Dear World: On behalf of American voters...

You're no cowboy, either, dude!

You're no cowboy, either, dude!

It doesn't matter that you're not a zealot, Grim. Like Hank said the right in this country is largely controlled by people who are. You can probably comfortably think of yourself as part of the majority... white, middle class, and Christian. As a member of a scorned minority I cannot claim to be a part of the majority, and as this election proves I can't count on the majority to protect my interests. This country is being controlled by relgious extremists. As Bush is so fond of saying, you're either with them or against them. If you aren't against them then you're with them. 11 states voted to codify religous based bigotry into their state constitutions yesterday. You voted for a man who wanted to codify it into the US Constitution. It renders your moderation meaningless. That should bother you as much as it does me.

Actually, no. I actively despise the "Religious Right." I'm from NE Georgia originally, the home neighborhood of The Christian Coalition, and being one who is capable of making up my own mind, exposure to this mentality has turned me against them rather than to them. You know we have a county here that's actually spending tax money to private lawyers to go to court and fight to keep a friggin poster hung up in the courthouse that has the 10 Commandments printed on it? That's absolutely ridiculous in my book. (FYI, I don't think it ever should have been there in the first place. It's not supposed to be a religious court.)



I don't know if you've noticed lately, but the "majority" doesn't seem to be the majority any more.



See my comment in that thread regarding that subject.

Grim...not to push the point but could you please tell me then your reason for being a neo-conservative and not a libertarian or constitutionalist?

I couldn't agree more, Beryl. It's why I speak out publicly even though I know that my point of view is offensive to many. I do what I can to not allow people within my sphere of influence to live in a bubble where opposing points of view are too easily ignored.

I've never claimed to be a neo-con. I claim to be an independent moderate that leans left on some issues, right on others, and libertarian on most. I guess technically I'm a "centrist."

Preferring GWB over Kerry doesn't automatically make one a neo-con.

Grim, I respect your reasons for voting for Bush but I do honestly wonder if your style of moderation isn't almost as much a minority stance as mine. I believe Bush won (and gets such a free pass on his misdeeds) because he flaunts his Christianity. Considering Rove based his strategy on getting out the evangelical vote and that Bush got reelected despite his dismal record in his first term, I don't think I'm wrong. Bush appeals to people's religion and nationalism... the two forces that most divide humanity. Because of that, even if I agreed with his fiscal policies, I would still have to be against him. Fiscal policies and foreign blunders can be turned around fairly quickly in the grand scheme of things. It's the overarching ideological issues that concern me more. They evolve much more slowly. If I have children and raise them as secular humanists they will never be equal. They could never be president. I can't put that aside. Not now or ever. I have to base my decisions on the bigger picture.

Grim, Andrew Sullivan has been calling said folks "Eagles", I think he grabbed the term from someone else. Basically a libertarian-leaning person, but unlike orthodox libertarians tend towards foreign policy hawks.

I'll grant the term "Eagles", while an interesting play on hawk versus dove, seems a tad pretentious. But that's just me. I just call myself a subscriber/supporter/worshipper of The Economist, generally anyway.

Grim, what bothers me is when I see people in the US who have so much, and others who have so little, and the divide just gets wider and wider every day. I cringe when I think of the fact that we don't have a socialized medical system; I am embarrassed when Europeans and Canadians question me (as an American) on this very subject. We are one of the major world powers and we can't even see that all of our citizens have decent medical care? That makes me very, very sad.

I am someone who paid for my college education through financial aid and my own work. I worked two jobs when I was first out of college to make ends meet. I know about working hard and managing money. I also see that ability to get an education beginning to slip from the grasp of kids whose parents aren't rich enough to send them to college because the amount of financial aid available gets smaller and smaller every year.

I'd like to approach this from a liberal standpoint of saying that I feel a moral obligation to help those less fortunate than I. However, there is another more practical way to view this. Europeans have learned this lesson well that we have yet to truly experience first-hand in the US: You cannot ignore your underprivileged population and leave them to starve, fester and malinger forever. They will eventually either drag the country down, or rise up and cause other problems. It is in all of our best interests to take care of everyone in our society, no matter how it may wrankle those of us who work hard for our livings.

I know people that have 3 social security numbers, but have never payed social security tax in their life. My dad is disabled from the hard work he did all his life to make the money he has saved (one hip replaced, and two knees that need replacing), but he's isn't allowed to draw disability, and has to pay for all of his replacement surgeries himself. It's no wonder that I have no confidence in the social security system.

