Racism only if your caucasian?

Why is it unpleasant? What is good for the goose I say. You know I am sick of all the idiots in the world passing racism off on the the "white man." Humans have oppressed themselves since the dawn of time. We have oppressed those whithin our own segment of the color wheel and we have oppressed those outside of it. Read a bit of history. The African Nation was not always oppressed by whitey. In fact civilization flourished there long before the dutch ever set foot on that golden sand. Let's look at the big picture people instead of the few years of history by which we choose to set the standard.

Blacks are racist, whites are racist, asians are racist, hispanics are racist...Do you know why? We let the slope of our nose and the melatonin content of our skin seperate us because we are too obtuse to find another means. His post isn't unpleasant. It is a valid question; if blacks can be proud of their heritage, if asians can be proud of their heritage, if hispanics can be proud of their heritage then why can whites not be proud of their heritage? I'll tell you why. Because everyone wants to blame slavery on the white American. Most folks are too ignorant to look into history and see that slavery of some sort has occured in every culture, whether it is indentured servitude or outright ownership.

Bleh...what makes me sick is the fact that people still get angry over this. Furthermore it knots my stomach that it is ok for one color to show pride and then scream racism when another color does it.

Which side of the soft boiled would you like to crack?

I share your admiration for the tenacity of the Jewish people, but the problem that I see with this point of view is that it's counterproductive. There is no doubt that certain ethnic and racial groups have drawn the short straw throughout history, but what baffles me is why members of those racial and ethnic groups have converted that into a point of pride. To me, the bottom line is that if you place ANY importance on your (or anyone else's) race or ethnicity and think of it as something that differentiates you from your fellow human beings, then you are part of the problem. It doesn't matter if you belong to a hsitorical oppressor or the historically oppressed. It think it's irrational to judge people based on such superficial things, and yet we do it to ourselves. I can no more take pride in the accomplishments of other white people simply on the basis that I am also white as I can take pride in anyone else's accomplisments. I didn't do them. If people suffered because of some characteristic that I share with them, that's a shame, but I have not suffered. Their burden isn't mine unless I make it mine. nor is anyone else's triumph mine. The only things that belong to me are what I've made of my own life, as an individual, and that stands apart from race, gender, ethnicity, or any other superficial quality. I find it odd and troubling that we decry racism and ethnocentrism while celebrating our races and ethnicity. They are two sides of the same coin. When people relate to me based on their individual tastes and interests then we are equals... individuals relating to each other as individuals... each unique and special. As soon as race or cultural identity are introduced then suddenly we are no longer equals... we are members of seperate clubs. Call me crazy, but I like it better when we're equal individuals. Human beings spend far too much time trying to divide themselves into seperate exclusive clubs, and always to their detriment, or the detriment of others. I long for the day when there are no more whites, blacks, germans, jews, christians, muslims, or anything else... and instead we are just individuals judging each other on our individual merits.

Um.. sorry to be off topic, but why am I your avatar?

Cuz everyone loves you so much!

Dang. I just thought Yuki was your alt.

Alt... How... What? Pfft....

Cristiano,

Well said - a great posting.

Chip,

I can't say I share your point of view, but I have to say it is probably the more rational one. As always, you make a lot of sense.

This is going to sound like a slam.. but it's not.
This sounds an awful lot like Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech which actually wasn't very original itself except in its final construction in terms of meter and deliberate pacing when orated.

Onward... it IS a dream and that, unfortunately, is all it can ever be as humands are genetically incapable of perpetual unselfishness. It's the old perspective of I-vs-Other. Observation by individual - I am like this one and different from that one on some "arbitrary measure". (un)Conscious analysis by individual - The former benefits from "our" shared characteristics is "x" way while the latter suffers from "our differences" in terms of characteristics. I want to be benefited or have more status in society - so I will play up the former while disassociatig myself from or denying the latter. Voila - prejudice in action!

A few million years of genetic development/evolution ain't going to be changed by a bunch of liberal theory or even behavior modification practices... People will continue to be driven by their most base genetic makeup - and occasionally, occasionally be able to overcome that and act "like a caring human being".

Otherwise, we are what genetic evolution has made us... base creatures driven by emotions and complicated by intelleigence in such a manner as to drive us crazy at times. Only man can be ashamed of himself - a completely wasted "effort".

a good technocrat will recognize that genetically and physiologically people of different skin colours are as different from each other as people of the same skin colour.

myself, i am very proud of my rare but superior 0- blood!!! i need an association to protect my rights!

