Dear World: On behalf of American voters...

Haha, what a funny thought, Selador!

What's so amazing is that we, in the US, seem to have learned little from the tribulations of most of the former monarchies of Europe, who were also all guided (and in no small way governed) first by the Roman Catholic Church and later by other Protestant sects, depending on the country.

Governing based completely on religion and religion-based "morals" (dictated by one specific religion) DOES NOT WORK. Ignoring the underprivileged masses and giving all the advantages to the upper or upper middle classes DOES NOT WORK. One only needs look to the revolutions in France and Russia for evidence of this.

Anybody who thinks the old-guard, really rich, upper echelons of the Republican party give a flying fart about anything in this country other than their own collective financial bottom line has another think coming. And now they're the ones in power and free to tip the scales even more in their favor. Anybody who works for his/her daily wage who votes for a GOP candidate is woefully misguided. Yammer on all you want about religious morals and not handing money out to the lazy homeless and gay marriage and family values, it all boils down to money, baby. George Bush has worked the evangelical vote in his favor like a travelin' tent preacher, I have to hand him that. But, the real truth is this: The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and that's just the way the GOP likes it.

Fuck moving to Canada, I'm sharpening a pitchfork for when the masses storm the White House.

Pepper,

<<--Government social programs don't work very well. This is the land of opportunity. I believe most people who live in poverty or live on the streets are there because they don't work hard, or aren't very bright, and for some, poverty is all they've ever known. If you want to live in a more "compassionate" country, move to a France or Germany where the unemployment rates dwarf America's unemployment rates.>>

You don't mention Great Britain, I see, where our unemployment rates are relatively low, and continue to fall. Where I live (which admittedly is a prosperous part of the country) the unemployment rate is close to zero.

Perhaps we are just lucky, in that everybody here has gradually become harder working and brighter. Or on the other hand perhaps your argument about the poor deserving their poverty is codswallop.

Beryl,

IMO one of the biggest human failings is our complete inability to learn from history.

It is sad to see the same mistakes repeated time and time again, with slight variations... looped and hurting so many.

No they are too chickenshit to actually kill themselves - they just like to kill women and gays (who are predominately their victims).

Ummm... How about:

Eric Rudolph: 1996 Atlanta Olympics bombing
health clinic in Birmingham, Alabama on January 16, 1997
two bombings at the Sandy Springs Professional Office Building north of Atlanta on January 29, 1998, and setting two bombs at the Otherside Lounge in Atlanta on February 21, 1997 (only one of these detonated)

Note: Many Christian Identity adherents are outspoken in their support of Rudolph as a "hero".

Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols - Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995

"Phineas Priests" in the Spokane, Wash., area. A group of four men, all members of a racist Christian Identity church in Sandpoint, Idaho, engaged in a brief reign of terror by robbing a series of banks, using pipe bombings at nearby locations (a newspaper plant and a Planned Parenthood clinic) as diversions and setting off bombs within the banks themselves. Before they were arrested by the FBI in October 1996 while attempting another robbery in Portland, Ore., they left behind a series of notes making clear their mostly Identity-driven ideological motives, marked with the sign of the "Phineas Priesthood."

The seven "constitutionalists" in the Midwest led by a Kansas man named Bradley Glover, who organized to fight what they believed was the imminent invasion of the U.S. by "New World Order" forces. "These guys were planning on attacking Fort Hood, Texas, on the Fourth of July, with 50,000 men, women and children present to celebrate the Fourth of July," Pitcavage says. "They weren't planning to use bombs, but anti-personnel devices and spraying machine-gun fire, because there were Red Chinese troops being trained there.

The shooting on 11 August 1999 of small children and their teachers at the North Valley Jewish Community Center, Granada Hills, California by Buford Furrow, the man who shot and injured three children and two adults at the community center and killed a Filipino-American postal worker. (CNN, said that Furrow’s philosophy was “hardcore Christian Identity.)

