Banned for no reason, and no support
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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02-14-2005 12:10
From: Tcoz Bach There is a warning in SL that explicitly states that if you see the heart icon, be careful, you can be damaged. It is a Tip of the Day.
People can say what they want about the "intent" of this message, but to me, it's clear. And I don't know any section of the TOS that explicitly lays out rules of the "must be consensual" for damage enabled land anywhere on the grid. By explicitly I mean actually clearly states the fact, not a sited passage that "likely applies".
If you don't want to be damaged, turn damage off or leave the area. It's no good for games anyway since anybody can make a 1-shot-1-kill gun effortlessly. If steps are taken to control those weapons, then the shooter will require one of those weapons, negating possibility of the crime (if proper script controls are in place, like a "gun registry" for the land, which is something I actually use under the hood at the Vorago).
Jessie was different only because there was no safe land, and never would be, because damage is perma enabled. Even the land owner can't (or couldn't) change that. And I remember people complaining about that (I bought land in Jessie and got attacked I can't believe it!).
If you were banned for shooting somebody on damage enabled land, I'd say, shame on ye Lindens for confusing us. After reading that warning, I would expect a firefight anytime I crossed such a boundary.
However, that is, IF you were banned SOLELY for shooting somebody fair and square on damage enabled land. Not from over the border so you yourself could not be attacked, and not repetitively after being asked to stop (even though I would then say it is incumbent on the person that doesn't want to get shot to get to safe ground or ask the owner to disable damage).
This is a very, very old debate. For my part, if I enable damage on my land, I know what I'm getting into and expect it, and I'm not going to hold people responsible for taking advantage of it. My god can ANYTHING get done without widespread approval anymore?
This is exactly why I built a weapons system that in no way requires "real" damage. Well I am with you regarding Lindens being unclear about the rules. THAT is a very old debate and one that rages im every facet of SL dicipline. As for Damage-on allowing free attacks on someone. I don't think I would want the rules to go that way. If I'm flying from point A to point B I will be zooming over numerous parcels of land. I would rather not be shot out of the sky like it was quayle season because some of those parcels have Damage On. Going into a "kill-me please" zone should be a process that grabs my attention and allows me an opportunity to reconsider...just as it is done in Jesse and Billy's land. |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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02-14-2005 12:15
From: Aimee Weber I would rather not be shot out of the sky like it was quayle season... There's a season for hunting moronic ex-vice presidents? Where do I apply? On a serious note, I think the Lindens need to clarify this policy. Ambiguous rules lead to discontent and claims of favoritism, etc. I have read that using pushguns anywhere without consent is not ok. Is this true or also a case by case determination?
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
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02-14-2005 12:18
While I respect the notion of being "obvious", fact is, I can do it, and it's not a violation of the TOS to do so. Damage enablement has an obvious reason and utilizing it is well within my right as a land owner that can throw the switch. Again, there may be what people "think", there may even be what the Lindens are doing (though I would expect all the assault weapon banning has more to it than, "you can't kill people here"  , but that has nothing to do with the fact that I can damage enable my land, which means I can kill you on it, and you can kill me on it, and that's what it's for, and that's what it's always been for, and that's what it says it's for. NOW I'm hearing that people would expect me to be suspended for it. Banned if I keep doing it. /sigh. If it's illegal, don't give me the capability to do it so straightforwardly. Enable it for some sims and disable it everywhere else, or at any time, ANY piece of land can turn into a warzone and any paying player confused about why they are being hassled for it has my sympathy. "Push" items are not illegal. I use them for the bouncers in the Vorago and have seen Lindens bounce on them. Using a "push" gun as a workaround exploit to hararass people is a different matter. The damn things can throw you right off the grid, and what's funny is, EVERYBODY thinks they are l33t when they get one, not understanding that it actually demonstrates noobishness (I mean we all know c'mon get over it). There are very few ways to defend against a push gun. In fact one total idiot in the welcome area was bragging about how he was using a push object to eject people from the Ahern welcome area. Funny, I don't see him anymore. In such a case, the offense is obvious. However, like in Unreal, there is a "force" weapon, very much like a push gun. The legit use is certainly there.