Cristiano, in ref to your last long ass post. ( ) Asian women ARE the standard of beauty.

I concur

I understand your point Cristiano..hell..even in America..though I am white..if I go to Miami Florida..I am a minority. If I was born in Japan..I would be a minority. The best way we can all look at it is through the eyes of a child..who doesn't know what race is. Some African Americans accuse the white man of Slavery when their own Chieftains sold their own as slaves. All throughout history man has bartard humans for Slaves...even the White Man. Prejudice is an angry outburst of ones own shortcomings.

Ask Colen Powell about his or Condolisa Rice.

I grew up in Black schools, ask me how I felt being threaten every day...robbed of my lunch money..ganged up on..ask me why I have my own shortcommings. I couldn't help that I grew up in Segregated Schools that Nixon passed. The white people moved to the Counties and my parents couldn't afford to do so. I had no control over that. There is good and bad in every race. Hate breeds hate. If the human race was attacked by Aliens..would you not fight beside your own race which is human? I think not. Would you kill someone beside you defending the human race though they are not your color or nationality? I think not. Maybe only if or when this happens will people wake up.

I do not believe there should be any Black History Month or any Race History month period. How about Human History Month?

In reply to Cris's post...

I see your point of view and all statements are correct. However, There is now BET, there are all shows on every Major Channel ABC, NBC and CBS that have all African American Cast. There is African American News Anchors, Talk show host and lets not forget the first ever crowned African American Miss America was Vanessa Williams in 1983. There is the Ebony Awards. African Americans dominate the music industry. We have African American politicians in all levels. The list goes on and on. America has come along way since the days of slavery. The question I have is this...when will they stop using their ancestors misfortune as an excuse everytime they get treated unfairly? This Generation didn't have slaves....when are they going to stop treating us like we are the ones that did it to them? (isn't that racism in some way?).

Agreed this is a sensative subject. I'm sorry if I sound unsympathetic, this is not the case. I love all races. I just can't stand whiners.

Huggerz,
MJ

There is only ONE race... the HUMAN race. You are either a part of it or you are not, plain and simple. No matter what color our skin, how slanty our eyes, how sturdy our frame, what country you were born in, what religion you practice or do not practice, how nappy our hair, the simple fact is, we all bleed the same, we're all pink inside, we are all genetically capable of breeding within our own species.

Deal with it and move on people!

Thank you very much! Great post Christiano and others!

Arti

[rant]
Ohh and while we are on the subject, if you were born in America, you're friggin AMERICAN, plain and simple. You're not an African-American, Hispanic-American, Asian-American, or what-the-fuck-ever. And if you are Jewish, that's a RELIGION and not a "race", I have when people confuse that $hit! Those are my two biggest pet peeves on this subject.
[/rant]

i have O- blood too jau if you ever need a transfusion

OMG.. the world is coming to an end.. MJ and I actually raionalized something the same way.. I must be becoming.. ... no, can't/won't go there as we agree....

Anyway... Unfortunately, you have produced your own counter-argumetn by the use of the "we-they" construction. Those "on the other side" of this argument can now point to your argument and say, "See? You consider us different from yourself! WE have to continue the fight! It's YOUR fault!" thereby continuing to portray themselves as victims in an oppressive society.

Personally, I can't stand Bill Cosby or his politics in general. However, recently he has made a few statemens which I totally agree with. It is time to stop the "blame game" all around. Peole of ethnic/racial minorities in the US have the opportunities to do things today that were not possible just a few years ago. It's not Utopia here, but no one is holding anyone down and slavery is a thing of the past. We've reached the point where the segregation pendulum is swining back the other way and certain communities are insisting that all-minority schools be allowed - as neighborhood schools.

In the US, it has been demonstrated time and again that if you work hard, you can succeed economically. From economic success, most things associated with "the good life" follow. There is no "guarantee of happiness" in the US - only the right to pursue it. So, I would LOVE to see the blame game of racist rhetoric - which can and does come from all sorts of directions in our society - ended. OTOH, I don't think it is in the nature of people to do that - end such rhetoric. It garners too much attention, it plays n the sensitivites of listener's own emotional expeirences, and it actually appears to have roots in Christian (and earlier) religious dogma relating to "original sin" and "our guilt"/shame because we ain't as perfect as God made us.