The first person convicted of violence against a women's health center ignited a gas can in a crowded New York City clinic in 1979. Since 1982, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, there have been 169 arson and bomb attacks on women's health centers in 33 states. In the '90s, when five workers in such clinics have been murdered, people calling themselves "pro-life" publicly advocate violence as a way to make legally sanctioned abortion impossibly unsafe.

Roy McMillan of the Mississippi-based Christian Action Group said that assassinating Supreme Court justices would be justifiable homicide, and that the pesident was in "probable harms way."

This does not count all the crime (such as armed robbery) to support their groups nor the individual people murdered such as doctors who perform legal abortions.

So PARDON ME if I'm a LITTLE CONCERNED THAT AMERICA IS BECOMING A SECULAR SOCIETY.

As you can see, I can SO respect these people.

I posted this in another thread too so apologies for the double posting, but this is exactly the kind of shit that is so worrying to non-Christians. I'll just post a couple of snips here. The full text is in the pledge of allegiance thread. This kind of extremist "my way or the highway" fundamentalism is a plague. As a non-Christian I don't see this as much different than the kind of extremism taught by the mullahs at their madrassahs. Sorry Pepper, but these kinds of Christians deserve every bit of bashing they get.

Congratulatory letter to Bush from Dr. Bob Jones III

"In your re-election, God has graciously granted America—though she
doesn't deserve it—a reprieve from the agenda of paganism. You have
been given a mandate. We the people expect your voice to be like the
clear and certain sound of a trumpet. Because you seek the Lord daily,
we who know the Lord will follow that kind of voice eagerly.

Don't equivocate. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil.
You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise
your Christ. Honor the Lord, and He will honor you."

"The student body, faculty, and staff at Bob Jones University commit
ourselves to pray for you—that you would do right and honor the
Savior. Pull out all the stops and make a difference. If you have
weaklings around you who do not share your biblical values, shed
yourself of them. Conservative Americans would love to see one
president who doesn't care whether he is liked, but cares infinitely
that he does right."

"On occasion, Christians have not agreed with things you said during
your first term. Nonetheless, we could not be more thankful that God
has given you four more years to serve Him in the White House, never
taking off your Christian faith and laying it aside as a man takes off
a jacket, but living, speaking, and making decisions as one who knows
the Bible to be eternally true."

http://www.bju.edu/letter

You're an idiot.

Hehe..cat of nine tails check, pitchfork check, frozen margarita's check...I'm with ya

True, Timothy McVeigh used a van filled with explosives to kill all those people. He was too much of a pussy to go down with the ship.



No, but some of them (like Ashcroft) think dancing is a sin. Religions all have thier quirky, oppressive rules.



No, they just killed off most of the native people in North and South America. Convert or die was pretty much the rule.



Amazing considering he won a Nobel peace prize. What did Sharon win? Oh, right... billions in funding from the U.S. each and every year.

And Oregon! We voted for Kerry!

Oregon also voted to ban gay marriage

that's true . I had a big argument about that with my parents. They knew no legal reasons why it should be banned, they just weren't comfortable calling gay marriage, marriage. pisses me off.

You know, I saw the title of this thread...I saw LF as the creator..I told myself no, don't look at it, you'll just get upset. By the way LF I'm not trying to be offensive I just know where you stand . I am, as you say, the majority in this nation because I am a Christian. I know the facts, I see the figures, but I don't feel like I'm the majority in any way. I see these posts, I hear the words, and I get lumped into the 'religious' group. I AM the minority in SL and pretty much anywhere I go online. Alot of times I've found myself not opening my mouth because I have seen a great deal of hostility at the mere mention of Christianity. I speak my mind but there are times when it doesn't matter what you say, it only fuels the fire.

