that blacks have endured, but to my way of thinking they are all equally trivial. The fact that other people place undue importance on such things is no reason for me to do it, or to teach my children to do it.

I believe that blacks perpetuate their own plight by putting so much emphasis on their race. It's easy to understand why, since non-blacks have placed so much emphasis on it and singled out and pushed blacks aside. I believe that people should be colorblind, and I don't find the fact that so many people are not colorblind to be a reason for me not to be.
I think you should teach your children that other people will single them out and treat them differently because of the color of their skin, but that it's foolish and wrong to care what color people are... teach them that there's only one race that matters... the human race. Other people may not be able to get past the fact that they are black... and that is the strongest argument for them to get past it themselves. We will never live in a colorblind society as long as people place so much importance on race... from either side of the fence.

I wish there weren't things like the NAACP. I'd rather there be something like the "national association for the equality of all people" rather than specifically for the advancement of colored people. I find things like the miss black america pageant every bit as offensive as I'd find a miss white america pageant... or black music awards, or black television, and on and on. I find it curious that people can feel so resentful of the fact that others try to wall them off into a seperate community based on the color of their skin and yet instead of trying to tear down those walls they help build them from the other side.

I'm not opposed to cultural identity. Culture is beautiful, rich, and meaningful. But cultural identity should be chosen rather than assigned through an accident of birth. There are many examples of cultures that are not based on region, heritage, color, ethnicity, etc... like "goth" culture, "surf" culture, and so on. They are open to anyone who chooses to adopt them based on common tastes and interest. I wish all culture was that way. I fully realize and accept that my view is hopelessly idealistic, and the world I hope for will probably never exist. I don't see that as a reason for me not to live as if that world is already here and now. If it's ever going to actually arrive it has to start with individuals making individual choices about how to live their lives, treat the people around them, and raise their children. My view might seem selfish and self absorbed to people who place importance on their own race and ethnicity because it isn't important to me. I personally see it as the opposite. You are my equal, no matter how much you or anyone else tries to point out superficial differences.
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Jonny Dusk
The ArtIst of War
Join date: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 477
12-06-2004 11:05
Alrighty I was simply trying to add some basic observations along with some personal experience.

Racism is yes, a world wide problem, and an extremely complex psychological issue.

We can all nitpick each detail, I was making generalizations.
Seems like the majority feel this is not a problem? Like finding as many positive connentations for "black" as there are for "white" and vice versa. And sure White people can be discriminated against as well, can't deny that.

Since it appears I'm not making sense to any one, maybe someone can tell me why there are such seperation in our society?

I was simply trying to add other aspects to contemplate instead of the usual "I ain't do it", "It's just stupid", "Blame this that and the other". We're a little past blame but there are things still in motion that are there to basically hold minorities in check.

? Who runs the world? And how?

I appologize if I've offend or upset any one. Please accept my sincerist apologies.

Not to worry I will keep the rest of my colander bowel ridden garbage to my self.
Blake Rockwell
Fun Businesses
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Posts: 1,606
12-06-2004 11:14
Any Positive or Negative that the Human Brain can conceive will always exist until the end of time.
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Jonny Dusk
The ArtIst of War
Join date: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 477
12-06-2004 11:14
Great point Chip, see that sounded more like the Chip I know :D

And I'm actually 100%, to bad your not running the country, effecting our economy, and social programs :D I too am outraged by, especially blacks, inability to see that by creating certain groups is only further segrigating us. We as Blacks and White, the younger, new, supposedly more intelligent, generation need to come together and try to help each other out for the betterment of all and prosperity for the future. Problems there! Can we change?

Good post Chip :D
Korg Stygian
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
12-06-2004 11:19
From: Rose Karuna
I agree, they have. But just because something has been done historically and to large extents does not make it any less horrifying or mean that overall, the human race has not grown less because of it.

There is an old saw that people dislike things in others, or external to themselves, in direct proporion to that which they dislike the same thing in themselves....

Interesting.. you are horrified because you can see yourself doing things that "horrify"??? wow... what a thought.... :)
Korg Stygian
Curmudgeon Extraordinaire
Join date: 3 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,105
12-06-2004 11:26
From: Jonny Dusk
We as Blacks and White, the younger, new, supposedly more intelligent, generation need to come together

Uh.. Who says the current - or any - generation is more intelligent than any other generation? A particular generation?

Hogwash is not even close to the contempt with which such a ridiculous statement should be treated - on its face. Horseshit is a lot closer.
Chip Midnight
ate my baby!
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 10,231
12-06-2004 11:43
From: Jonny Dusk
We as Blacks and White, the younger, new, supposedly more intelligent, generation need to come together and try to help each other out for the betterment of all and prosperity for the future. Problems there! Can we change?