He worked two jobs while he was in college to pay his own way through. He didn't graduate, he quit to work. He now earns nearly as much money in interest as I do in a paycheck. If he can work himself up that way, I have little sympathy for people who won't even try.

Sure, our medical system could use some work. It wouldn't be nearly as bad as it is if it weren't for frivolous lawsuits AND doctors refusing to testify against each other over obvious malpractice because of the "white line." (Think "blue line" and it makes sense.) Social medicine promotes mediocrity in the medical profession. Just like unions promote mediocrity in a wide variety of professions. I have seen this in the military (free healthcare) where most (not all) of the health professionals are mediocre or downright incompetent, because if they were top notch they'd be making at least twice the money in the private sector.

I've seen/known way too many people that work a job where they get paid under the table, because that way the employer doesn't have the extra expense of an HR person to deal with the taxes, but since there's no tax paperwork filed, they still draw a welfare check, too. On top of that, they only show up for work when they feel like it, then complain when they're replaced. Why exactly is it fair that I'm taxed for being honest and a hard worker, and that money given to someone that's on welfare because they aren't?

I have no problem helping a person help themselves. I don't have a problem with assisting people that are disabled (as I stated, my dad is disabled, and to a lesser extent so am I.) But I have a serious problem with the multitudes of people that look to the welfare system for a free ride, and there are a lot of them out there. How is paying someone to sit on their asses preventing them from malingering?

Are you aware that a large portion of our military would qualify for food stamps if they applied? Most (in my experience) don't simply out of pride, but they qualify.

Like I said, I'm all for giving someone a helping hand, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna carry them for their entire lives when they should be able to carry themselves.

Grim, if you could figure out a way to ensure that only those who truly needed the help got it, and the ones who were dishonest and/or truly didn't need/deserve the help didn't get aid, I would consider you a wise and amazing man, indeed. No politician yet, not a Republican or a Democrat, or in any country in the world, has been able to work out this dilemma.

The world is not the same now though. I know of many men in their late 60's who are similar...but I know of no one born after them who is given the same opportunity in America. The corner store is gone. You can't just open a bait and tackle business any more. With Walmartization the little man has been reduced to a bagger. I am not one for Welfare either but it is really hard for me to swallow ideas that people conjure up from the 50's and expect to hold water today. This is not the world of our fathers. Most of the US is one check away from destitution.

Grim,

<<Social medicine promotes mediocrity in the medical profession.>>

Sorry to have to say this so strongly, but your statement is bollocks. In this country the National Health Service has had problems, owing to underfunding by previous conservative governments and also the increased cost of health provision. This led to things like increased waiting lists, etc., which are now coming down. But we have always provided the very highest healthcare, and have a service that we can be proud of.

Do you really believe that Britain has mediocre health care?

I am someone who has suffered a lot of ill-health and ongoing medical issues in my life. Certainly I have paid towards the NHS, but I have taken far, far more out of it than I have put in. Yesterday I had my second cataract operation carried out with a maximum of care, medical skill and nursing time. (They even ring you up to make sure you are ok). Had I lived in the States I would have been in the unenviable position of a couple of online friends who have been faced with serious and unexpected medical issues, and then have to cope with the additional worry about the financial impact this has on their lives.

The only reason anybody could prefer a system like that would be if they hadn't experienced the alternative, IMV anyway.

<<But I have a serious problem with the multitudes of people that look to the welfare system for a free ride, and there are a lot of them out there. >>

People who are afraid of socially-oriented legislation often make the above remark. I am sure that there are some people over here, who fall into that category. But the fact is, that when work is available, the vast majority of the unemployed take it with eagerness. In my town we have virtually zero unemployment. Does that mean that our 'maligerers' have magically vanished? Or does it mean that those people who were so categorised we, in fact, eager to work, but unable to obtain employment?

<<I claim to be an independent moderate that leans left on some issues, right on others, and libertarian on most.>>

From my point of view Bush occupies a position fairly close to the extreme right. How someone who claims to be a moderate can possibly vote for him is a mystery to me.

Here's a clue: Most of America is on the extreme right, compared to political spectrums in most other developed nations. Relative to American politics, Bush can be construed to be "demi-moderate" -- and Kerry, who is extremely moderate by global standards, can be branded a flaming leftist.

I have no idea. I've never been to England, and never been in a British clinic/hospital. I have, however, been in a U.S. Army hospital a few times, and to a U.S. Army clinic many times. It's a toss-up when you go in whether you'll get the competent doctor, one of the many mediocre doctors, or a complete boob.

We had a "doctor" in a clinic in Germany (local civilian, not a military member) that did considerable damage to many people, because his standard cure-all was to take a long hot bath and drink lots of herbal tea!