I am a Christian, but I am not 'the religious'. I do not like being lumped into this group you've collectively added anyone with morals and a strong belief in God into. I am an individual who chose to believe in God based on the experiences in her life. I was not forced into believing it, I was raised in a home without belief in anything or anyone. My sister was raised in a home where she was taught about God and she did not rebel against it. She is a great deal more outspoken about her beliefs than I am. It just saddens me because I am labeled before I even open my mouth. You know what I think, what I feel, what I believe, and how I live my life. There is no room for religion in politics because it's a breeding ground for deception, hatred, manipulation, greed, lust, and I could go on forever. I do however think a man has a right to believe in God and let it be known to his country WITHOUT being persecuted for doing so.

I have my doubts and I have my questions because I am a human being. The logical mind of man cannot begin to understand the ways of God. I may accept this but it doesn't mean that I can't or don't ask questions every day. Every Christian has their own individual beliefs...no matter the denomination. Do I agree with abortion?, no I do not. I do believe however that there are circumstances with exceptions. Do I agree with homosexuality?, no I do not. Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't accept a person or love them just the same. We all have things we disagree with or don't believe in and it is our right to do so. Christian bashing is becoming a widely accepted activity and please don't try to tell me otherwise. I am brittish and live in the "bible belt" where I hear and see it here every day, let alone what I go through online. It is not okay to stereotype people because of their race, sex, sexual preference, class, physical appearance, etc. Somewhere along the way it became okay to stereotype a person when they mention a belief in God. I have my reasons for voting for Bush and yes alot had to do with my beliefs and convictions. I do not agree with everything he's done and said but I certainly didn't find Kerry the better choice.

Hate your president if you want, hate the fact that 'the religious' forced him on you, whatever you want to believe. Do not treat a person with disrespect, do not judge them without knowing them, and do not slam a person because of how they believe. If you're doing that..aren't you completely going against everything you supposedly stand for ?

If I've offended anyone I apologize, it is not my intention to do so.

Torrid - I don't hate Christians - I hate the fact that people who call themselves Christians are judicating and passing leglislation that directly affects my life and shoves their beliefs down my throat. I could care less if someone believes in God. If they are a good human - that deserves my respect.

But Please:

Don't interfere with MY relationship with my doctor
Don't interfere with what I read or choose to watch on television
Don't interfere with my 1st Amendment rights
Don't kill my doctor or bomb my doctors clinic or limit options for my daughter in the future

My Grandfather was forcably taken from his mother at 7 years old (he lived on a Blackfoot Reservation above Idaho) by so called Christians in town (several children were taken forcably) and he was forced into a fundamentalist Christian school so that he would not adopt native american language or spritual ways. That is disgusting and it happened right here in America.

If you are persecuted with hate toward Christians - think about how the people your religion is forcing into things feel. At least you can walk away.

Oh and just a question - If Gay people get married, just HOW DOES THAT DIRECTLY AFFECT you?

Restricting stem cell research - the Christian religion (which I do not believe in) potentially directly affects my life and the life of my progeny by limiting our options if one of us has a serious illness that could be cured by this research.

Restricting Abortion - the Christian religion potentially directly affects a female by eliminating her options to end a potentially dangerous birth. At best it limits the females options in life choices.

Restricting Gay Marriage keeps two people who want to make a comittment for life from being able to do so. They have no rights toward one another if one is hospitalized or dies.

So Christians are doing all this restricting of non-secular people, but I fail to see where non-secular people have removed any of your rights.

If you don't believe in abortion - great don't have one. If you don't believe in stem cell research - great, don't use treatments involving stem cell research. If you don't believe in Gay Marriage, great, don't be Gay (like you could control it if you were).

I'm just curious as to why you think what's good for you MUST be good for everyone else whether they want it or not.