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** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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02-14-2005 12:29
From: Nolan Nash I have read that using pushguns anywhere without consent is not ok. Is this true or also a case by case determination? Yes this is true, though as mentioned I think restrictions are relaxed in the aforementioned fight sims. From: Tcoz Bach
While I respect the notion of being "obvious", fact is, I can do it, and it's not a violation of the TOS to do so.
If I enable damage in the Vorago, I'm doing so because I want to shoot and kill you without you having to be tied to the game. Hell I may just want to stand on the roof and shoot anybody that comes over my land.
And, they can shoot back. It's not like they're defenseless.
NOW I'm hearing that people would expect me to be suspended for it. Banned if I keep doing it. ?
Can do it? yes. Not a violation?...mmm I think that may be wrong. Consult your local Linden to be sure. Taking away "Damage On" features from your land just because you need permission would end localized war gaming among consenting friends. I don't think that is a good idea. If "Damage ON" does signify "permission to kill", or if it eventually does, then I would like to see a feature added to the client that could help those of us that would rather not play avoid such areas. Perhaps have them highlighted on the map, or have a self imposed parcel restriction in my preferences that prevents me from accidentally entering damage zones. But why do you want to shoot people that don't want to be shot? You can keep people off your land using your land access list. |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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02-14-2005 12:49
From: Aimee Weber Yes this is true, though as mentioned I think restrictions are relaxed in the aforementioned fight sims. (In response to: "I have read that using pushguns anywhere without consent is not ok. Is this true or also a case by case determination?" I know they can be used in kill zones like rausch and jessie, however, I have read and heard that if a homeowner is griefed, that owners have been suspended when they used a push weapon in retaliation on the griefer, even if their land is damage enabled and/or the griefing party attacked with a push weapon. Seems ass-backwards to me that a land owner is allowed to turn damage on and then can be penalized for using weapons to defend their land.
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-14-2005 12:54
From: Aimee Weber But why do you want to shoot people that don't want to be shot? You can keep people off your land using your land access list. I hate combat in SL. I would like it better if all weapons were removed. That said... What you just said is one of the most widely spread myths of SL. The land tools are absolutely and utterly useless for their intended function.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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02-14-2005 12:58
Interesting. If people get suspended for defending their own land with push guns, what about those #$%#$% THRICE-DAMNED asshats that use parcel security scripts that teleport people home for flying over their land? Are these people suspended as well?? If so, I'm making a list!
-Ghoti
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"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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02-14-2005 12:59
From: Nolan Nash (In response to: "I have read that using pushguns anywhere without consent is not ok. Is this true or also a case by case determination?" I know they can be used in kill zones like rausch and jessie, however, I have read and heard that if a homeowner is griefed, that owners have been suspended when they used a push weapon in retaliation on the griefer, even if their land is damage enabled and/or the griefing party attacked with a push weapon. Seems ass-backwards to me that a land owner is allowed to turn damage on and then can be penalized for using weapons to defend their land. It goes back to playground rules. Escalation is not the answer. If you are being greifed you need to get the Lindens on the case so the griefing individual can be removed from causing harm to others. |
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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02-14-2005 13:00
From: Reitsuki Kojima I hate combat in SL. I would like it better if all weapons were removed. That said...
What you just said is one of the most widely spread myths of SL. The land tools are absolutely and utterly useless for their intended function. LOL Ok. I stand corrected. Though I still think the Abuse report is a better home defense measure than a push gun. |
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-14-2005 13:07
From: Ghoti Nyak Interesting. If people get suspended for defending their own land with push guns, what about those #$%#$% THRICE-DAMNED asshats that use parcel security scripts that teleport people home for flying over their land? Are these people suspended as well?? If so, I'm making a list!