I disagree, but that's why they're called opinions, right?

<<But I have a serious problem with the multitudes of people that look to the welfare system for a free ride, and there are a lot of them out there. >>



Neither. It means you live in England and I live in the U.S. You know, the land of the free ride. Where people become millionaires by pouring hot coffee in their lap and then sueing the people they bought the coffee from.

You seem to have missed the part where I actually KNOW people who would rather sit at home and draw welfare than go out and work. Or, people who do both and get away with it because they get paid under the table.



See Donovan's response. Hell, simply the fact that I'm not a bible-thumper means I'm not a neo-con here. The fact that I despise all organized religion equally practically makes me a liberal myself.

But in your country, socialism is "normal." Over here it's beyond extreme. Chalk it up to different cultures. That's the reason most of our ancestors left Britain in the first place, you know?

My family was here and fought to gain our independence of this land for ALL the people here, willing to fight and die or not. Do to your arrogance they have informed me your opinion does not count. I was also told your official capacity in the services was a potato peeler.

Glad you could see the light, happy to help.

Beryl,

<<But my husband looked me squarely in the eye and said, "If people like us (educated, moderately liberal people with more of a social conscience than a steadfast conviction to impose rigid moral beliefs on others) don't have kids, the only people raising children in the US will be those on the religious right." And I had to agree.>>

Ah, yes, but the thing you forget is that children always rebel against their upbringing. If you've ever seen Absolutely Fabulous, the situation between the mother and daughter is actually based on what happens in real life. I have an old friend who was a young woman in the sixties, who has more than a superficial similarity to Edina , and her son went into a military career.

All those children from the right-wing Christian families will turn into drug-crazed hippies, and balance will be achieved.

We now have 3 options available to us. The freedom loving people who are not church.

1. Move to Canada. The Family groups are already attacking anyone who tries to come up with this ideal. They are making fun of them .

2. Have California, Oregon, Washington, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and New England Succeed from the union and join Canada.

3. Wait till 2006 and make sure we turn out in bigger numbers than the Fundamentalist. And vote in a Democratic Congress.

The big Family Groups are already saying to the Democrats, "Shut Up, Be Quiet, do nothing for 4 years,(We suggest you all just hide or stay out of sight) And do as your told and support George the Second." They know we have power, they are even now trying to demoralize us so we will not vote in 2006 and will tow the line with them.

Since the evangelical vote has become a big issue after this past election, I've never seen more religious pundits engaging in secularist bashing all over the media. It's really disturbing. They're acting like they're completely under siege and backed into a corner. I don't understand their persecution complex. They control all three branches of government now and maintain the same comfortable majority in the population that they always have, yet they act like if they don't permanently intertwine their religion with the government it will get taken away from them. It's completely irrational, dangerous, and downright creepy. The more presecuted they feel, the more they feel justified in persecuting the rest of us. It's hard to believe this is the 21st century. This is progress?

wow I guess most people don't change much including me. I haven't been in SL or checked out the forums in months so I came in here to say: "HA-HA--in your faces!"

It's amazing how our labels can vary vastly. I've heard some right wing people call George Bush a commie while some of you think he's a Bible-thumping, extreme conservative.

Anyway here's what I want to say:

--Some of you would be happier in Canada or France. If America is so extremely conservative then get the hell out. Nobody's stopping you.

--Government social programs don't work very well. This is the land of opportunity. I believe most people who live in poverty or live on the streets are there because they don't work hard, or aren't very bright, and for some, poverty is all they've ever known. If you want to live in a more "compassionate" country, move to a France or Germany where the unemployment rates dwarf America's unemployment rates.

--Quit bashing Christians. I don't see them blowing themselves up with explosives strapped around their body. They don't go around forcing women to wear burkas. I don't see them killing Jews or Muslims. If you're going to bash someone bash the damned terrorists. I'm glad Arafat died. He's probably the most influential terrorist ever. Bin Laden and others learned a lot from him. Yet world leaders attended his funeral!! That's a bunch of #%%$##@!!*!.

The problem with some of you on the left is that you believe so strongly that your way is the only way and that those who don't share your point of view are idiots. On the other hand, Christians who disagree with you would say that "you need God and need to repent." I'd rather have someone call me a sinner than an idiot. Why? Because most Christians and people with morals actually CARE. When Joseph the Leftie calls me an idiot I know he doesn't give a s--- about me. So, hell yeah I prefer morality over nihilism.

Once again: "HA-HA. In your faces! I'm glad Bush won."

REALLY funny timing Pepper, I'm "back" again after a few months of break too.