I have never stated that what *I* think is good MUST be good for everyone else. How do you know that every person voting against gay marriages is a Christian? As a matter of fact I happen to know two that ARE Christians who voted FOR it. The fact is you are saying because I believe a certain way that it directly effects you and that is not true. When I disagree with something that doesn't mean you have to also and I specifically stated that. I do not force my beliefs on anyone. You can't honestly claim that everything you disagree with is forced upon you by 'the Christians'. I'm sorry if you don't expect a person to vote the way they feel is right because it's against what you believe in. I can't assume that every person that voted against what I believe in is not a Christian no more than you can assume they are. I know plenty of people who are Christians that believe the opposite of me as I stated before people are individuals and should be treated as such. I also stated that I don't agree with abortion except for certain cases. I feel there are times when it's understandable. I"m not going to argue every issue in this thread I simply wanted to post my feelings on being lumped into a pile of "moral God fearing folk". Also..I never said a word about stem cell research or how I feel about it.

Good Point - and conceded. So really, the way that I should have said this was that these things were being leglislated in the name of "Christianity" and by "so -called Christian Representatives". Which does not make them "Christians" anymore than being Islamic makes one a terrorist.

Torrid, we've had this discussion before a few times. Christians like you, and Gwin, and most others that I know pesonally, are not the problem... mostly. Though you said a few things I need to take issue with.

You said that religion and politics shouldn't mix which I absolutely agree with, and yet you voted for Bush because of his religion. Those things would seem to be in conflict to me. The religion of a candidate is meaningless to me as long as it's something they keep to themselves and don't try to force on others. As Rose said, when our goverment starts passing laws that are based soley on subjective religious morality then they're forcing it on others. When tax money is being used to fund church programs (as is happening with the faith based initiative program) they are forcing it on others, and forcing them to subsidize it. When stickers are placed on science books telling students that evolution is just a theory and should be considered critically, they are forcing it on others. When they put the ten commandments on display in schools and courthouses, they are forcing it on others. When they vote for political candidates based on the fact that they flaunt their religious beliefs rather than on their stance on the issues, they are forcing it on others... so even you, indirectly, and contributing to non-Christians being forced into living by your subjective religious values.

As an atheist, I could never hope to be elected for a high office, nor could my children. We would be discriminated against because we don't share the prevailing religious beliefs. I personally don't care what people believe as long as when it comes to public life, community, and government, they believe in the equality of all regardless of religion. I absolutely agree that a man has a right to believe in God without being persecuted for it... by the same token I believe that a man has a right NOT to believe in God without being persecuted for it, but unfortunately, we are being persecuted. You may feel like a minority, but your Christianity will never keep you from getting a job, being promoted, being respected by your family and community. Most atheists are afraid to speak out about what they believe because it's very likely that it will cost them their job, keep them from being promoted, cause them to be shunned by their family and community... so when you feel presecuted for your beliefs, and feel that you're in the minority, think about that. You are very much in the majority, and you do not need to hide your beliefs to be accepted. I do need to hide mine (which I'm too stubborn to do) in order to be accepted, or I have to fight for my rights every day of my life.

You also said "I am a Christian, but I am not 'the religious'. I do not like being lumped into this group you've collectively added anyone with morals and a strong belief in God into." I feel the need to point out that morals are not religious. The word morality doesn't have a religious definition. I do not lump anyone with morals into a religious group, because morals do not in any way depend on religion. The belief that non-religious people are somehow less moral is false, and is the product of a kind of indoctrinated bigotry that's been going on for so long that most people see morality and religion as one and the same. They are not. Most atheists that I know are extremely moral and eithical people who hold themselves to high standards of behavior... and very often a higher standard than religous people do because we believe that the buck stops with us.

I don't judge people based on their religion. I judge them on how they treat the rest of the people they share the planet with, regardless of whether or not they hold the same beliefs. When I see things like that letter from Bob Jones when he says "Don't equivocate. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ. Honor the Lord, and He will honor you," I see nothing but bigotry dressed up in Sunday best. When I speak out against Christianity, it's people like that I'm speaking out against... people who would make the claim that my beliefs and opinions are meaningless and should be ignored because I am not a Christian. People like that have a very real and very negative impact on the lives of people like me. I know that you're not like that, but I hope with all my heart that you do not support people who are simply because they're Christian.

You have that switched around, Rose. Secular means worldly as opposed to spiritual. People who believe that religion should be private and not a part of government are secularists.

oops ....

