Banned for no reason, and no support

The Damage feature was intended to provide a certain level of first person shooter-style functionality to you and your friends in wargaming. Believe it or not, the Lindens weren't thinking "this damage system could be used to wack unsuspecting victims that wander onto people's land" when they created that feature.

The Lindens hand us NUMEROUS features which we are expected to use in a curteous and social maner, not the least of which is scripted PUSHING. We have two choices, strip away all features with the potential for abuse (a LOT of features) or punish/remove abusers.




The "playground rules" reference was to retaliation and escalation in griefing, not making fun of someone. But ok. Adult rules. In the adult world if someone is a menace, you call the police and have them removed so they do not cause further harm to yourself or others. On the other hand if you want to meet their force with some force of your own you may find yourself in court right along side them for brawling. In the real world the law makes exceptions so you can defend yourself from imminent death or bodily harm. That is not a legitimate concern in SL.

May I also say it ruins potential fun? It's more enjoyable for me to turn around and wav a guy whos been attacking me instead of ARing someone and whining about it. The argument example is valid because thats all any conflict in SL really amounts too(certain, but rarer cases excluded).

I dunno, theres something I find appealing about vignilante justice in a game that advertises its self as allowing you to do anything.

I hear ya. Better if that person didn't start trouble to begin with. I'm just saying that if you work within the system by abstaining from retaliation and filing an abuse report, then you will be protected by the system. If you operate outside the system by taking justice into your own hands, then when that griefer files an abuse report against YOU...the Lindens will arrive only to see what appears to be a slugfest between two people. They don't have the time, resources, and frankly the desire to get to the bottom of "who started it". So it's up to you.

Right, but people have security systems that do just that, and as far as I can tell, no action is taken against them. I guess what I want is clarity and consistency.

As for your point below in response to Kayin, in RL, we do not usually have the luxury of calling the cops when someone is firing a machine gun at us and I doubt there is any court around that would penalize the landowner for retaliating, as you indicated.

How about bouncers? I have seen guys get the tar beaten out of them for starting incidents in bars and niteclubs. I go back and the same bouncers are there, year after year. Do bouncers enjoy some sort of immunity? If so why? It is private property just like my yard and home. 90+% of the incidents I have been party to did not involve the unruly patron employing deadly force, yet the bouncers wasted no time in pummeling them, sometimes severely.

In my experience, if you are being griefed you can contact a Linden and they normally take care of the problem immediately. So normally you DO have that luxury. But sometimes the Linden on duty will tell you they are too busy to come help. This is your chance to say "I understand you can't come now. This person is being disruptive right now, mind if I orbit them?". If you get the Linden nod on record you are covered AND you can report them for abuse. This works better if you already have a reputation for good behavior.

But I'm getting the feeling we are hitting this issue from two different directions. While you guys are chomping at the bit to lay some firepower on someone you feel deserves it...*I* am thinking that we need to have disruptive individuals suspended before they move on to other targets. If someone is causing a great deal of ruckus on your land, trying out your newest gun on them could spoil a golden opportunity to have them suspended for a few richly deserved days/weeks.

Actually, I am not chomping at the bit. I have shot someone outside of Rausch or Jessie once, and that was because he made the mistake of standing on a 16m2 that was public - back when we still had such a thing. I bought the 16 he was on, damage enabled it, and shot him. This was because he was running a script (while I was setting up a home for a customer), that made him squat and squeeze out turds which promptly flew up and danced in front of our noses. Daniel Linden showed up and all he had to say to me was "interesting tactic". I doubt I would get away with that now. I don't know whether to be happy or sad about that.

As you have pointed out, this is not RL. We don't have fear of actual physical injury to contend with. On that same token; what does it hurt to bounce someone if they are griefing you on your own land? Why does it constitute abuse? I reiterate, many people are running scripts on their property that send people off world forcing them to relog, which should be a violation if you accept that defending your property is a violation. Yet they are allowed to continue do so, even for the "crime" of flying your vehicle over their land.

I want a clear and definitive set of rules pertaining to these issues. I will abide by them. I have trouble abiding by inconsistent and/or undefined policies.

Thats definitely true. Like I said earlier, I find that griefers -- now not hard core griefers but your typical gun wielding fools are a part of secondlife thats somewhat important. I enjoy an element of conflict and self resolution. ARing is dull, firing back is interesting. I don't eve n necessarily want to see them banned.

Then again the community as a whole seems to be anti conflict as they seem to get enough of it in their normal lifes, so maybe it's just me.

It seems that the biggest problem with all this is the lack of definition from the Lindens on what's kosher and what ain't.

Is there a difference between "Damage-enabled" and "Ok to shoot"? If so, what is it?

Are there legitimate uses for "Damage-enabled, but not Ok to shoot"? If I Damage enable my land, does that mean that I may kill people there, but they may not kill me? May an entire group of passers-by come by and kill each other?