I don't mean to gloat, but...wait yes I do HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Holy crap we're so lucky we don't have to hear John Edwards and Kerry's wife's annoying voices anymore. Whew!

Ok, immaturity aside for a minute. Two topics:

What does everyone make of the Bin Laden tape that came out just before the election? (I hope we all heard about it, right?)

"Rock the Vote/Vote or Die/etc." -- Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this concept to me? How is the end result of this campaigning any different than saying this: "You! Idiot who doesn't know anything! You decide!" Shouldn't we be encouraging people to do more than just go push the button based on the two headlines they heard on MTV in the last month?

I love the smell of vitriol in the morning (or at 11pm)

To start, I don't have to move to Canada, though I do love maple syrup. I can stay here and fight vehemently for my beliefs. Why? Well, because it is my right. This is not a war of Conservative versus Liberal. This is a war of logic versus religious morality. The current presidents ideology is not rooted in logic. It is founded on devine providence and moral superiority. But thank the trees, I don't have to buy it and in fact I can and will voice my opinions heartily against it if I deem fit. That is why I am staying...if you don't like the freedom of speech gig you could always move to Afghanistan.

Personally, I don't give a communion wafer what Christians say or do except when they try to push their dream of a theocracy on me. Then I do get a bit miffed. After all isn't that what we are trying to destroy in muslim nations? Are we not trying to free them from religious persecution and oppression? We say women should be free to vote and show their face...and children should be able to fly kites and men should shave their faces and the children should not be forced to follow the Koran. We say that we are fighting against fundamentalist Muslim ideology. Is all of this just so that we can convert them to fundamentalist christianity... and if so which form? Catholic, methodist, baptist, evangelical, pentacostal, presbyterian, lutheran, zion, holiness, four square, episcopal, 7 day, mormon, scientist....should I go on? All of which fight amongst themselves over which side to crack the bible on. Religion has no place in politics due to the fact that logic stands on its own sect free...there is no my god is three entities your god is one...heaven and hell or heaven hell and purgatory crap. There is only logic and it is good.

Most of America, even the wealthiest sect, stands one paycheck away from bankruptsy. You tell that line about laziness and sub intellect to the man who just lost everything because he was downsized from his company due to the fact that someone in India will do his job at a penny on the dollar. And another thing...the welfare system is screwed but the problem is not the system it is who it awards. People are awarded for having babies. Something the religious right loves...be fruitful and multiply even if you can't afford it. Those in need who are disabled mentally and/or physically have to go through rings of fire to get assistance. This is due to the fact that the system is racially based and not need based. Once we erradicate the racial problems in the US the system will fix itself. But I do not blame those on assistance. Many who are on assistance now feel as though there is no way out. If they get a job they lose the health benefits and housing which help their children. This has kept many minorities in the system, who would be more than happy to earn their own living, from finding employment. But to say that those on assistance or those who are homeless or poor are of lesser intelligence or lazy is narrow minded and blind.

This is not the land of opportunity!! Far from it. The little guy is being put out of business by the walmartization of America everyday. This is not the age of the upstart entrepreneur. You cannot open a hot dog stand with the hopes of becoming a millionaire.
Sorry it just doesn't exist anymore. This is a global economy and we have to think on global terms. In the words of Fival the mouse "the streets are paved with cheese" well he found that they are not. There is no gold in them there hills.

We are not perfect. But if we just say "ok, whatever" to the government we never will be a perfect nation. This country was not founded on religion it was founded on fight, on the will of the people to free themselves from the constraints of government ordained religion. We do not fight for the majority but for those who live on the fringe. We fight for the man who wants his beliefs to be sacred not universal. I am still fighting...I will not settle for second best or whatever mentalities.


You know...saying haha we win and gloating is not exactly brotherly love. Regardless of who won there is alot to be fixed in this purple country of ours. Gloat all you want though some of us are out there with hammers and nails trying to peice it all back together again.

ohh and for the record...to those of you who do not share my pov, you are not idiots. I am by far the least intelligent person whom I know. My faults are too numerous to mention. But I do have convictions, I do know what it feels like to be on the sharp end of the insensitivity sword. I do know that regardless of how ignorant I may be there are some who will always see the world in black and white through blinders of security and comfort. My world is gray and I have felt the cold pavement on my skin. I know that the seperation between the us and the them is a very thin line. So please save your condesention for someone else. When the same person who calls me a sinner also calls my breathren lazy and states that they are on the ground floor of the bell curve, I do take offence. Joseph will only call you an idiot if you blame the man and not the system that created him. This as I said before is not a Pub/Dem problem it is a human problem.