Most people aren't gonna believe in anything unless it's proven to them with their own eyes..and then they may still choose to deny it. Just like some don't believe in Demons..but have you ever been to an Exorcisism? Some do not believe in Miracles..but have you ever been to a Revival? All of these things can be questioned and disputed even seeing it with their own eyes. What one chooses to believe they will believe..thus is the foundation of War and only until the truth is revealed before the masses will true good and evil show it's face. One can argue Morality for a lifetime..only will the truth be revealed in death. Hmm..not a bad quote..maybe we should make a Thread called "Famous SL Quotes". lol.

Well, probably not even then But whatever you believe, as long as we all agree we're not going to know absolutes in this lifetime and none of us can presume to dictate them to everyone else, then we should all agree on the simple principle of "live and let live." Let god, if there is one, sort us out later.

I might just be speculating -- but this thread has been going mainly on the premise that the vote was legitimate.

From what I've been able to gather, more than 33% of America relied on electronic voting without receipt of those electronic votes. These votes were cast without giving the people the ability to audit the vote -- something many states REQUIRE as part of their law, but was ignored.

From this electronic vote, I've speculated that enough questionable votes were received but unverifiable that could've made a different candidate win the vote. However, since no paper trail exists... it's not possible to audit anything...

especially since the voting machines used are closed source and proprietary -- even to the officials relying on them to count their votes.

Now look at the after-effects of the vote:

- New legislation may force media producers to allow people to skip scenes of violence, gore, or sexuality BUT force them to watch advertising.

- The president immediately sent his hounds in the FBI to fire anyone who was unsupportive of him during the election campaign.

- Many bloggers (even livejournal users!) have mentioned that they have received visits from the FBI for posting material that was against the president... in the name of terrorism.

- And ENTIRELY republican senate is pushing out bills faster than I can breathe that give the American government sweeping powers. They can make sure you never fly in a jet again without you even knowing. They can look up your financial records without a warrant. They're even trying to press the american way of life internationally.

... pretty much I think the United States of America is turning into a police state. The new scapegoats are terrorists. They have support of most major media outlets for the propaganda. They've worked the loopholes in their own system to control it. It's pointing the fingers at it's own citizens. It's whipping it's people into a passionate frenzy

KILL THE TERRORISTS!

KILL THE TERRORISTS!!

remind you of anything?

I can think of a three letter word that used to be the faceless scapegoat that led a nation to war.

Lets face it -- the US isn't fighting terrorists in Iraq anymore. They're fighting insurgents -- rebels -- people passionate enough about the future of their country to kill for it. They've given up on the ominous "Osama bin Laden." They can't even walk near N. Korea. Let alone the other 68 some odd warzones they've been engaged in since 2000 or so.

And really... in this great democracy, the bastion of freedom and hope, do the people really think their vote mattered?

I can't say for certainty, as this is all speculation, but I don't think so. I think the presidency was pre-determined, the vote was undermined, and now the machine is preparing to strip away your rights and freedoms.

Now that I've said all this, maybe I should change my sig to: "Waiting for the FBI to extradite me to the US for questioning."

To misquote an old addage: It doesn't matter who is voting only who is counting the votes.

This is sort of a strange time in all of lives right now. Christian-bashing has become commonplace, and I'd like to share my theory why. Please note, this is just my thoughts and nothing more.

I think that Christian bashing is, to some degree, a reaction to the 'religious right' trying to pass laws that are inline with thier moral beliefs. Faith-based initiatives, women's rights, gay rights are just a few areas that have come 'under attack' by the far right in the last decade or more. Attempts to legislate religous morality is another example of what could be percieved as a push to bring religion and government together.

I think this is at the core of the issue.

Not everyone feels that all Christians are bad or out to force thier beliefs on unwilling participants, but you must admit there is a large, vocal group who puts on a face that, possibly, more moderate Christians dislike.

Anyway.. that's my theory.