If it isn't "Ok to shoot", except in specific sims, why not remove the "Damage-enabled" option entirely except for Jessie and Rausch? Require that the participants make use of PVP systems like in Darklife or Chinatown.


I prefer a system that keeps the damage-enabled areas allowed, and permits them to be a free-for-all, but perhaps gives a more obvious message when we enter a damage-enabled area.

Do you take damage from falling if the area is damage enabled? If so then there is one 'non-shooter' application of damage enable uses. So damage doesnt always have to involve 2 people. Granted the current system is kind of silly.

Exactly how I feel. I don't mind the "home defense" crowd, I just want it to be easy to avoid their parcels.

see this is what pisses me off, i emailed them the day i was banned, STILL NO DAMN RESPONCE...
been a week like this is the service we PAY for? hmm id rather go play TSO alteast i know the support there dont go back on there word and take weeks to look into something. Plus i was told by a linden[ (edited) cant say names tho haha that he would call the office to get someone to get here and talk to me in game but because of my post here he stopped helping me

******* Linden: People threaten to storm out of SL on a regular basis, loudly, on the forums...it is unfortunate, but there you have it

See how much they really care about us? They got our $ and we keep giving, hey i know this guy he dont like this guy lets ban him and not actually look into it, since we got his $. Also since i took this to the public in Ahern. i was given a few very intresting notecards about other people who have been unfairly banned, tried to argue and shot down cause no one was behind them. Im sick of this. if u want a copy of all the convo's from these people and the one's i personally have gotten threw an unfair ban email me @ [email]Sasuke_V3@hotmail.com[/email]

Are you banned from logging in to SL or just banned from GNO Island? If you're just banned from the island, was the person you shot named Reno Parks? If yes, he and another own the sim and has every right to ban whom ever he pleases, for any reason. I don't see anything the Linden's can do about that.

This whole thing seems like a "I didn't see a speed limit sign, so that must mean I can go as fast as I want." situation.

Just a note, please be assured that we do individually investigate the circumstances of every Abuse Report we receive. if you are suspended from SL, please address your concerns in an email to [email]abuse-manager@lindenlab.com[/email], as this is the only way they will be considered.

Jeska, I'm pleased with the service here but understand that when you type such things the prevailing mental image is that of the David Spade character in the Capital One commercials saying 'no' to everyone regardless of their question.

The overworked, understaffed LL does not have time to deal with every 'hoser' who still thinks his crime was the exception and something he should not be punished for. We do appreciate your disclaimer but it's not necessary. The criminal will always claim innocence and the government will always pretend they care about our perceptions.

Just ask your CE-NO! Or can't you because he is in Fres-NO? OK, enough nonsense from Bru-NO!

I have emailed you about this, support and abuse more then a week ago, no responce, no confirmation you got it NOTHING its what ive come to expect of LL.

Sometimes no answer IS the answer.

Last edited by Jeska Linden : Yesterday at 08:36 PM. Reason: remove misrepresentation/name

See how quick they can cover themselves yet looking into there screw ups it takes forever or dosent get going at all.

It's a total mystery why getting an amicable fellow like yourself back into the game isn't Linden Lab's top priority. This might be a job for Skully and Moulder.

Ha! I believe!

Aimee - That one almost got coffee through the nose but I managed to just spit it across my office. Very funny!!!!

Well yeah eventualy shit happens when you shoot people just like that.

i got shot once in Jessie , by a stupid monkey.
But that was my own fault cause i was new and i didn't know what that 100% heart icon meant.

SL doesn't really have a good PVP system.
There for pvp sort of sucks in SL.

I never pvp in SL.
I do sometimes in online RPG systems that have a good and fair pvp system.
With the whole built in system and the weapons and the armor and the weapon damage.

Would you like some cheese and crackers with that whine?

The truth is out there.

*whistles main theme*

Yes, there is a legal self defense exception if you are facing imminent death, or great bodily harm, to respond with force that may also cause death or great bodily harm. In SL we are threatened with force that may cause pushing, teleporting, or re-logging. It would seem to make sense to be able to respond with like force. No one is going to die or be grievously injured in SL. The worst that could happen to them is the same sort of thing that they are trying to do to you.

I believe that you take your chances when you enter damage enabled land. If someone takes a shot at you.... well you have entered a "combat area." It's kind of like knowing that there are bad areas in the city in which you live. If there is an area rife with robbery and assault, maybe taking a stroll through there is a poor plan. As for "mutual consent" combat, this would be fine, but still presents problems. Suppose I'm in a combat sim, where multiple avatars are shooting it out, and I shoot someone who walks around around a hill. Now this avatar, that I shot, had just wandered into the sim. Should I be AR'ed because this avatar hadn't given consent to be part of the battle?

It seems that the best solutions should be that you take your chances in damaged enabled land.

I do, however, support having a way for persons to avoid such land. Maybe it should turn a certain color on the overall map (ande mini-map) so you can easily avoid it.