I think we can change, but we have to accept that we each only have the power to change ourselves, and we should live according to what we believe is right no matter how much everyone else disagrees. I'm often annoyed by the combative nature of atheists and the battles they choose to fight, because they operate on an assumption that we can change the world by force, and within our lifetimes. We can't. Something as deeply ingrained as racial, ethnic and religious identity can only change very gradually. It's easy to get frustrated and feel that we as individuals are powerless against the force of history and the other several billion people on the planet. I choose to look at everything from an idividualistic point of view. By believing what I do, and speaking out about it when appropriate to those who will listen, I'm doing my part. If it has any affect it will be too gradual to see, so I choose not to worry about results. I know what I believe is right and choose to live accordingly. That's all any of us can do... and it will have an influence. Grass grows, even though we can sit on our lawns all day staring and not be able to see it change.
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Paolo Portocarrero
Puritanical Hedonist
Join date: 28 Apr 2004
Posts: 2,393
12-06-2004 12:57
From: Korg Stygian
There is an old saw that people dislike things in others, or external to themselves, in direct proporion to that which they dislike the same thing in themselves....

Interesting.. you are horrified because you can see yourself doing things that "horrify"??? wow... what a thought.... :)


There is also the sociological phenomenon of the Fundamental Attribution Error. We tend to give the benefit of the doubt to those most like ourselves, and find those least like us to be un-trustworthy.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
12-06-2004 13:19
From: Jonny Dusk

So, putting the slavery past aside would you care to assist me in explaining to 2 young Black men the reason they must work harder, faster, smarter and still may not recieve the same treatment and benifits as others simply because they were born, and thier parents are black, and thier skin is dark and society will respond to them differently then thier peers who may happen to be white?


Jonny,

Brilliant post. :)
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Tito Gomez
Mi Vida Loca
Join date: 1 Aug 2004
Posts: 921
12-06-2004 13:27
Chip, I think you have said it all.

We all get discriminated by others, whether is because we are short, fat, Mexican, white, female, male, rich, poor, atheist....

As a white guy, or black man, try going to the barrio in East L.A. or 26th St. in Chicago. My friend, you will at the very least, be harrassed, at worse, get your butt kicked. Why? Because of the color of your skin. No other reason. Prejudice and racial discrimination is an equal opportunity employer.

And look around... In America, there are highly successful people of all colors, religions, sexes, and nationalities. Why? Because I can guarantee that they worked their ass off to get to where they are. Sure they had all kinds of obstacles in the way, some more than others, but some people are simply better at overcoming them.

Everyone has an excuse. Those who don't make excuses and pay the price that has to be paid for success, with a little luck thrown in, make it.

Since I came to the USA, I have seen friends of mine become millionaires and some others end up in prison. We all basically had the same opportunity. Some took advantage, some didn't.

Me? I am middle of the road. Could have done much better, could have done much worse. I know I am where I am because of my own actions, and even though I have been a 'victim' of prejudice many times, and not exclusively at the hands of WAP's, I do not blame anyone for my shortcomings and recurring stupidity.

In this country, it is a habit to blame failure on others. However, this is still the land of opportunity, and if you cannot make it here, you cannot make it anywhere else. No excuse.

- T -
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Jonny Dusk
The ArtIst of War
Join date: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 477
12-06-2004 14:05
From: Korg Stygian
Uh.. Who says the current - or any - generation is more intelligent than any other generation? A particular generation?

Hogwash is not even close to the contempt with which such a ridiculous statement should be treated - on its face. Horseshit is a lot closer.


This is a prime example of nitpicking. I realize some people haven't evolved much since the existance of homo sapiens but you mean to tell me that we as a species have not become more intelligent with each passing generation?!!!

I don't think many 8 yr olds were doing geometry in 1800's. So the simple fact we are communicating in such a maner, computer, internet vs letters delivered by stage coach doesn't mean anything?

Well if you say so.

From: Korg Stygian
Uh.. Who says the current - or any - generation is more intelligent than any other generation? A particular generation?

Hogwash is not even close to the contempt with which such a ridiculous statement should be treated - on its face. Horseshit is a lot closer.


You seem to be making a fine example for your argument that man has not become any more intelligent since it's appearance on Earth!!!

OK Korg you go ahead and make your point and I'll be gracious enough not to nit pick it to death, miss the topic completely, and attempt to belittle you and call your post horseshit especially when I've got absolutely nothing to contribute to the conversation.
Rose Karuna
Lizard Doctor
Join date: 5 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,772
12-06-2004 14:36
This is a poem that I found a while back and thought that I would share it in light of this subject:

TEARS OF A NATION


I met a man of many colors
And a tear was upon his cheek.
"Old man" I ask, "why do you cry
With such an agonizing weep?"