-Ghoti That's an example of using a script function as it was intended. Don't ask me what the difference is exactly.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
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02-14-2005 13:11
From: Ghoti Nyak Interesting. If people get suspended for defending their own land with push guns, what about those #$%#$% THRICE-DAMNED asshats that use parcel security scripts that teleport people home for flying over their land? Are these people suspended as well?? If so, I'm making a list!
-Ghoti Ya actually I wouldn't mind seeing those banned from SL as well. I think what is starting to emerge from all of this is a fuzzy list of feature requests. It seems we need: 1. A better way of securing our homes so we don't have to resort to TOS violations or rude scripts. 2. A way to flag parcels, not just for damage, but for consent ("Warning This is a KILL ME ZONE! ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK!" . 3. A way to prevent users from accidentally entering the aformentioned "kill me" zones. |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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02-14-2005 13:42
Hmmm... is it possible to make a script that when placed in an attachment, checks for the avatar being hit by a pushgun bullet and then, if on the avatar's land, teleports the shooter home?
Wonder what the legality of such a thing would be.
-Ghoti
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"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-14-2005 13:46
From: Ghoti Nyak Hmmm... is it possible to make a script that when placed in an attachment, checks for the avatar being hit by a pushgun bullet and then, if on the avatar's land, teleports the shooter home?
Wonder what the legality of such a thing would be.
-Ghoti Perfectly legal... The problem would be making it smart enough to detect push bullets without making it detect legit things too (Vehicles, assorted attachments like jetpacks, etc) Of course, once your hit with a push bullet, its too late to teleport the shooter home 
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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02-14-2005 13:51
Well, unless I'm actually in combat, I almost always wear an anti-push shield, so the bullet would hit, 'bounce off' and *ZAP* they'd get a ride home.
I was just trying to think of a situation where the griefing shooter would get a taste of their own medicine without the shootee having to get in trouble for shooting back.
But really, I'd rather just see the 'port home' security scripts banned.
-Ghoti
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"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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Annah Zamboni
Banannah Annah
Join date: 2 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,022
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02-14-2005 13:51
From: Ghoti Nyak Hmmm... is it possible to make a script that when placed in an attachment, checks for the avatar being hit by a pushgun bullet and then, if on the avatar's land, teleports the shooter home?
Wonder what the legality of such a thing would be.
-Ghoti (If ever possible) Whats to stop someone from just making a gun that TP's the "target" (ie an innocent) home? Or put a script on their land so when you fly over you are TP'd home. Even if the target has to be on your land to TP them home, the script would make life hell if used as a home security system that ends up griefing innocent people flying by. |
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Bruno Buckenburger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 464
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02-14-2005 13:53
From: Ghoti Nyak Interesting. If people get suspended for defending their own land with push guns, what about those #$%#$% THRICE-DAMNED asshats that use parcel security scripts that teleport people home for flying over their land? Are these people suspended as well?? If so, I'm making a list!
-Ghoti Those people should definitely be warned and/or suspended. I'm not thrilled with the idea of getting shot but I accept that if I go into a sim that warns me this could happen, I shouldn't whine. HOWEVER, if I'm just cruising around minding my own business and wind up back at my home because someone has a script turned on to do that, I'm pissed. It's happened a few times and I've gone back looking for the offending lot with no luck. Is there a way to scan a property to see what scripts are running on it? If so, that would be a big help. |
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Ghoti Nyak
καλλιστι
Join date: 7 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,078
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02-14-2005 13:54
From: Annah Zamboni Or put a script on their land so when you fly over you are TP'd home. Even if the target has to be on your land to TP them home, the script would make life hell if used as a home security system that ends up griefing innocent people flying by. Such parcel security scripts EXIST and that is exactly what I am complaining about!!!!!! I get kicked from vehicles all the time flying over land that someone thinks needs to be freakin' Fort Knox. -Ghoti
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"Sometimes I believe that this less material life is our truer life, and that our vain presence on the terraqueous globe is itself the secondary or merely virtual phenomenon." ~ H.P. Lovecraft
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David Valentino
Nicely Wicked
Join date: 1 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,941
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02-14-2005 14:00
I don't know if it's just me, but I've seen a huge increase in folks locking thier land. If I try and fly around low enough to really check things out while exploring, I run into the "no entrance" thing alot. Are people really getting that anti-social in SL? Hell..when I build something, I want people to stop by and explore and check it out.