I don't play the blame game. I f*ck up and admit it generally when I do. OTOH, my successses and my mistakes are mine - I would love to see people accept their own foibles, work on them and move on without comparing themselves to others. Unfortunately this is a pipe dream - so I waste no time thinking about it.

Well, I dont think there is anything particularly moral or amoral about distinguishing between different groups of people. Its the way people work, and no amount of philosophisizing is going to change that. If someone calls on this, I can flesh this assertion out some.

So, why is it legal for certain ethnicities to state them proudly in public but not ok for others?

Perhaps what it comes down to is: white people are in power, by and large, throughout vast swathes of the Western world. We've basically come to an agreement with other ethnicities not to rub that in. Better to have power and peace, than run around flaunting it and generate essentially unproductive conflicts?

Azelda

The writer T. Ghostwood Davidson describes an experience where he told people at school that he was Indian and the school called his father and said that their son was telling tales [lies] at school. Following this incident, Ghostwoods father took him to the reservation to talk with his grandparents and here is what his grandfather told him:

"NEVER let it be known you are Indian; you can pass for white, so BE white - forget everything you know about being Indian, forget all of it - because if you do not, you'll be treated worse than [blacks]." ---T. Ghostwood Davidson

I personally had a nearly identical experience. Bear in mind that I grew up in the 1950's. Nevertheless, the sentiment is still indicitive of anyone who lives near a large reservation even today.

The cultural and spiritual teachings of my anscestors are my heritage, my history and my blood. Yet in order to survive in this society, my parents had to deny me that heritage.

I sense that racism is not about "colour" as much as it is about a humans approach to living. Native American People, Native African People, Native South American People all shaped their lives to fit the environments. Shelter, food, clothing were all designed to work within the constraints of their "earth". They understood their environment to the extent that they were imersed within it.

Caucasian People have shaped the environment to fit their lives. This approach appears to have been far more productive and successful in the short term though the jury is still out on how successful living like this is for the long term.

I have to ask the question, which culture, throughout history, has not been guilty of warring against their neighbors? Which culture has not at one time or another been guilty of horrendous atrocities against their fellow man? Which people have not fought fiercely, desperately against invaders to defend their own way of life?

I personally, can think of none. Caucasian people have just extended globally and carried with it their inherent philosophy, religion and way of life. People and cultures that stood in the way, were merely mowed down or used in the process.

The American government - and by extension, the American [Caucasian] people (I say caucasian because either Native American nor Black Americans had the right to vote at the time, so were technically not "Americans" - broke every single last one of the over 350 treaties signed with the American Indians; pushing the American Indians off into unwanted and unusable land and barren reservations where they fight amoung themselves for whatever land and water rights that remain.

I am sorry to say that the injustice, discrimination, and genocidal treatment of the Native American People continue to this day. What makes me saddest are the beautiful stories, pictures, songs and languages that have been lost. Gone forever, never to be told to our children, not even echos in the wind.

Hey Blaze, why do you think Reagan mentioned, I think @ 5 times publicly, "possible alien encounters" as his and Gorby's resolution to the human problem umungst humans?

Good point as alway Cristiano!

Well Brother Chippster, we're at a slight disagreement here my friend.

How true this is but, yet the power structure that governs the US, and in turn the world, don't feel this way.

Now this seems a little self absorbing to me. I'd like to think I know (know of) you better than that. You've never appered to me to be a selfish self absorbed individual, quite the contrary. You may not have suffered my friend but let me tell you it is extremely nieve to think that, and we'll stick with the US for now, people are not suffering simply because of skin color, or more in depth, the conditions these people are foced to live in.
Let's see, Black man goes for an engineering job in Dillsburg, PA. Upon entering jaws drop, not a single other minority in this entire company, and a nation wide leader in thier field at that. End of interview "Well Mr... , maybe your overqualified and this wouldn't be interesting to you. Hmmmm.. This is what I PAID money to get educated to learn to do, graduated "top of class", work one year for another World leared in a technological field, BTW this was in Rockville, MD Sup Chip, yo yo , Came highly recomended and, if I wasn't interested then why the fuck did I come to the interview. Now given all this information what would have possibly changed this outcome?? Don't go to school, don't excel educationally or vocationally, or hmmmmmmm... If I was White.....? would this have changed things??? You tell me, and this is personal experince brother, and I got more. So should I dare say that "Thier burden isn't mine?" I had nothing to do with all the bullshit through out history yet no matter what I do, personally, we do have a very serious problem here in America, this land of "equality". I can see where it's logical to stay out of it.
Let me ask you this. If your standing around with some white police friends and they sick the K-9 on a black woman who just happens to be walking by, even thou you've done nothing, you find everyone looking at you, your friends, and this black women gettin her ass chewed. Would you help the black woman? Or maybe just stay out of it, you can't control the cops, you didn't sick the dog, you don't have any idea who the black woman is, you got nothing to do with it. Now this example is in no way implying that you should feel any way responsible for anything someone else does but, when you turn your back and do nothing it can be just as damaging as the acts themselves. Would you at least wish that something would be done to stop this kind of attrocious behavior, even if your not willing to do anything yourself. This is called compassion. I totally see where your going and I agree, unfortunately the racist power structure that governs the United States of America does not.