"Oh child" this man he says to me,
"My heart is broken in so many ways
That I believe this day to end
Will find me out stretched and far within
The encompassing earth of sin."


I sat down beside this man
And asked him "do not cry.
For what you think is so bad
That life will pass you by?"


He looks at me with such sad eyes.
And weeps ever more.
He holds his hands out to me
And alas, I do see
The anguish of his heart.


For his hands were different colors
One is red and the other white,
A leg he unclothed for me
Was as yellow as could be
And his other leg as black as night.


"I am the father of the world.
In case you do not know.
And my children have grown apart
And fight among themselves.


For when they do not get along
My arms and legs and hands and feet
Destroys the very life of me.


My hands of red and white
Will not feed this face of night.
And my legs of black and yellow,
Will not stand beneath this body
And support my heart and soul.


For they argue far too much,
And now I have grown old.


So here I sit in this haven
Of unwelcomeness.
And when this day ends,
A father I will not be.
For my children of many nations
Have forgotten how to accompany me.


LneStarLdy

I'm sure that there are 1000 ways to intellectually mock it - but I did not post it for that reason, I just thought that it was a different way of saying what we all have been posting about.
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Foster Virgo
Registered User
Join date: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 175
12-06-2004 14:55
I was going through my mp3 collection and came upon one of my old favorites by Ras Kass. It's called nature of the threat, probably the first rap joint I ever really listened to more than the beat. I never tried to pick it apart word for word as many times it seemed fairly racist in nature to begin with. I think alot of the facts stated are true and it gives a fairly brief history about the origins of racism and how elements shaped society. I believe Ras Kass is currently serving a prison sentence.

Ras Kass-Nature of The Threat



Let freedom ring with a buckshot, but not just yet

First we need to truly understand the nature of the threat

And a pale man walks in the threshold of darkness

Roughly 20,000 years ago the first humans evolved

with the phenotypical trait, genetic recessive

Blue eyes, blonde hair and white skin

Albinism apparently was a sin to the original man, Africans

So the mutants traveled North of the equator

Called Europeans later, the first race haters

So here's the Devil's alpha to the beta

Cause history's best qualified to teach one

Quoting German philosopher Schopenhauer

"Every white man is a faded or a bleached one"

Migration created further mutation

Genetic drifts, evolution through recombination

Adaptation to the climate

As the Caucus Mountain man reverted to that of a primate

Savage Neanderthals, until the late Paleolithic age

That's when the Black Grimaldi man came

With the symbol of the dragon, fire and art

Check cave paintings in France and Spain to the Venus of Willendorf

Around 2000 B.C. Southern Russians migrate in small units

Those who travel West populated Europe

Those who went East settled in Iran, known as Aryans

1500 B.C. some crossed the Khyber Pass into India and

created Hinduism, the first caste system, the origins of racism

A white dot on the forehead meant elite

The black dot - defeat; untrustable, untouchables

They wrote the holy Vedas in Sanskrit

That's the language that created Greek, German, Latin and English

Now the Minoans around 2000 B.C.

Starts on the island of Crete, in the Agean Sea

The Greek culture begins Western Civilization

But "Western Civilization" means "White Domination"

Myceneans learned from Kemet, called Egypt in Greek

It existed since at least 3000 B.C.

Creatin geometry and astronomy

This knowledge influenced Plato, Socrates and Hippocrates

Cause Imhotep, the real real father of medicine

Was worshiped in Greece and Rome in the form of a Black African

The word Africa comes from the Greek "Aphrike"

meaning "without cold"; the word philosophy means "love of knowledge"

Stole from first man, Greek power expands

The first Greek fraternities band

The word gymnasium is Greek for "naked"

This was the place where adolescent boys were educated, and molested

This was accepted because Greek culture was homosexual

For example, Sappho trained girls on the island of Lesbos

Hence, the word lesbian (Ay let these dumb motherfuckers know)

December 25th, the birth of Saturn

A homosexual god, now check the historical pattern

December 25, now thought the birth of Christ

Was Saturnalia, when men got drunk,

fucked each other then beat their wife

Fact is, it was still practiced, til they called it Christmas

So put a gerbil on your Christmas list

The Hellenistic Era, Alexander the Great

Conquers all the way to India leavin four successor states

By the Fifth century B.C., R.O.M.E.

succeeds to be the conqueror of Egypt and Greece

But had the threat of the Black Phoenicians in Sicily

The Punic Wars began 264 B.C.

The Black general Hannibal and Carthaginian Peace

In 146 B.C. Carthage fell after a six-month siege

Rome sold every citizen to slavery

The first genocide of history

And more bisexuality in sight; Julius Caesar was known as

"every woman's husband and every man's wife" (BEOTCH!)