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David Lamoreaux
Owner - Perilous Pleasures and Extreme Erotica Gallery
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Tcoz Bach
Tyrell Victim
Join date: 10 Dec 2002
Posts: 973
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02-14-2005 17:56
While I can understand somebody asking the "why", the community is not owed an explanation for something that is perfectly within my right as a land owner. The "why" is irrelevant. Until it's illegal, nobody in SL owes anybody an explanation for why they do what they do until they start paying your land fee.
It's the "why don't you answer your phone" question. I don't have to. That's why. Anything more invites an attack on personal thought and as we all know ends up being a witch hunt on these boards.
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** ...you want to do WHAT with that cube? **
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Annah Zamboni
Banannah Annah
Join date: 2 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,022
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02-14-2005 19:23
From: Ghoti Nyak Such parcel security scripts EXIST and that is exactly what I am complaining about!!!!!!
I get kicked from vehicles all the time flying over land that someone thinks needs to be freakin' Fort Knox.
-Ghoti Now I know scripts exist that kick you to a corner of a sim or away just for flying over. Are you saying there are scripts that TP me home when I fly over them? Never seen that. My only point was that your wish would be worse than the current situation if abused. Edit: Wow! I just read some other threads. Some of these scripts do TP you home! LOL! That is overboard! *lights torch and grabs pitchfork* |
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
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02-14-2005 19:35
From: Aimee Weber It goes back to playground rules. Escalation is not the answer. If you are being greifed you need to get the Lindens on the case so the griefing individual can be removed from causing harm to others. Eh, then why should we be able to even turn on damage? Isn't that an escalation in and of it's self? What is the point of being able to damage enable your land then? Maybe I just want to toss their ass and then ban them before they get back because I am busy and don't have time to stop uploading, building, etc., to involve a Linden? It's kind of like handing someone a gun (RL) and telling them they can never use it.
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“Time's fun when you're having flies.” ~Kermit
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Kayin Zugzwang
A Superior Grouch
Join date: 7 Jun 2004
Posts: 269
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02-14-2005 19:51
Besides, playground rules are for 12 year olds. We're all adults here -- well -- most of us are atleast. When was the last time you went crying home to mommy because someone made fun of you? I mean, if you think about it...
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Zuzi Martinez
goth dachshund
Join date: 4 Sep 2004
Posts: 1,860
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02-14-2005 20:07
people please you're losing sight of the real issue here. this thread is about mocking the griefer, not about having a meaningful discussion of home defense ethics.
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pandastrong Fairplay
all bout the BANG POW NOW
Join date: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,920
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02-14-2005 20:18
From: Nolan Nash
What is the point of being able to damage enable your land then?
I just like the heart at the top of the screen. 
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"Honestly, you are a gem -- fun, creative, and possessing strong social convictions. I think LL should be paying you to be in their game."~ Ulrika Zugzwang on the iconography of pandastrong in the media "That's no good. Someone is going to take your place as SL's cutest boy while you're offline."~ Ingrid Ingersoll on the topic of LL refusing to pay pandastrong for being in their game.
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Codi Bliss
Born again newbie
Join date: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 52
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02-14-2005 20:55
From: Zuzi Martinez people please you're losing sight of the real issue here. this thread is about mocking the griefer, not about having a meaningful discussion of home defense ethics. Sarcasm aside Zuzi, there is a fundamental principle here. Being present in a parcel of land that has damage enabled should not be green light for ammo heads to take pot shots at you. Most flights across SL will take you unknowingly across such areas. I for one do not expect to be shot at, and forced to relog, because i unwittingly flew across a damage enabled area. |