Sniff.. sniff.. okay.. enoough. So are any number of "Dead languages" and cultures - gone from the present world I mean. I am not sad about the current treatement of any "people" as a group... Why should I be? I treat everyone the same, curmudgeon that I am. Treat me similarly and "we be berry berry happy together". Treat me in a manner I do not wish to be treated and there are only a few possible outcomes (other than a few variations) at the core.

1. We fight. You die. I win.
2. We fight. I die. You win.
3. One of us leaves the immediate area of the other and does not "retaliate".
4. One of us leave the immediate area of the other and plots "retaliation"... see 1 and 2 above.
5. Compromise is reached.

Guess what? I prefer choice 1. Most people claim to prefer choice 5 in today's politically correct society. So what.

Obviously. The fact that you see only these options speaks to the huge cultural divide.

Go for it.. explain to me other options that are not variations the things I listed.

/me sits back and waits for Rose to implode as she tries to find something that does not fit into one of my categories at their core - fight or compromise....

Cmon.. I am waiting.

Hmm, so what about us mutts? I am part Italian, part German, part Scotch/Irish with a sprinkling of American Indian... At various times in history, each of those ethnic group has oppressed or has been oppressed. Of those, I take the most "pride" in my Italian heritage (well, that is until I watch "Braveheart". Anyway, I love the color and flavor of Italian culture. The art, the architecture, and most of all, the fact that Italians tend to live with hearts on sleeve. I don't think Italians are, by virtue of genetics, any better or worse than any other ethnic group. After all, Italy has blessed the world with the mafia and Mussolini. Rather, Italians capture an essence of life that somehow resonates within me. And that helps me feel good about being me.

As I read through many of the earlier posts, it didn't take long to spot the "all humans suck" school of thought. Why do we find it so easy to rattle off the many failures of humanity without batting an eye? Could we just as easily spout off a list of its successes? Is a species that has produced/produces the Cistine Chapel, the Golden Gate Bridge, the Great Pyramids, the Red Cross/Crescent -- ad infinitum -- unequivocally unredeemable?

So, while I agree that racism is one of the ugliest aspects of humanity, let's remember the broader context of humanity. With all of its faults, humanity is pretty darn amazing!

Respectfully, why is there a fight at all? With no fight, there would be no variations.

Also with regard to languages, I know that the process of extinction is nothing new, and is, perhaps inseparable from the human condition. However, my statement was personal, "I" am sad. I am personally witnessing the extinction of my race, language, stories and customs. It's like watching someone you love die a slow, prolonged death.

I don't expect you to be sad about it nor do I expect anyone to even understand it. It was simply a statement in explanation as to why I believe that some people tend to hold onto and celebrate their culture more than others.

You posted a one line response to my post. It was relatively negative in its own right. It reeks of an air of superiority on your part. And you apparently chose to respond, in the next post, to the "fight" aspect...

"Whatsa matter you"? Can't finish an argument - stand up to the challenge?

My argument is that your race is not becoming extinct.... not if you are of the human race. Anything else is relative garbage. Take a baby from its mother on one side of the world and raise it in a culture on the other side of the world and its identity is that of the "adoptive parents". So... extinction is relative.

I don't sing the songs of the Third Reich some of my relatives were ecstatically raised to honor as their bloodright. Guess what? I also don't sing the "Marseillie" that other relatives were raised as the sine qua non. I sing the American national anthem because that is my here and now. You want your culture to fend off extinction? Teach your kids and anyone else who will listen - but it's likely to be a losing battle.

And I feel no remorse for time respects no one....All things change. And the more they change, the more they stay the same.