Spartacus Revolt, a slave rebellion that lost

Where 6,000 slaves was nailed on a cross

Cross? Aw, shit! Jesus Christ! Time for some-act-right

Christians get your facts right

Cause Christ was not his name

That's Greek for "One who is anointed"

Yoshua Ben Yosef was his name, do Christians know this?

So who do you praise, do you know his name?

Or do you do this in vain?

Accepting the religion they gave slaves to behave

Peep the description of historian Josephus

"Short, dark, with an underdeveloped beard was Jesus"

He had the Romans fearing revolution

The solution was to take him to court and falsely accuse him

After being murdered by Pilate how can it be

these same white Romans established Christianity

Constantine would later see the cross in a dream

In his vision, it read "En Hawk Signo Wonka":

"In this sign we conquer" - Manifest Destiny

In 325 he convened the Nicean Creed

And separated god into three

Decided Jesus was born on December 25th

and raised then on the third day is a myth

Plus to deceive us

Commissioned Michelangelo to paint white pictures of Jesus

He used his aunt, uncle, and nephew

Subconsciously that affects you

It makes you put white people closer to God

(Yo, 'The Man' got game like a motherfucker!)

True indeed, fuck it, Jihad

In the eight century Muslims conquered

Spain, Portugal and France and controlled it for 700 years

They never mention this in history class

cause o'fays are threatened when you get the real lesson

Moors from Baghdad, Turkey threatened European Christians

Meaning, the white way of life; hence the Crusades for Christ

On November 25th, 1491

Santiago defeats the last Muslim stronghold, Grenada

King Ferdinand gave thanks to God for victory

And the Pope of Rome and declared this date to forever be

A day of "Thanksgiving" for all European Christians



.. Now listen, when you celebrate "Thanksgiving"

What you are actually celebratin

is the proclamation of the Pope of Rome

Who later, in league with Queen Isabella

sent Cardinal Ximenos to Spain

to murder any blacks that resisted Christianity

These Moors, these black men and women

were from Baghdad, Turkey

And today, you eat the turkey, for your "Thanksgiving" day

as the European Powers destroyed the Turkeys

Who were the forefathers of your mothers and fathers

Now fight the power, you bitch-ass niggaz!



Now around this time, Whites started callings us Negroes

That's Spanish for black object meaning we're not really people

but profit, and the triangle trade begins - they seize us

Queen Elizabeth sends the first slaves on a ship named Jesus

Stealin land from the indigenous natives

Gave them alcohol to keep the Red Man intoxicated

Whites claim they had to civilize these pagan animals

But up until 1848 there's documented cases

of whites bein the savage cannibals, eatin Indians

In 1992, it's Jeffery Dahmer

They slaughtered a whole race with guns

Drugs, priests and nuns

1763, the first demonic tactic of biological warfare

As tokens of peace, Sir Jeffery Amherst

passed out clothin and blankets to the Indian community

Infested with small pox, knowin they had no immunity

Today it's AIDS, you best believe it's man made

Cause ain't a damn thing changed.. let me explain

Now since people of color are genetically dominant

and Caucasoids are genetically recessive

and Whites expect to be predominant, meaning survive as a race then

they simply must, take precautions

That's why they're worried about their future now

Cuz by 2050, almost all the Earth's population

will be brown, then black, so understandin that, whites counterreact

(I'm sayin.. man.. them fools

ain't nothin but a teaspoon of milk in the world color majority)

So they created a system

to force blacks into an unnatural position

That re-enforces the position of natural inferiority

In addition, created guns and developed the ethnocentric view

that God justifies every fuckin thing they do

Condition people to perceive whites' culture as civilized

and every other culture considered primitive - not true!

Racism is the system of racial subjugation against nonwhites

in every areas of human relation

Entertainment, education, labor, politics

Law, religion, sex, war and economics

See blacks were 3/5ths of a man with tax purposes intended

You think you're Afro-American?

You're a 14th amendment and a good nigga

Jews don't salute the fuckin swastika

but niggaz pledge allegiance to the flag that accosted ya

They never teach about the break of islands like Jamaica

But before slaves came here whites would take a

pregnant women, hang her from a tree by her toes

Slice her stomach with a knife

and let the unborn baby fall to the flo'

And stop an unborn child in front of all the slaves

to inbreed fear, so they'd be scared and behave

and not rebel more

Understand all whites must be perceived as potential predators

I paraphrase historian Ishakamusa Barashango

"Understand that regardless of the lofty ideas ingraved on paper

in such documents as the Constitution or Declaration

the basic nature.. of the European American white man

remains virtually unchanged".. so check

This is the nature of the threat
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